Hackley Fire In Retrospect

[efdny2003 16]

I'm only a propationary firefighter, but I was at the Hackley School Fire. In my opinion, I dont know why certain departments were skipped over others, personally i asked myself why Hartsdale or Greenville weren't called in. As far as I remember, the only EMS on scene was Tarrytown VAC and Greenburgh ALS. There may have been more, but those were the only EMS agencies I saw. But as for why certain departments 30-45 minutes away were called instead of one 5-10 minutes away, no one other then those operating Incident Command know the answer. They may have had their reasons for calling in certain departments and not others. Being on scene I know there was a water supply problem...that's why Elmsford was originally called in, to relay hose for water supply. The Hackley water supply was drained within a matter of hours, and if I remember correctly they were actually starting to drain Tarrytown's water supply. Tankers were called in from places like Continental Village, and a shuttle operation was put in palce in the rear of the building draining from the Tarrytown Lakes to a water pool for the Sleepy Hollow ladder and the engines operating in back. As for the police being on scene, and I'm not trying to start any trouble, but other then Greenburgh ALS, I did not see to many police cars in the area of Hackley, if they were there, then I was in a position that I could not see them, I can't explain why any police departments on scene are not getting some sort of donation. Now I'm only a probationary firefighter, and Hackley was my first fire, but the main reason I joined EMT Bravo was to read posts by members of either paid or volunteer departments with years of experience so I can learn how they operate and try to get some ideas of what I can do in certain situations. To have almost every post turn into a fight between paid and volly to me is a little disheartening, when to me this is a website to continue learning how area departments operate, and to get ideas on how I can be a better firefighter. This is just my opinion, take it for what its worth considering I'm only a probationary firefighter.

[Ex-2114 7]

My turn...

I wasn't at the fire...

I was listening to it... from what I heard, the IC told 60 Control what he needed. The MA run card only goes so far... When I was working with the run cards (recommendations to the Chief while I was Captain), you put on up to 5 engines and 5 ladders - anything over and above that was at the discretion of 60 Control.

A lot of departments have 'freindships' with other neighboring departments... These are the departments usually placed on the list first. Best practice - probably not but we'll not go there at the moment.

The way I see it is this: once Tarrytown's Mutual Aid run card was exhausted (early in the game) and the area's departments were all tapped into, 60 Control started picking from departments that were not in the immediate area so as not to deplete entire areas of their department's coverage. Some people say that they should have gone up the line one by one and just backfilled from other neighboring departments, but I am not a proponant of that -- why have 40 different departments on MA coverage just to standby in someone else's quarters who was standing by in yet another department's quarters. Taking a ladder from Yorktown wasn't that bad of an idea - they were far enough up the line to not have the backfilling issue and close enough to make them effective (notice that the ladderpipe was in operation).

As for the Paid vs. Vol issue... it will always be an issue in any area, in any county, in any state, etc.... In my days of being a Captain, the discussions were held frequently about which departments to call and which not to call. In a fire the size of Hackley, they needed manpower a lot more than equipment. Most times when calling a paid department, you get the driver/MPO, an officer, and usually 2 FF's. When calling a Vol department, you more often than not get the driver/MPO, an officer (or two or three), a fully packed apparatus of FF's, and more often than not a chief's car filled with FF's - especially for an incident the size of Hackley.

Most departments have a rule that the senior (trained/experienced) FFs get on the rig for MA calls - especially those that you KNOW you're being put to work at. I know that I had to swap out people to ensure that I had the right level of experience and skill when TL21 was sent MA to work.

This all being said.... there are countless threads on EMTBravo that have a lot of 'discussion' regarding the Paid vs. Volunteer and who's better and who's bigger, and yadda yadda yadda. In the end, we are ALL in the business to save property, save lives, and serve the community. Whether paid or volunteer, the common goal is to work the job PROFESSIONALLY. Professionalism comes from experience and training. Professionalism is not the bashing of one group as compared to another. Saying "I don't want to see vollys responding to my city..." is NOT professional. Think back 6 years - on September 11th, how many 'Volly' departments were in THE city protecting life and property while the thousands of lives were trying to be saved?? Now THAT is professionalism. Are there really enough paid departments to cover the entire City of New York's fIrehouses while still covering their home area??? Right - not without the volunteers!!

WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Edited August 17, 2007 by Ex-2114

[ex-commish 490]

When I was a chief and I needed mutual aid beyond my initial plan I just called 60-control and asked for help. I was asked if I had any preference and my response was no......just send help. Those of you who have commanded incidents especially big ones know you dont have time to worry about where the help is coming from. You are concentrating on the incident. Thats what 60- control is for as well as the batt coordinators. I think we have more important things to worry about today than who won't call who. If your dept does not want mine for whatever reason than so be it. Believe me I won't lose sleep over it. Never did.

I do have to agree with Seth's point on training. There should be a set standard on training. I think it would actually make things easier as you would have a guideline to follow and perhaps some direction.

[DaveTFD 0]

i have read most of the posts on this forum. i say "most" because some were just too ignorant to stomach. I see a few things going on here: 1. people are mad they did not get thanked for being at the fire. 2- people are questioning the donations to the fire departments. 3- people insulting volunteer firemen. 4- paid departments think that they were singled out and purposely not called for mutal aid and 5- this website has turned into nothing but a silly rant site where mostly people in "explorer" programs have a place to put their 2 cents in.

ill try to address the issues one by one for you:

1- if you were at the fire you deserve a thank you. I have posted before that the paper gave Tarrytown a lot of praise and took some off of the mutal aid companies. I thanked every responding department for their efforts. not good enough?

2- where are the volunteers to tell everybody that a good amount of our money comes from donations. every year my department has a fund drive asking for donations. if hackley wants to give donations...good! i have spent more time at that school on false alarms than anywhere else. why shouldent they donate? we lost equipment and ppe just like all the other departments, i think they are just trying to help out with our expense.

3- I have absolutly no problem with career firemen. I think they all do a great job and i think my opinion is shared by most volunteers. what i absolutely can not stand is that paid guys do not share the same feelings. not all firemen can be paid ones! we are trained, we are professional, and we do it all on our own free time. Pat Derivan was the chief who ran the entire operation at hackley school that day. does anybody actually think when he was asking for mutal aid that he was purposely going over career guys? wouldnt it be a better idea to assume he had just a few other things on his mind that day? he asked 60 control for help and they gave it to him.

as far as volunteer departments not going the man power they need: i will leave out my own department in this case because i do not want to be bias. the village next to Tarrytown is Irvington. If anybody is in Irvington when the whistle blows, find a bench and have a seat for a few minutes. you will see between 20-30 guys pull up in their cars and get on those trucks and still have a good response time to any alarm. do that and then come on here and tell me that volunteers do not have the man power they need.

4- you guys want to promote getting along with volunteers? stop bad mouthing them.

I have said it before and I will say it again, everybody who operated at hackley school did it professionally and worked very well together. what bothers me the most are guys who sit on the sidelines with no gear on and watch guys work while they critisize them. get your gear on and do some work. if guys are not doing something right, help them do it the correct way and dont bad mouth them.

ps.

moderators should have put a stop to all of these posts before it became an issue like it is.

[Guest partyrock]

ladder12, you need to get more familiar with the volunteer world. Maybe someone who actually volunteers can elaborate with better info, but to my knowledge even the depts that respond to scenes load up at the station before going mutual aid. Your guys never get detailed across the floor? Your guys are cross trained to perform all the tasks on the fire ground? I'm sure these depts all have accountability systems in place. The few volleys I know all do.

[tunaFish 0]

Please don't take this the wrong way on this forum but I don't want to see vollies responding to my city no matter how big the fire. Maybe they feel the same way. We have assigned members to specific rigs ( IE truckies and engine guys) not whoever jumps on the rig. We have a set IC system with accountability. Guys showing up in their cars does not help unless they come to the board and check in for assignments. This is not a vollie vs career debate it is how I feel. The 2 organizations have different outlooks on one another and will never work together.Let me go on record as saying I don't have a problem with vollies but when I go to a job I want a brother who gets paid to be watching my back not someone who just shows up when they want.

Not being in the occupations of many of you on here but, as a human being , I really need to make a comment about this post.

