velcroMedic1987

I get it, what can possably happen in that extra 2 minutes....hmmmm since fire growth doubles every minute, lets take a 1,000 sq/ft apt. with an 10 x 12 bedroom fully involved at the 8 minute mark (thats 120 sq/ft or 12%). at 9 minutes its 240 square feet and at 10 minutes its 480 Square feet. So in 2 extra minutes it went from 12% to 48%. Want to give it a few more minutes, whats the harm? Boy I hope they closed the door on the way out or lots of other tenants will be in extreme danger.
There is a business model for the fire service, it was developed in 1910 by the National Board of Fire Underwriters. They base insurance premiums on fire coverage. Since most properties require insurance (for a morgage), and the FD is a fire insurance policy, a good dept reduces the price insurance companies charge for property insurance.
NFPA 1710 clearly states that this minimum standard is based on a 2,000 sq/ft single family dwelling without a basement (and minimal exposures). This does not discribe many properties in NYC.
This is refered to as doing more with less. Interesting that many medics call SSM (system status management) system sacrificing medics, because very few of those systems manage to retain personnel the way most municipal services do.
Actually FD's are an economic engine. Based on insurance cost reductions that range from 8 to 12 to 1. That means for every dollar of one persons taxes spent , $8 - $12 is reduced on there property insurance.
You never suggested doing things better, you suggested doing more with less.
If you think thats such a great response then you are use to a service level that is so poor, you do not know a good service from a poor one.

I do have to say I'm happy to see nobody getting shut down at night. What may have gotten mentioned, but swept under the rug is how many companies are taken out of service citywide during the day. I would say an average of 15-25 per day. That includes companies out for all day training, partial day training classes like extrication, or rope training, or Medical exams while the rig is being sent in for routine maintenance. That's a gamble we take every day, and in a few cases I can think of in my experience, have led to fatal consequences.
Never mind when E-70, L-53, E-52, L-52, or one of the Midtown companies goes out, and they have to be filled. Anyone here from 92 Engine can relate to what I'm saying. 92 to 52 for the afternoon, and 92 misses a first due job that ended up going to a 3rd alarm. First due engine coming from a distance because 92 is up in Riverdale. Robbing one to pay the other.
NWFD, 8 minutes is a very long time. In my opinion, the city needs a few more firehouses built and opened, not less. Every time a company is taken out of service, regardless of time of day, a gamble is taken by the city. I could go on about other factors affecting response times, like companies being way out of their first due area doing Building Inspections. Fallback is where we modify responses to reported fires and emergencies because we're trying to conserve units. With the amount of fire duty the city has had over the past few months, we have gone to Fallback more times than I care to count, and, at least once or twice, we went to fallback citywide. Nighttime, statistically is when most fatal fires occur. I would rather have all my "toys in the toybox" ready to go at 0200, than be missing a first or second due company because they are out of service for the night. In places like Queens and Staten Island, where the companies are spread a little further apart, waiting for that second due company can be like an eternity because the run for them is sometimes 8 minutes, sometimes longer.

Heres the deal, a working fire in a single/two story residential home with a great distance between the next exposure is a lot different then a fire in a multiple story, high rise, or a row house fire. Your department might be able to work with limited crews because of the lack of exposure problem and you might not need 6 guys on a truck because you don't need 6 guys on a truck. When you're dealing with the extreme hazards that the FDNY deals with in fire spread, property loss, and life loss, an abundance of firemen is what you need in a short period of time... not 10 minutes from now. Your department might have to deal with help coming from 10 minutes away when you have a fire, with limited manpower, because well lets face it, its volunteer. Its what you have to work with. You don't have the staffing, or even know who is going to show up when unless you have duty crews running. Its not a knock on you or your department, but its just the facts, if you could wish for 1 thing at a fire, what would it be? 9 times out of 10 for a volunteer department, and I would bet a lot of money on it, would be more man power in the initial stages of the attack.
In order to successfully attack, and stop the progression of the fire, you need to do so in a highly effective, organized swarm. By removing a body from each company you effectively start to increase the time it takes to accomplish certain tasks. Venting, searching, stretching hose up multiple floors, the more people or entire company you remove from the equation, the harder it will be to accomplish your goals in a timely fashion before additional resources need to be called in... then when you call for additional resources, you're now stripping other areas of their first due companies, and backfilling which means a larger coverage area for the back filled companies to protect, which means you're now stretching your resources even thinner, over a broader area.
Your argument of having a engine and truck company is a little absurd, and you know that already, but lets be honest, with the population density that NYC has, the number or working fire / call volume alone that they run, the thought that anyone would want to place the lives of the citizens they elected into a game of chance is beyond me. I don't know much about FDNY's operating procedures, but they look like a well oiled machine every time they go to work. It is that well oiled machine, coupled with the the fact the swarm and overtake the fire like ants on honey, makes them very efficient at what they do.

