Atv300

Why can't a department come up with the standard we really have to wait until ny says its ok. I believe the officers coming up should be the one's making a change just like our four fathers. We the next generation are the one's who need to push for the change starting in your own department if the local Changes cannot stick how will the global ones stick look at OSHA still to this day departments do not comply with the minimum. You get a majority believeing in the same ideas eventually the rest will fallow just at this stage of the game this is a minority thought.

It is a tragic situation agreed there is a slight chance that what the public dose seals the fate of the fires we are trained to combat. I believe instead of faulting the public for not knowing we as firefighters need to educate and get it out there to leave things to the trained people. Personally besides the public lots of times I believe law enforcement needs the education also so the instinct to help dose not hinder the job that needs to be done. But no matter what I do not believe faulting them is not the answer educating them is what needs to be done.

I agree with the problem of over reliance on things such as thermal imaging but as someone said would be a nice tool for the officer to have such as the tic is. For the average fire fighter they would be able to have a more basic HUD and the more advanced HUD with the switch if whatever to change views that would be the best bet. Having that visual exit path in an emergency would be invaluable. I mean we can train how to operate without sight so I think we as firefighters can learn to use this tech if ever really able to put this in to play. Think of three fast team going through the door able to flick of a finger to pull up others location. Or the officer leading their crew into a building seeing the change in temp before he/ she can feel it through our ever advancing gear s

I am a fan of the dragon fire gloves.

Thank you I just picked the camera up when I got there settled for a smaller more compact camera for now eventually I would like to purchase a Digital SLR like a canon rebel or along those lines. But I was impressed with this camera for the quality and functions its a Sony cyber shot 16.2 MP full hd movies 3D, and the panorama which is a great feature with some of the landscape shots.

Here is a few other cool shots I was able to get the one house was designed to look like a old school train. One pic of just the concrete foundation there was a 2 story single family house on it until a winter storm in 1978 swept it into the sea. A lot of the houses along the coast had a storm shutter system almost like roll up doors over the windows.

Last weekend after I got married we got to leave to go to York beach Maine for a nice honeymoon. I was able to sneak in a few shots of fire houses and some apparatus. York beach fire house is right behind the hotel I stayed in so I was able to snag the most shots since I was there on other business I didn't get a chance to talk to anyone and get some real info but I figured I'd share a few shots.

I am back

Happy belated b-day dan sry I was doing the whole marriage then honeymoon deal so I didn't get a chance to say it.

Its not out of the question if we buy most likely it will be the setup I showed with the links. So yea we will now have some s/b if we buy but remember its a big chunk of change for the switch so its gonna take time if that route is taken.

Tonight we had a local reps come out with a truck full of goodies to play with as far a nozzle's and a few hoses. After tonight personally I am kind of sold on a S/B able to have a combo head screwed on. After all that said here are some of the numbers and the nozzle's/ hoses used.

So we broke out the 1 1/2" in line GPM/PSI flow meter and started hooking up some diff nozzle's and hoses looking for the best setup.

1) The current setup on one of our cross lays just on our reserve engine but pretty much the same on ever one except for use. 200' 1 3/4" pon lite with a TFT mid matic 100 psi. combo 130 psi. pump pressure first run flowed 130 gpms *this is why i say automatic nozzles are bad anymore after a little spray of some lube and whatever the rep did back up to 160 to 175 gpm range* but here is the deal is it always gonna work all the time.

2) Grabbed a VIT nozzle of the reps truck this is where i started getting impressed same hose same pump pressure but now 15/16ths smooth bore 160 to 170 gpms again but considerable less psi at the tip and the nice stream thats expected out of a S/B but the kicker was there was under a cover that with a turn exposed 1 1/2" threads where either another length of hose can be added if needed or screw on a combo head very nice idea.

3) Switched the vit but 1" S/B opining over to a 200' run of fire quip hose 1.88" interior diameter opened it up 125 pump pressure now it gets better 205 to 210 gpms at 55psi tip and the numbers with this hose stayed pretty impressive all the way down to 100psi pump pressure and lower but the best part was hooking up the TFT fixed 50psi combo head only lost 5 gpms still easy to handle like the S/B by itself but versatility for a car fire exposer protection whatever if needed. So in the end I would say this combo of hose, nozzle, and combo head works great and in the future will be replacing the current setups.

The nice thing found with the vit/metro 2 setup is we can gain advantages even with the current hose if need be untill we can upgrade still got 180Gpm 1" S/B and 175Gpm 50Psi fixed combo nozzel. All the guys seemed to love the lower Psi at the nozzle.