May I respond to your quote " Please don't take this the wrong way....." I have some difficulty taking this comment any other way, but the wrong way.

Your quote " But when I go to a job, I want a brother who gets paid to be watching my back..."

In a nutshell, people that get paid are the only true lifesavers?

OMG!

'Cmon

Oh, and don't take this the wrong way. :angry:

Edited August 18, 2007 by tunaFish

[Remember585 815]

Amazing.

Flashback a couple of years ago to the fire in the Nodine Hill section of Yonkers. Did any of Westchester's volunteer FD's get called? Mmmm.....nope. Does Yonkers border volunteer Fire Departments.....yup.

Did anyone bring up the fact that Yonkers never called for help from their neighboring volunteer Fire Departments? YES, and it IMMEDIATELY got locked!

Nobody can argue that Yonkers and Tarrytown are like night and day. One is fully paid with fulll crews on their apparatus doing thousands of calls per year. And unless I am missing something - Tarrytown isn't doing that kind of a work load, and to date it is all done by volunteer personnel.

How come it is acceptable for an incident like the Hackley School Fire to be used as a catalyst for the never-ending whining of the Paid vs. Volunteer issue?

Everyone wants to be treated like professionals - and I'm sorry, but those of you crying because you didn't get called.....STOP!

I belong to a Department that doesn't get called to places we border for personality issues and a crap-load of the "We're better then them" mentality. It's all horseshit! No single Department in my book is sooooooo great that they will never need to use Mutual Aid. Explain to those that lose their homes, their dreams and sometimes their lives why you didn't call your neighboring FD who is five or less minutes away. Tell them because "They don't call you" or "We don't like them" or "They're not our drinking buddies" or "They're only volunteer" or "They're paid and they won't help us."

GIVE ME A F***ING BREAK!!!!!!

Nobody has an over-abundance of manpower in Westchester unless there is a secret stash somewhere. If I am an IC, I am calling those CLOSEST TO ME, PAID, VOLUNTEER, WHATEVER for manpower. If I need specialized resources, such as Haz-Mat or Tech-Rescue, I don't care if Yonkers R1 pulls up and asks me to get the hell out of their way! They know what they are doing - my ego isn't too big to know when I am beyond my abilities!!!!

I am so tired of hearing this debate - we all know that Paid FFs undergo FAR MORE TRAINING initially and annually then 99.9% of us volunteers. We are our own worst enemies. How many Westchester Departments haven't even been to the Fire Training Center in 2007? How many of you can say you have trained at least 100 hours like the career guys have to? I know our Department strives like hell to get there, but only a fraction of the membership actually gives a spit and accomplishes it.

As for the Battalion thing - NO COMMENT. Our FD is in a Battalion where neighboring Departments don't call each other because of reasons beyond me.

Hey Tarrytown and all involved at Hackley - good job, wish I could of pitched in.

I'm done with this.

[Remember585 815]

ladder12, you need to get more familiar with the volunteer world. Maybe someone who actually volunteers can elaborate with better info, but to my knowledge even the depts that respond to scenes load up at the station before going mutual aid. Your guys never get detailed across the floor? Your guys are cross trained to perform all the tasks on the fire ground? I'm sure these depts all have accountability systems in place. The few volleys I know all do.

He's not that far off though. Some fires in Westchester that I have been to I haven't seen ANY ACCOUNTABILITY or it isn't done correctly. If Department A calls Department B for Mutual Aid Engine, then a crew should go with that rig and THAT'S IT! A fire scene is hard to control if you can not account for everyone. We have a two-tag system, one at the rig and one to the Accountability Officer that works OK, but it seems like only 2/3 of those on scene actually tag-in.

And, in my own opinion which has been known to be wrong - if you ask a firefighter to help you put out a fire, and that firefighter has half a brain, they usually are of assistance. It's rare to see someone step up that can't do the task asked of them.

[ex-commish 490]

ladder12, you need to get more familiar with the volunteer world. Maybe someone who actually volunteers can elaborate with better info, but to my knowledge even the depts that respond to scenes load up at the station before going mutual aid. Your guys never get detailed across the floor? Your guys are cross trained to perform all the tasks on the fire ground? I'm sure these depts all have accountability systems in place. The few volleys I know all do.