Pretty good on what planet? You may think a 10 minute response time is good but I don't. Not unlike most taxpayers I expect you there right after I hang up the phone (sarcasm). 10 minutes is not a good response time.
Relevance = 0.
If there's a firehouse that is closed because the city thinks it can play russian roulette with my life and my neighbors lives you're damn right that's a good argument. The FD isn't arguing to put a firehouse on every corner, they're just saying keep the ones they've got and keep them properly staffed.
FDNY routinely has to relocate companies from one COUNTY to another COUNTY (boroughs). They also have to reduce the response for some alarms because of the reduce availability. This all translates into greater exposure and in a business model exposure = liablity = a bad idea. Yet the city continues to gamble with our lives.
Thank you for the intelligent response. NOT.
Just an educated guess, the population shifts from the outerboroughs to Manhattan during the day and the opposite at night. Others have already told you about the bars, clubs, theaters, service industry, restaurants, etc. that keep a very high population even at night. While the location of the population density may shift a little bit, 8 million is still a stupid-high number of people.
I find it hard to believe that you're arguing about this issue.
Relevance = 0
Wow, where do you find the time to post here with that kind of work? You must be exhausted. One call every other day and you're telling guys that do 68 fires a day how they should be staffed? Come on now.
Eight minutes is a very long time, especially if your house is on fire. Yes it may be the national standard but nothing says you shouldn't strive for better. FDNY has a remarkable response time given the city demographics and they shouldn't be screwing with it before cutting the number of times ball fields get mowed or tennis courts get built. Life safety is expensive and you shouldn't screw with it.
I've agreed with you on many points in the past but I think you're way off base in this thread. Time to move on.

Date: 12-17-10
Time: 0855
Location: Chase Bank, Warburton Avenue, Village of Hastings
Frequency:
Units Operating: Hastings PD, Dobbs Ferry PD, Westchester County PD, MTA PD
Weather Conditions: clear
Description Of Incident: Bank robbery and perp search. WCPD K-9 tracked to southbound platform of RR station in Hastings and units are waiting for shutdown of power and train traffic to continue search.
0939 - confirmed power off, all 4 tracks. K-9 continuing southbound from station.
1000 - aviation on scene, conducting thermal imaging search.
1045 - area checked with negative results, K-9 track terminated south of station IAO Southside Avenue.
Reporters: Velcro
Writer:

Know what, guys? We here are not all firefighters. There are plenty of ems and hospital care providers who try to post intelligent stuff here, and very often get picked apart by non ems and non hospital people. Then there are the cops among us who try to post and get jammed up by their own IAD. Only FF's seem exempt from most of the criticism that keeps the rest of us from posting.

Date: 10-17-10
Time: 0115
Location: Thornwood Town Centre Shopping Plaza on Route 141
Frequency: Mt Pleasant PD, County PD, Pleasantville PD, North Castle PD, and more
Units Operating: Mt Pleasant and Pleasantville PD (Initial) Mutual Aid Below*; EMS units, and Westchester County Medical Examiner's Office
Weather Conditions: clear
Description Of Incident: Initially call for big fight at Finnegans Bar then hotline reporting officer down and shots fired. At least four PO and two perps transported to WMC-ER. One perp likely from GSW and officesr stable, struck by fleeing vehicle or other injuries. "Hotline" mutual aid request and at least 20-30 different PD's responding to scene, hospital and other locations.
Lohud reports that driver vehicle is DOA at hospital.
Reporters: velcro
Writer: velcro
http://www.lohud.com...le/201010170421
Mutual Aid Police Departments:
Pleasantville
WCPD- Patrol units, Crime Scene Unit
NYSP
New Castle
North Castle
White Plains: ESU, Supervisor
Greenburgh
MTA
DEP
Yonkers: ESU Truck 4, ESU Sgt, R/C 300 (Patrol Lt.), R/C 103
Bedford
Hastings
Irvington
Ardsley

Date: 09/29/10
Time: 9:20 PM
Location: Saw Mill Parkway -> Rumsey Rd -> Side Streets -> Yonkers Av -> Midland Av -> McLean Av
Frequency: WCPD, YPD
Units Operating: YPD 2nd Pct, 3rd Pct, 4th Pct, ESU, 900, 300, Westchester County PD and Aviation, Empress EMS, County Towing
Weather Conditions: Cloudy
Description Of Incident: Vehicle pursuit by County PD off Saw Mill through Yonkers until supsect vehicle rammed YPD car on Mclean Av near Central Av. Suspect in custody, transported by EMS to WMC, officers injured transported for treatment. Vehicle possibly stolen, plates improper.
Reporters:
Writer: VelcroMedic1987