Hope this helps like I have said before the only way to find what is truly better is to go use it get out the flow meeter and see what it dose weather its Akron, tft, or whoever making the nozzle. there were more test and numbers but you get the drift.

Here are some links if any one is curious on the hose/ nozzle combo that we liked.

TFT VIT

TFT Metro II

Firequip classic victory

I am still hearing problems that are human error like was said before you can put a s/b against a combo and they perform pretty dam close. Either nozzle can get you introuble if used wrong pumped wrong. The only way to know is get the salesman to come out with both and a flow meeter get the hose rep to show up too and mix match hose and nozzle combos look at the numbers. Get your ff's on the ground moving around with it see what they think the put it all together when you get 180gpm + out of the right combination of items. Oh and invite all the pump operaters to show you don't need 400 psi to pump anymore. And get rid of automatics they are kilers.

I will use a bucket if it puts out the fire but I am a fan of somthing like a fixed 75psi combo but break apart so you have the option of smooth bore. We can break out the science trust me we did it in school they can be so close its preferences. No matter what stay away from automatics think about what can and has gone wrong. Train train and train again on whatever you use.

Thank you to mark for the pics and to the moderators for ending the issue.

I know that, BUT..and a HUGE BUT..is what about the daytime when we are covered by a comemrcial agency? We need one on 14 and one on 45, period.

BUt that aint what this thread is about..LOL

oh I know that dan I deffinatly agree just throwing it out there.

As far as the stokes Most likely the reason for the not mounted to any of the rigs is because there is one on both ambulances so there is one on each end of the district.

I will try to get a better pic of it...hard to see with no camera screen..LOL

Tell me that dude on the right ain't SOME BIG!?

I didn't think Wescot was that old.

It has a 1250 or 1500GPM I have to many trucks with equipment/ pumps running through my head right now. Also 700 gals of water due to compartments and such. Also did you happen across the BAM BAM tool lol the paratec Precusive Rescue Tool ill drop a link in at the bottom for anyone intrested. The tool has been used for many intresting things such as trailer fires and I personal can opend a roof on a ford explorer during an extrication class.

PRT

This board is not the place to convert jakes into foam lovers, I can rehash many fires that I was personally involved in its mitigation, and the effective use of CAFS, and many others where I was not present and it made all the difference. I can even recall a few fires where it did not work as intended. Bottom line is real-life time on the nozzle of a CAFS line or at a fire where it is used is the way to really understand this tool.

I also think that CAFS as an excuse to reduce manpower and staffing for the purposes of the overall bottom line is a bastardization of the whole concept. Yes a line charged with foam is much lighter and takes a man or two less to maneuver around. But bottom line is it is the men and women who put these tools to use to mitigate any hazard, not a concept such as foam, or the fit-5. I dislike that.

The video posted where the fire seemingly increases in velocity at the initial burst, the foam appears to be extremely dry, more so then it should be, and yes, they hit really low. I don't know the % they used or the story around it, I literally fast forwarded to the 5 minute mark to watch what you posted.

Either way, I like how some have summed things up. This is a tool that my department and many others in our immediately mutual aid area use. Other departments nearby love Fit-5's. Some live big water and the ladders that push them. Every department has a culture and set of tactics that have worked effectively for them. I choose not to worry about what any other department does unless they are operating at my incident. We are going to keep using our foam because it has proven to us time and time again the property it can save and rapid deceleration it can bring to almost any fire.

I agree that its all about the manpower using the tool but everything is a concept until it is used and implemented by the end user. CAFS is still a concept to some departments where as its a tool for you guys because you have been using it for awhile now it has become second nature to the majority thats where it is proven and effective when it is used for so long.

Also excellent statement about it being pushed for the wrong reasons manpower numbers should not be a factor because we are losing them as it is lets not get complacent that we should do something just because we can. The tool should be pushed for its real merits surface tension, effectiveness of water.

Dan and Ryan have you been to any calls other then the one in Amenia where CAFS was used? I know Millerton has had several calls where they used CAFS, the one that comes to mind was the Smith fire just off Route 22 where they used the CAFS and it made a huge difference, I drove by the house the next day and could not even tell the place had a fire. I have personally been at two structure fire where I have been on the CAFS line and it made a significant difference on the knock down with alot less water and alot more flexibilty in operating the line and less fatigue on the line guys. As with anything, it isn't full proof, training and using it will only make it's use that much more effective.