Party, it depends on the department. My first dept had 4 companies where I was in an engine company and for 10 years all I did was engine work...I hardly ever climbed ladders nor did I do forcoble entry and other truck work. Now I am in a dept that is a single company dept and where all members are trained in all aspects of firefighting. We also have a 2 tag accountability system in place.

[firecapt32 282]

Heres the first question I would need an anawer to before making any more comments, Why so many departments involved?? I understand the need for a three tanker system-I under stand the need for the foam unit. Do we need to fill all the holes? was very company in Tarrytown covered? I just dont understand that? The movement of apparatus need to be looked at? and why Rockland county?

I do understand the need for "mutual"aid having been involved with it many times over my career I have seen abuses, thats for sure--I was detailed to mutual aid to a career department and on arrival whhile setting up out tower ladder I saw at least 4 firefighters sitting on the curb watchinig. Their chief said they didnt need to put them to work because they had mutual aid covering.

[huzzie59 75]

Amazing.

Flashback a couple of years ago to the fire in the Nodine Hill section of Yonkers. Did any of Westchester's volunteer FD's get called? Mmmm.....nope. Does Yonkers border volunteer Fire Departments.....yup.

Did anyone bring up the fact that Yonkers never called for help from their neighboring volunteer Fire Departments? YES, and it IMMEDIATELY got locked!

Nobody can argue that Yonkers and Tarrytown are like night and day. One is fully paid with fulll crews on their apparatus doing thousands of calls per year. And unless I am missing something - Tarrytown isn't doing that kind of a work load, and to date it is all done by volunteer personnel.

How come it is acceptable for an incident like the Hackley School Fire to be used as a catalyst for the never-ending whining of the Paid vs. Volunteer issue?

Everyone wants to be treated like professionals - and I'm sorry, but those of you crying because you didn't get called.....STOP!

I belong to a Department that doesn't get called to places we border for personality issues and a crap-load of the "We're better then them" mentality. It's all horseshit! No single Department in my book is sooooooo great that they will never need to use Mutual Aid. Explain to those that lose their homes, their dreams and sometimes their lives why you didn't call your neighboring FD who is five or less minutes away. Tell them because "They don't call you" or "We don't like them" or "They're not our drinking buddies" or "They're only volunteer" or "They're paid and they won't help us."

GIVE ME A F***ING BREAK!!!!!!

Nobody has an over-abundance of manpower in Westchester unless there is a secret stash somewhere. If I am an IC, I am calling those CLOSEST TO ME, PAID, VOLUNTEER, WHATEVER for manpower. If I need specialized resources, such as Haz-Mat or Tech-Rescue, I don't care if Yonkers R1 pulls up and asks me to get the hell out of their way! They know what they are doing - my ego isn't too big to know when I am beyond my abilities!!!!

I am so tired of hearing this debate - we all know that Paid FFs undergo FAR MORE TRAINING initially and annually then 99.9% of us volunteers. We are our own worst enemies. How many Westchester Departments haven't even been to the Fire Training Center in 2007? How many of you can say you have trained at least 100 hours like the career guys have to? I know our Department strives like hell to get there, but only a fraction of the membership actually gives a spit and accomplishes it.

As for the Battalion thing - NO COMMENT. Our FD is in a Battalion where neighboring Departments don't call each other because of reasons beyond me.

Hey Tarrytown and all involved at Hackley - good job, wish I could of pitched in.

I'm done with this.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jayhalsey 6]

Please don't take this the wrong way on this forum but I don't want to see vollies responding to my city no matter how big the fire. Maybe they feel the same way. We have assigned members to specific rigs ( IE truckies and engine guys) not whoever jumps on the rig. We have a set IC system with accountability. Guys showing up in their cars does not help unless they come to the board and check in for assignments. This is not a vollie vs career debate it is how I feel. The 2 organizations have different outlooks on one another and will never work together.Let me go on record as saying I don't have a problem with vollies but when I go to a job I want a brother who gets paid to be watching my back not someone who just shows up when they want.

