firecapt32

are we damed if we do and damed if we dont?? osha and every other organization says things like 2 in/2 out. We are doing more with les--we all know that/ BUT what if some one gets hurt?? will the village /town/city/district take the responsibility and say that they were understaffed??
My thoughs every Fire Chief should go on the record with their AHJ stating that they are understaffed but they will do what ever it takes to protect the public but that they understand the ramifications of what can happen if a firefighter gets injured.
It might not help but at least some one is on record if the shi* hits the fan.
again just my view being a incident commander is not an easy job and not for the weak at heart.

are we damed if we do and damed if we dont?? osha and every other organization says things like 2 in/2 out. We are doing more with les--we all know that/ BUT what if some one gets hurt?? will the village /town/city/district take the responsibility and say that they were understaffed??
My thoughs every Fire Chief should go on the record with their AHJ stating that they are understaffed but they will do what ever it takes to protect the public but that they understand the ramifications of what can happen if a firefighter gets injured.
It might not help but at least some one is on record if the shi* hits the fan.
again just my view being a incident commander is not an easy job and not for the weak at heart.

In the past few days I have seen at least a dozen pictures (on multiple sites) of different depts. in the area driving around town with Santa in the hose bed or in the bucket of a tower ladder (in one case, he just missed hitting a traffic light).
Most depts do not allow members to ride in these locations because of the potential for death or serious injury. How can we ignore our own policies and allow this?
And if the answer is to please the children.........consider how happy they would be if you run over santa.
Can anyone justify this?

ok heres my take on the subject--and please do not take it as gospel--"Structure fire" is defined by NYS NIFERS. any fire in/on or under s structure.
"Working fire" --here comes that age and wisdome factor---comes from when the Officer would communicate with either the members of the crew or base department that the members were in fact "going to work"
there are lots of fire house/department jargon out there that has been a carryover form many years ago. We are steep in tridiation.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL AND TO ALL A SAFE HOILDAY

Years ago, NFIRS defined a structure fire as a fire that actually did damage to the structure. There were two categories in the Type of Fire sectionof the incident report that addressed this. One was Structure fire as I just defined, the other was Fire in a structure that did not cause damage to the structure. I thought that was a pretty good criteria and I don't know why it changed. It might be that the fire service wanted to say they had a lot of structure fires and one way to do that it to widen the category to include things like "Food on the stove/out on arrival."
far as Working fire goes, I always considered a worker as a fire that required the FULL use of at least one 1 3/4 line. That's not pulling it and giving a squirt to a trashcan. It's when you need the full 100gpm. So a car fire is not a worker. Three cars in a shopping center lot is. A garbage can fire in a private dwelling is not a worker. The same trash can in a nursing home may. A "using all companies" is not necessarily a worker either. Here in the Virginia Beach area, they use the term "Working incident" for a non-fire incident that has all companies committed.
So, I would say that a working fire is like pornography...it's sometimes hard to define, but after a little experience , you'll know it when you see it.

Their is a standardized inservice program in NYS. It is required for all career ff's. And once again we circle bac to the fact that until there is one standard for all FIRE FIGHTERS we will always have problems. Andy, I know a number that do not even meet the OSHA minimum (remember that the "8" hour does not include all of the requirements).

I'm not sure of your background or experience but you are treading on very thin ice with the volunteer/career comments. Please DO NOT start a career vs. volunteer debate; see the forum guidelines for an explanation on why we won't tolerate that.
As for your question...
I don't give a damn if the crew coming to help my local FD when my house is on fire is career or volunteer SO LONG AS they're properly trained and equipped to do the job and have the appropriate numbers of personnel. If it's a career truck with one FF or a volunteer truck with five guys but only one "qualified" FF, you can keep 'em.
What is the benefit of "local knowledge" when you have fire blowing out the windows in an ordinary construction building? The engine guys know how to stretch hose no matter what street they're on and the ladder guys know how to ventilate the building regardless of its address? Getting there may be a momentary issue but with GPS, computers, smart-phones, maps and, oh yeah, the radio if all else fails, they're going to get there.

Simple. You know what you're getting. Usually 4 Interior certified firefighters, including a company officer, no matter what time of day or night. And you know it's going to take the volunteer at least 2-5 minutes to roll a truck, if no one is in the firehouse. Career gets out in less then 2, on average/
Nothing against the volunteers departments, but manpower attendance is a crapshoot.They could be the best department around, but daytime attendance to calls are hard. In many departments, DPW/Highway Departments staff the first due. Chances are the young guys aren't going to be around Friday or Saturday night. I know of few departments that have mutual aid standards, but more that don't. And what if that department can't get a crew? So now you'vr got an IC having to request anothers department, and he's been waiting for a company to arrive in 5 minutes, now they cant get a good head on the fire because they've been waiting for 15 minutes.
Also, career departments routinely train with each other, and are familiar with that city's challenges, firefighters, etc.
This has nothing to do with paid or volunteer. The IC wants to know what he is getting, and given FD staffing levels, it's manpower where everyone is on the same training and operation level.
If things are going to change, serious improvement needs to be made (like a college dorm program), and response attendance numbers need to be standard and quick. The way Westchester is right now, it's hard to be a volunteer.