Let's be honest here Ryan and Dan you guys will probably never use it (unless on a mutual aide call) nor purchase it and no matter how many times it is shown that it is can make a difference there are some departments because of tradition that won't even consider it and the one time (Amenia's fire which by the way had a void left open during renovations that allowed the fire to travel to the attic) where it isn't effective the nah sayers will rise up and say I told you so. We can argue back and forth on the merits of it to the cows come home, fire will go out without water and without any training or tactics.

Ryan how many times can we talk about the tools in the box, how many guys can't or don't even don their issued turnout gear (which is as basic tool as a flat screw driver) or an SCBA at a structure fire, let alone be pro-active enough to use and train with a new tool. Heck how many times have you been at a call where a ground ladder can't even be raised or placed properly, another basic tool. So let's be careful and not look through rose colored glasses when we are talking about the good ole tool box when even the basic tools aren't even taken out of the box routinely, you have seen and so haven't I, call after call.

Dan I said our zone not area, several departments North of Dover love it, train with it and use it so it is proven to them, maybe not you, Ryan or I but to those departments that use it, it has been proven to them and that's all that matters to them. As I said in the thread about our engine, I wasn't sold on it totally either and still have some limited doubts (because of my lack of using it) but after many discussions with our officers, putting my hands on a CAFS line and talking with the Battalion 4 Chiefs we added to our specifications and it was because we wanted to be proactive and add another feature that will aid us and our neighbors for many years to come.

Ryan the PPV training is a sore subject with me, remind me when I see you next time about a PPV on attack story.

Hey Fiftyone Pride where are you on this discussion, I know you chimed in earlier but please add some real world experience you have had using CAFS and why you now have two CAFS engines!!!!

Mark I am not basshing CAFS in fact i love the concept of it but simple fact is untill it becomes as easy as water for everyone to use I wont be compleatly sold. And from what I have seen it is becoming eiser every time a new engien is specd things get better but like was said in a post earlier where is the training at a state level how do you get this to the masses. Your 100% right about the tool box thats why I put cafs in there people unless they do it everytime, trainig and the real deal do not use everything to its fullest, partially due to the fact its hard to fully retrain on a new system in a short amount of time all of the members in a department heck ill go as far as the nighbors department too. As I said the times I have seen CAFS used or the after effect of using it whatever the problem may have been it didnt do the job everone praised it to do. Saying that, I am sure I can find easily as many great outcomes for CAFS as anything I know it works when its implemented properly you mention the PPV and how you had a bad experince the same concept as me with CAFS it is not good untill you and your department all of it fully understand and use it the right way everytime. Personally I wouldn't use PPV when attacking a fire due to the lack of training and knowledge that many smaller rural departments have with it. Remember the area around here many times departments end up with mutual aid manpower sometimes using other departments equipment with that it can't be guaranteed that everyone is going to know how to use/pump the CAFS or any tool for that mater. Although i must give praise to the northern Battalion departments in there proactive cross training you guys do an amazing job of working together and sharing ideas but even in a single zone can you guarantee that every pump operator and ff knows how to use it to its fullest I would venture to guess the numbers for the water side is alot closer. Water is universal a FF can go and grab a hand line any where from FDNY to San Fransisco and any where in between and the water coming out of it will do the same job on either end of the coast.

Please don't take my post as being against it I am for it just when it is proven meaning any ff/operator can pick it up and do the job not saying the fire service shouldn't be embracing it and using it. I am kind of playing devils advocate with this I agree it can and dose work in areas that use it like the northern end. I would love to see this used more around the area and also better more available training to everyone.

I am sorry I tend to agree with 129 on this but only in my opinion do to what was also mentioned earlier training and personal using it. CAFS and traditional foam systems do work but in reality I have yet to see a fire in the area that was impressive enough yet to be sold. Don't get me wrong the science and technology behind it makes me know its the way to go eventually but untill the human aspect gets fixed I think its not the greats tool im the box. Its like the fit five great inovation great theory but for the right conditions and the right ones only I was at a demo for the fit five when it was deployed nadda do to the wrong conditions from the start but for the lay ff / officer after that they could have given free samples and no one would have wasted the space in our are/ department setup. so even though the science is there where's the tried and true proof. Water even in the most inexperienced hands still puts fires out with in all honesty half the training of anything else I have seen. After all that I am still a big fan of cafs when the training and proper use is there but its hard for some departments to implement it to its fullest. No different then Positive Pressure ventilation used in attacking a fire there are departments that train and fight that way pretty much every fire guess what the have great effect on the knockdown also. PPV can also be very dangerous so no matter what it boils down to the company how they train, teach, fight, and think about the fires they go to.