EDIT: Let me preface this by saying that I am in a combination department, on the volunteer side. I would be lying if I said everyone gets along famously. But the vast majority do. As with any large froup there are going to be a couple

Wow. You just hit the nail on the head, as far as what causes the rift between vollies and career guys. There is only one way to take what you said, and that is the way you intended it. Seems like it is ego's like yours that caused the problems in westchester's mutual aid system that people are talking about in this thread. If guys like you won't work with vollies, why would you get called to a fire in a volley district? Sure you might be a bit closer than some other units, but does that outweigh the headbutting that will be going on trying to get you to follow orders by a volley IC?

You say that you have dedicated "truckies and engine guys." Does that mean that you only know how to do one job? IE an engine guy doesnt know how to vent a roof? Seems pretty silly in this day and age to limit yourself so. The volunteer departments that I have seen train on everything, not just one discipline.

As far as accountability, why does it matter if someone shows up in their own car or on a rig as long as they check in at the command post? you can just as easily exit the rig and go to work, bypassing the command post as you can after exiting a car. I would think that volunteers would assemble at teh station and ride a rig to a mutual aid call.

I dont really understand your last sentence. You say that you dont have a problem with vollies, then go on to say that you dont want a vollie watching your back only your "paid brother". Sounds like you do have a problem with vollies.

There is one point that I will agree with you on. There is always going to be some sort of problems between vollies and career guys. On the career side it is going to be people with attitudes and opinions like yours. On the volunteer side its going to be that the paid guys are arrogant and nothing but ego. It's been that way for years, and it aint going to change anytime soon.

[calhobs 110]

Just remember people this was started by a thankyou from hackley, Why has it been allowed to get this far, maybe the people who watch the forums should start doing there jobs and lock this, I can not see how a thank you can lead to this, you al have been given time to post a solution to this probelm, and all of you are making it worse, all i know is that my neighbor in Tarrytown neded help that day, and we were more then hapy to help them, as i am sure that the other departments were alos hapy to help. If you didnt get called BOO HOO stop your crying and become a man, It isnt the first time you were not called to a fire and it wont be the last time, if you were skipped over well maybe it is an issue you should take up with the county maybe 60 control skipped you over not tarrytown. As far as the paid vs vollie goes, the paid guys say we are not trained like you, are you trying to say the instuctors at the FTC train us differently then they train you, iif you think that you have horse s*** for brains. close this thread already Seth no one is learning anything but to hate each other more. Its a really sad day here in EMTBRAVO.

[Oswegowind 17]

585, your point about Yonkers is moot, I normally don't disagree with you, but Nodine Hill in the south section of Yonkers, and calling FDNY with unlimited resources and a good, already in place, organizational structure was not wrong. Instead of getting 8 different departments in addition to the other Westchester FD's utilized, the choice was made to go to FDNY next instead. Yonkers specifically calls 60 control and asks for Mutual Aid, I believe the plan is supplied by Yonkers to a certain extent. In my own experience, all I ever said was, "can I get 2 engines, 2 ladders mutual aid, 1 & 1 to station 1, and 1 & 1 to station 12." I know as a dispatcher that we don't ask for any particular departments, nor do we care who comes in as long as we are covered. I have also seen Dobbs in Yonkers if I am not mistaken. Unfortunately, most of the borders of Yonkers are paid fire departments, MV, EC. And some of the closer ones, the Pelhams, Hastings I would think don't have the resources to leave their immediate response areas uncovered. I could be wrong but I don't think this is comparable to the Hackley Fire.

I still think that the Hackley fire was a good job from what I have heard and seen. The fire was burning well before anyone saw it, that is just the nature of it. Calling in mutual aid for specific items of apparatus is what we have to look at. Tankers, FAS Teams...the point is that although this was a greater alarm fire, resources were called for correctly in what appears to be a timely manner and don't think it had anything to do with career vs. volunteer. The fact that Fairview did not get a letter of recognition could be a number of things, maybe they were missed on the list, maybe it got lost in the mail, maybe they are not allowed to accept donations...I really don't know why it happened, but don't express invalid opinions until all the facts have been laid out.

The last time I remember even getting a call from anyone for mutual aid from Yonkers was the fire in Greenville (Greenburgh) just over the border. Before that was the Tornado in Hawthorne...oh yeah, guess that kills the vollie v. career issue...YFD offered immediate assistance to a disaster torn area without any thought placed on that issue.