1) It would more likely just change the bias. 2) Under ICS, the coordinators are "resource officers" and the AHJ is the person with the responsability for those operating at an incident.
3) If a responder or equipment are injured or lost there may be liability that under your concept would switch from the requesting agency to the county.

The Westchester County Department of Emergency Services need to have its roof replaced. It has been in disrepair for years, there has been injuries due to slip and fall on wet floors and equipment and gear getting wet from the leaky roof. Tonight the Westchester County Board of Legislators has the replacement of the roof on their agenda. A bond Act was presented to the Board thirteen months ago to fund the replacement and the Board refused to act. It is now said that the BOL want to obtain the funds from the DES operating budget. Operating funds are for training and staff, not capital projects. I'm sure after hurricane Sandy the DES operating budget is stretched to its max. With Bond interest rates at its lowest, it would be appropriate to bond the replacement and its my belief the only way to fund it. I would like to ask my colleagues to contact the Board of Legislators TODAY by email and urge them to BOND this badly need project. This is what I wrote and emailed to them.

This drill is in its 8th year---FDNY has set the standard as to what IT wants for ANY mutual aid form ANY department. FDNY has desiginiated Westchester departments to cover the BRONX nothing more. Yonkers Raceway is the stageing area. OFPC with the help of WCDES Field Com checks the TRAINING RECORDS participents to make sure they meet the standard that FDNY has set. then they are given assigements and are escorted into the city.
Todays drill went off smoothly with the help of OEM and OFPC.
Citi Field is another staging area that uses Long Island companies that will cover Queens.
Is is my understanding that a third staging area is being developed on Staten Island for Coverage from NJ units. ALL participents must meet the FDNY standard.

This drill is in its 8th year---FDNY has set the standard as to what IT wants for ANY mutual aid form ANY department. FDNY has desiginiated Westchester departments to cover the BRONX nothing more. Yonkers Raceway is the stageing area. OFPC with the help of WCDES Field Com checks the TRAINING RECORDS participents to make sure they meet the standard that FDNY has set. then they are given assigements and are escorted into the city.
Todays drill went off smoothly with the help of OEM and OFPC.
Citi Field is another staging area that uses Long Island companies that will cover Queens.
Is is my understanding that a third staging area is being developed on Staten Island for Coverage from NJ units. ALL participents must meet the FDNY standard.

huzzie 59- to answer your question---sort of--that was the problem on 911 there was no control of what departments went where. If you had a "hook" or a friend your department went. some departments just went.Some had no communication with FDNY. All intentions were good and honerable, We were all taken in by the vastness of the situation and the horrific lose of life that day but in reality it only added to the confusion . This was a praparedness drill where interoperations with communications was established, companies were divided up and worked with FDNY eng and ladders and chiefs.
I am sure we all pray that there is never another situaton like 911 again but FDNY is not going to be caught off guard--they have a plan.
We have been told by FDNY/NYC Police that in the event that this plan goes into effect NO one No fire apparatus will enter the city without first going through the staging areas and they must have an assigement.ALL others will be turned away.

Nassau County has a very detailed plan with units going into Queens and Brooklyn. In Nassau County each one of the 9 Battalions has a Dept designated as an EOC (emergency operations center). The EOC opens up and the units/departments from that battalion participating in the drill respond to the EOC. No more then 1 Engine and 1 Ladder form any one department.
The EOC records the crew memebers info making sure certain criteria is met, as well as having some accountability on who is going where, and hopefully preventing self dispatch of units into the FDNY that had happened on 9-11. Also at this point in time if a certain department that was scheduled to go does not meet the requirements, another department in that battalion can be notified to fill that assignment.
The info is then faxed over to the County communications center. From the EOC the units then move up to one of the "staging areas" at a Nassau Dept on the Queens/Nasau border. At this location each Dept will meet with a Nassau County Fire Marshal who acts as a "escort" so to speak for those units and will respond to the assigned firehouse with them. From my understanding the Nassau units do have to meet certain criteria. (such as X amount of interior firefighters, NO FDNY members, NO Chiefs vehicles, they ride with the rigs)
They have a "drill" 2 or 3 times a year. On a Sunday morning, departing county around 9am...Nassau will send a large assignment of units to various locations that these companies would be relocated to in the event they are called. Units rotate each time. Nassau County Fire fieldcom goes into the Queens co at times, as well as fire marshal haz mat units and members.
They spend the morning with the companies and the area they would go to in the event this all went down. Companies in the past have taken in some alarms with the companies, even worked at a worker in one case I heard about. (just the man power put to work a bit, no rigs were in use) Drilled and flowed some water, had lunch with the house, and the Nassau units are back in county around 1 or 2pm. All in all the experiences have been good.
The jury is still out on whether this elaborate plan will work out in a true emergency. In the end the plan will only be as good as the current leadership of the Nassau Fire service at that time. Do the right thing and follow the plan or play cowboy and rush in with no accountability whatsover.