There are alot of different factors to look at as bad as it sounds if your in a smaller department costs being one of them. When I was introduced to the scott intagrated system I said to my self this would work perfect for a smaller department since you only outfit the packs so lets say 25 packs with fifty interior guys cuts the amount in half. Also mantaining the equipment you only have to inspect those systems which are readily available because they are apart of the scba instead of trying to get everyones personal systems together. Last pro of the day even though I am sure I could talk more on this the ff dosent have to think about keeping that other system with their gear if you washed your gear and didn't get it back on for some reason your sol but with the pack system its on as soon as you put the pack on done deal but it comes down to what works the best for your department best I can say have reps from each system bring somthing to try out that's the only way to find out whats the best.

E-Ones of JH Ketcham.

36-13 Attack engine out of sta. 1 with extrication tools on board as well

36-14 Rescue Pumper out of sta. 2

36-45 Quint out of sta. 1

13,11,and 61 11 mainly used as a source engine also support for brush fires and 61 2000 F350 with an EONE body taken off our previous brush/utility.

The new 12 Attack engine out of sta. 2

The old 12 when it was in service and still owned by us.

I wish your statement was true. There are many differences besides payroll and pensions and they were like a cancer in my department for years creating animosity between the paid guys and volunteers. I know that they still exist today so you're either naive or in denial.

Disparate levels of training, widely varying levels of commitment, poor accountability of volunteers, varying levels of fitness, etc. are all differences between paid and volunteer.

You cannot compare FF 1 class to a career academy and claim they're equal.

And just to be accurate, there are pension costs in a lot of volunteer agencies. LOSAP programs cost money and are the volunteer equivalent of a pension.

We should demand equal training and promote more combination departments to insure that those who need it can get it. The people stuck in the anti-career or anti-volunteer camps are nothing but problems.

I Agree 100% that there should be equal training for vollies and paid. Losap is not in all volunteer departments and even if it was its no pension. The levels of accountability fitness ect. is a big difference in all departments vollie or paid not all paid are run the same as well as not all vollies are run the same. I'll give you the majority is in the paid favor.

Yes the VFD's budgets are much lower, that does not mean they cost less. I have found many cases in Westchester where the per capita costs are much higher for VFD's. Also property owners pay much more (often over $1,000 more) in insurance for the honor of having volunteers. Was it Poor Richard who said "you get what you pay for"?

Could it be because they pay more for the VFD, than FDNY?

Here is the thing about this statment that bothers me so correct me if I am wrong. The statements your are trying to get across is that vollies do not save money in my experience this is the majority of the time not true but with everything I am sure there are exceptions. To say a resident pays more for a vollie then FDNY how to you come to that figure? If its the tax cost look at the difference in population not including the tax base from business in NYC, even just the Burroughs separately if thats how they slice the pie vs. the area that the vollie department covers. Take Yonkers vs. ossining in 2010 Ossining had around 37674 residents and Yonkers had something like 190000 residents so yes per capita a vollie department can cost more if you compare apples to oranges. Take that same budget of a vollie department and spread it over 190000 people not including commercial tax base and see the numbers. In reality no 99% of volunteer departments could not come close to the service Yonkers gets from there department but they can afford it. Take my town for example 8500 residents give or take some day I am sure we will have to go combo possible paid due to sheer facts people do not have the dedication any more or the time to think about it when people have to work to stay afloat but try and staff a department at $100,000 plus a ff and see what a town like that would have to do. Lets just say it was 4 guys thats more then our whole budget. So yes there has to be alot of changes made across the board. Thats where if it ever becomes feasible a county wide department would have to be or some how a bunch of towns would have to pool the cost. I am just going for facts not to create any B.S. Because I agree with all my heart that alot can be changed with the fire service and some not all would benefit from paid staff.

Yes out where I am at least there are no fast teams close enough to consider so we fight and train that way. Just this past weekend since I am an officer now and I take it seriously I started trying things to be able to midigate the oh s**t moments like testing ideas out for being able to use one of our packs as a quick fix for no rit pack since all of our packs have the buddy breathing option they can be conected quick if a ff is trapped low on air his partner can hook in to suplement for the time untill another pack is brought in with tools to hook up. That's what I mean about adapting and over coming havin the ability to preform the duties that need be even without the team. I said it before I agree 1000% about a fast team but I also agree you should be able to do with out if need be cuz you can get trapped in the first 3sec. Or the last 20 mins so if the fast is on its way still need to use your guys to affect the rescue.