Fire Investigation Teams

[Guest]

SHOULD FIRE INVESTIGATION TEAMS BE CAREER PROFESSIONALS SUCH AS THE NEW YORK STATE POLICE OR A SEPRARATE GROUP BRANCHED OFF THE COUNTY EMERGENCY SERVICES BUREAU? OR ARE THEY DOING A GOOD ENOUGH JOB AS VOLUNTEERS. IF THEY DO IT AS A PROFESSION THAN MAYBE THE "MICE WITH MATCHES" THEME COULD BE BROUGHT TO A MINIMUM. FIRE INVESTIGATIONS ARE A TOUGH JOB BUT PEOPLES FUTURES ARE IN THE HANDS OF THE DECISIONS OF THE INVESTIGATION TEAMS. IF A FIRE IS DEEMED ARSON IN THEIR EYES, BUT IT WAS REALLY STARTED BY NATURAL CAUSES, THE PEOPLE THAT JUST LOST EVERYTHING, JUST LOST EVEN MORE IN THE BATTLE AGAINST THEIR INSURANCE COMPANY. I HOPE THIS BRINGS FOR SOME GOOD DISCUSIONS.

[TRUCK6018 50]

First off, please loose the cap's. Nothing personal but it makes for very difficult reading. Now onto the content of the post....

Are you saying the "volunteer" fire investigators are of sub-standard quality to the police? I would have to argue that point.

While I can't speak of Putnam County's investigators, Westchester County's Cause and Origin Team, work hand in hand with the police having jurisdiction and the district attorney's office. Not just anyone can be on the team. You have to complete the required training to be on and stay on the team.

Would say the NY State Police do a better job as you point out? I'm certainly not going to knock the police, but wouldn't it be better to have someone trained specifically for fire investigation?

I've been in command of many fire's, both incendiary in and accidental in nature. More than once, while the police handle their investigation, they have referred to the C & O Team for their expertise. It is up to all the agencies involved to work together.

While they may not be a be all, end all, they are what we have to work with. In fact, I've seen home owner's insurance investigators pick up on things that neither C & O or the police picked up on. So maybe the police aren't good enough either.

Per NY State General Municipal Law 204-c, it is up to the individual counties to determine a plan for arson investigations:

The governing body of each county except a county contained wholly within a city, and the governing body of any city in which a county is wholly contained shall develop a plan for arson investigation within such county or city.  Such plan shall be submitted to the office of fire prevention and control for approval.  No plan shall be approved unless it provides for the coordination of fire, law enforcement and prosecutorial services.

The days are long gone of having Joe Butler handling fire investigations. Back in his day he was the only paid fire investigator on Westchester County's payroll.

Edited May 9, 2006 by TRUCK6018

[johnvv 20]

Why can't both the Fire Investigators and the Police work together to conduct a comprehensive and complete fire investigation?

Both bring different strengths to an investigation. The fire service brings its experience of firefighting and fire behavior to the investigation. We understand the science better than anyone. The Police have great interviewing/interogating skills that they have honed due to their experiences.

Having worked in the Fire Investigation field for many years (Career and Non Career) the question is not paid or not- its about competance or incompetance. I've worked with many investigators and found some great ones,and some not so great. It had nothing to do with who recieves a paycheck.

[Guest]

WHAT I AM TRYING TO GET AT IS THAT THERE IS A LOT THAT RELIES ON THE INVESTIGATION TEAMS DECISION. AND I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO GET THE IMPRESSION THAT VOLUNTEERS AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE JOB, I JUST FEEL THAT FOR MANY SITUATIONS PROFESSIONAL INVESTIGATORS SHOULD MAKE FINAL SAY IN WHAT BECOMES THE CAUSE. THE NYSP HAVE A FIRE INVESTIGATION TEAM FOR INSTANCE.

[ex-commish 490]

First, a team or individual investigator is a resource for the chief. NYS law charges the fire chief with the duty to determine a cause. The investigators gather evidence and come to a conclusion. It is up to the chief to accept the findings.

[Guest]

I'm just curious, who are you and what background do you have? Are you aware of fire investigation teams and how they operate, their training, and standards? Or is this a uniformed bias? I agree with your comment that a lot is riding on the decision, but I can't see your point of how a "professional" would be better. I also think the volunteer or paid, as you put it, makes no difference, experience does.

And for you knowledge, the NYSP team investigates fires and their relation to criminal activity, not cause and origin. You should also know that insurance comapanies routinely send their own investigation team. And poor work by a fire investigatior is also quickly and easily brought down by the next levels in the process...remember, their findings have to be proven.

[dant42 0]

to soonbff fist of all i have never heard of the nysp haveing a fire investigation team, they have investigators trained in fire investigation,also they do not and will not respond to every fire incendiary or accidental or other cause , in putnam county the c&o team does and will respond to any and all fires, and also to set you straight on how we work with the S.P. the c&o team makes a determination of a incendiary fire we then turn the case over for the S.P. to take over ,as far has training the volunteer c&o team of putnam county has more training and more experince investigating fires then the S.P. or the P.C.S.O.

right now in putnam co. there are (16) investigators on the team (9) are level (2) investigators and (4) are nationally certified investigators that do a great job.

[firemoose827 324]

Hey. I have worked long and hard to get all the training I could as a fire investigator. I went to the Academy and got my Level I Investigator as well as 3 other support classes. I am also a Nationally Certified Fire and Explosion Investigator through NAFI. I am volunteer. I have spent many hours helping my chief and our County Team doing C&O, and I have helped the guys from State Fire as well as Insurance Agencies. In my opinion we do the same job, but I think as a volunteer I put more heart into it. I was on C&O's where the pros wanted to quit and label it "Under Investigation" or "Undetermined" ( I hate that label. ) and those of us who were volies wanted to keep going, but we did not have a say. It is all up to the attitude, patience, and skill level of the investigator. There is a lot of patience involved with investigations, and I think that most investigators dont have patience.

I am on a waiting list for our county team and there are many qualifications to be on it. Unfortunately it is atleast a 3 year list.

Oh well....Im young still.

I agree with asstchief, 204-C also states it is up to the chief to determine the cause of ALL fires their dept responds to, or cause to be determined by outside resources, but ultimately the chief puts the final say on the BIFR's.

Jonesy

[FDNYDCHI 38]

here is my two cents. Really it doesn't matter if you are a paid or volunteer you all do the same job from start to finish. I also got my B.S. In Arson Investigation with criminal justice from the university of new haven. Its a hard field to find work. At this piont in time i am doing totally somthing different from my degree. Eventually I would like to work in the investigation field but i need to bring up my "experence".

Do your job and do it well. In the end it comes down to finding how the fire started. Not if you are going to colect a pay check this week.

be safe out there

chris

[x129K 1,393]

Why can't both the Fire Investigators and the Police work together to conduct a comprehensive and complete fire investigation?

That is what the City of Poughkeepsie does on occasion. Several detectives and patrolman are "arson" investigators, and work with the PFD Inspectors.

Best of both worlds

[LCFD994 8]

to soonbff fist of all i have never heard of the nysp haveing a fire investigation team, they have investigators trained in fire investigation,also they do not and will not respond to every fire incendiary or accidental or other cause , in putnam county the c&o team does and will respond to any and all fires, and also to set you straight on how we work with the S.P. the c&o team makes a determination of a incendiary fire we then turn the case over for the S.P. to take over ,as far has training the volunteer c&o team of putnam county has more training and more experince investigating fires then the S.P. or the P.C.S.O.

right now in putnam co. there are (16) investigators on the team (9) are level (2) investigators and (4) are nationally certified investigators that do a great job.

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your my hero dant42