This drill is in its 8th year---FDNY has set the standard as to what IT wants for ANY mutual aid form ANY department. FDNY has desiginiated Westchester departments to cover the BRONX nothing more. Yonkers Raceway is the stageing area. OFPC with the help of WCDES Field Com checks the TRAINING RECORDS participents to make sure they meet the standard that FDNY has set. then they are given assigements and are escorted into the city.
Todays drill went off smoothly with the help of OEM and OFPC.
Citi Field is another staging area that uses Long Island companies that will cover Queens.
Is is my understanding that a third staging area is being developed on Staten Island for Coverage from NJ units. ALL participents must meet the FDNY standard.

This drill is in its 8th year---FDNY has set the standard as to what IT wants for ANY mutual aid form ANY department. FDNY has desiginiated Westchester departments to cover the BRONX nothing more. Yonkers Raceway is the stageing area. OFPC with the help of WCDES Field Com checks the TRAINING RECORDS participents to make sure they meet the standard that FDNY has set. then they are given assigements and are escorted into the city.
Todays drill went off smoothly with the help of OEM and OFPC.
Citi Field is another staging area that uses Long Island companies that will cover Queens.
Is is my understanding that a third staging area is being developed on Staten Island for Coverage from NJ units. ALL participents must meet the FDNY standard.

This drill is in its 8th year---FDNY has set the standard as to what IT wants for ANY mutual aid form ANY department. FDNY has desiginiated Westchester departments to cover the BRONX nothing more. Yonkers Raceway is the stageing area. OFPC with the help of WCDES Field Com checks the TRAINING RECORDS participents to make sure they meet the standard that FDNY has set. then they are given assigements and are escorted into the city.
Todays drill went off smoothly with the help of OEM and OFPC.
Citi Field is another staging area that uses Long Island companies that will cover Queens.
Is is my understanding that a third staging area is being developed on Staten Island for Coverage from NJ units. ALL participents must meet the FDNY standard.

This drill is in its 8th year---FDNY has set the standard as to what IT wants for ANY mutual aid form ANY department. FDNY has desiginiated Westchester departments to cover the BRONX nothing more. Yonkers Raceway is the stageing area. OFPC with the help of WCDES Field Com checks the TRAINING RECORDS participents to make sure they meet the standard that FDNY has set. then they are given assigements and are escorted into the city.
Todays drill went off smoothly with the help of OEM and OFPC.
Citi Field is another staging area that uses Long Island companies that will cover Queens.
Is is my understanding that a third staging area is being developed on Staten Island for Coverage from NJ units. ALL participents must meet the FDNY standard.

This drill is in its 8th year---FDNY has set the standard as to what IT wants for ANY mutual aid form ANY department. FDNY has desiginiated Westchester departments to cover the BRONX nothing more. Yonkers Raceway is the stageing area. OFPC with the help of WCDES Field Com checks the TRAINING RECORDS participents to make sure they meet the standard that FDNY has set. then they are given assigements and are escorted into the city.
Todays drill went off smoothly with the help of OEM and OFPC.
Citi Field is another staging area that uses Long Island companies that will cover Queens.
Is is my understanding that a third staging area is being developed on Staten Island for Coverage from NJ units. ALL participents must meet the FDNY standard.

firehousemen are personel that are paid by the Department or Fire district to work in the stations as what ever?? they can be grass cutters/snow removal men-- work on apparatus and they respond to fires while on duty. This procudure goes around Civil service.

Also regardless of the fact that the buildings are owned by the municipality, if you are selling alcohol, regardless of how much your selling it for, you need a liquor license in NYS. The bottom line is alcohol and fighting fires don’t mix, especially driving a rig after consuming any amount.

it seems pretty simple to me heres how ihandled it when asked in an Officers class--"if you cant do it in the library or in police headquarters what make you think you can do it in the fire house?"
in most cases the Department/company do not own the buildings--we are coustodians of the buildings--they belong to the public paid for by the public with taxes.
just my thoughts

it seems pretty simple to me heres how ihandled it when asked in an Officers class--"if you cant do it in the library or in police headquarters what make you think you can do it in the fire house?"
in most cases the Department/company do not own the buildings--we are coustodians of the buildings--they belong to the public paid for by the public with taxes.
just my thoughts

it seems pretty simple to me heres how ihandled it when asked in an Officers class--"if you cant do it in the library or in police headquarters what make you think you can do it in the fire house?"
in most cases the Department/company do not own the buildings--we are coustodians of the buildings--they belong to the public paid for by the public with taxes.
just my thoughts

it seems pretty simple to me heres how ihandled it when asked in an Officers class--"if you cant do it in the library or in police headquarters what make you think you can do it in the fire house?"
in most cases the Department/company do not own the buildings--we are coustodians of the buildings--they belong to the public paid for by the public with taxes.
just my thoughts