[x635 4,066]

Why has it been allowed to get this far, maybe the people who watch the forums should start doing there jobs and lock this, close this thread already Seth no one is learning anything but to hate each other more. Its a really sad day here in EMTBRAVO.

I'm not convinced, honestly. I am so frusterated. I'm actually embarrased that there are high school kids more mature then some people who call themselves firefighters. It's sickening to me to see this, and to all the people crying about this issue, and demanding it be swept under the rug.

It's time these issues start coming to light. These are issues that have been brewing for years and years, and no one wants to take any action.

As far as "doing our jobs" as moderators and administrators, as I'm going to announce later this weekend, this board will be taking a very significant change in it's mission. For almost four years now, I've seen these same problems resurface again and again, and I'm sick of it. I'm at the point where we start using this board to rally changes, learn from one another, or I shut it down.

Also, as seen in other threads, if you're confident in your operations and the way the incident was handled, then you shouldn't be so defensive. Simply explain why the actions taken were taken, so that we are all on the same level. Don't cry that this thread should be shut down because you don't like what people are saying, and not lauding you with praise.

Nobody is saying Tarrytown did a bad job, however people are trying to look at the incident and see how we can do it better in the future. If your complacent with the way you do things, then you need to get out of this business fast. There's always something to be learned, and those without an open mind are basically killing themselves.

What people are saying, is the way they actually feel. How are we supposed to handle and work out our problems if we can't even talk about them?

I am so tired of hearing this debate

I'm done with this.

It's not about I, It's about WE So what's your resolution, to keep sweeping this problem under the rug????

[bigfitz2004 19]

White Plains -Multiple Alarm Fire 3-14-04

West Harrison & North White Plains was at this fire.

[huzzie59 75]

I'm not convinced, honestly. I am so frusterated. I'm actually embarrased that there are high school kids more mature then some people who call themselves firefighters. It's sickening to me to see this, and to all the people crying about this issue, and demanding it be swept under the rug.

It's time these issues start coming to light. These are issues that have been brewing for years and years, and no one wants to take any action.

As far as "doing our jobs" as moderators and administrators, as I'm going to announce later this weekend, this board will be taking a very significant change in it's mission. For almost four years now, I've seen these same problems resurface again and again, and I'm sick of it. I'm at the point where we start using this board to rally changes, learn from one another, or I shut it down.

Also, as seen in other threads, if you're confident in your operations and the way the incident was handled, then you shouldn't be so defensive. Simply explain why the actions taken were taken, so that we are all on the same level. Don't cry that this thread should be shut down because you don't like what people are saying, and not lauding you with praise.

Nobody is saying Tarrytown did a bad job, however people are trying to look at the incident and see how we can do it better in the future. If your complacent with the way you do things, then you need to get out of this business fast. There's always something to be learned, and those without an open mind are basically killing themselves.

What people are saying, is the way they actually feel. How are we supposed to handle and work out our problems if we can't even talk about them?

It's not about I, It's about WE So what's your resolution, to keep sweeping this problem under the rug????

Then for any questions, all of the people actually involved, IC, chiefs, officers, etc. need to be involved in the initial discussion. Set up a forum to critique incidents after getting input from the actual people involved. A "newsreport" per se from a reporter who knows what questions to ask.

[Guest]

All I really have to say is vollies and carrer fire are fighting the same thing. And they are in it for the same reason. Sure career guys may get more call volumes, but does that mean that they are smarter and better? That may be the case in some areas. But not all. Thats all I really have to say. Because carrer fire fighters arguing with a vollie just disgusts me. We are all brothers and sister!

So get over it. IF you are a carrer fire, and vollies show up, you should be thankful you get some help!!

Besides. i have seen a career fire dept break every rule at an MVA. So dont say they are any better

[efdny2003 16]

Not to totally take this topic off-task, but apparently some offense was taken from my previous post about why certain paid departments were not called. I meant absolutely nothing negative about this, I'm just trying to understand how neighboring departments operate based on the incident and how A and B are done to accomplish C. I meant nothing against Tarrytown, and appologize for any harm, aggrevation, or negative feelings my post may have caused.