Fire Chief Gets Ticket in Emergency Scene Dispute

[DES630 10]

Fire Chief Gets Ticket in Emergency Scene Dispute

CENTER MORICHES, N.Y. -- A battle of the badges is brewing in Suffolk County because an assistant fire chief was given a $50 ticket when the argued with police about closing a trafffic lane at an emergency scene.

Center Moriches Fire Chief Graham Madigan has asked the department's attorney to fight the ticket given to his first assistant chief, William Renzetti.

Suffolk Police and Center Moriches fire responded to an overturned car on the shoulder of the Sunrise Highway on August

16.

Assistant Fire Chief Renzetti wanted to close both eastbound lanes . But the police officer wanted to close just one lane -- and keep the farthest lane open for traffic.

During the argument a patrol sergeant wrote Renzetti the ticket for refusing to obey a lawful order.

Patchogue attorney Harold Trabold, who represents the Center Moriches Fire Department, said Renzetti was "definitely pleading not guilty.''

[MoFire390 118]

WOW, didn't think that police officers would argue about the safety of emergency workers. But, I guess you give just some people a badge and a gun and you have a major ego trip. Which seems to be the case in this article.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Maybe it had nothing to do with ego and with common sense. Without knowing the full details of the incident its difficult to judge. I have seen many times where it was more then feasible to keep 1 lane open to get some traffic flowing and all lanes were closed. For all we know maybe a few members there "pissed" in this guys wheaties at some point or did some stupid stuff to aggravate the law enforcement they deal with.

With that said it doesn't mean I think that giving a ticket is the answer. There are other more constructive alternatives to handling a disagreement like this.

[DR104 141]

Maybe it had nothing to do with ego and with common sense. Without knowing the full details of the incident its difficult to judge. I have seen many times where it was more then feasible to keep 1 lane open to get some traffic flowing and all lanes were closed. For all we know maybe a few members there "pissed" in this guys wheaties at some point or did some stupid stuff to aggravate the law enforcement they deal with.

With that said it doesn't mean I think that giving a ticket is the answer. There are other more constructive alternatives to handling a disagreement like this.

True!!!! We do not know all the details. If they were working on the car and doing pt care(which i hope isn't the case) then yes shut down the highway, if they were just waiting for a tow then let the trafic flow. It happens all the time were I work.

[robert benz 344]

this topic has been addressed more than once on this forum at least they had one lane closed

[Guest]

Interesting.

I was under the impression that when there is an mva and the Fire Department is involved, it becomes the fire department's "scene", unless a crime scene(DUI). If this is the case, I believe it is the Chief of the Fire Department who is in charge(therefore his/her call). No? I certainly realize the sensitivity of "who's jurisdiction" a scene is based on previous forums, so I want to be careful what I say.

Any chance that someone can clear this up with fact and not opinion?

Too many firefighters, police officers, and ems get killed on the roads beacuse of traffic. Who cares if traffic builds up when you close the road, do police officers get reprimanded if a road is closed for too long? Do they get their "stones" busted if they comply with what a fire cheif or ems supervisor recommends?

I just don't get it because the police officers in my town have a great working relationship with all agencies. I think the key is respecting eachother for what they do and helping to get the job done together.

[hudson144 150]

what happens when we all pass an MVA- Including us we rubber neck! If you don't need to shut the roadway down and you decide to keep a lane open someone needs to enforce a minimal speed limit to help protect us as we work. Too many times out on the cross county or hutch we stand there waiting to see what fool is going to lose control of their vehicle as the rubberneck and hit us. After some strong convincing and it wasn't easy our policy is now to send the truck co. to assist the engine co. with the MVA and to use the truck co. as a block. Nationwide emergency responders are hit as they are assisting others. There is no excuse for the lane that is open to still be doing 20 mph or more. If you don't feel the same way go to close calls.com and read the mishaps from throughout the nation. might change your mind. NYSP have certainly seen their share of Troopers hit at MVA's especially on rte 17. Protect your crews-shut it down or slow it down!!!

[JJB531 652]

I think some of us are jumping to conclusions on this one... nowhere in the brief article is there even a mention of any patients involved with this incident. We're already talking about patients, and who's scene it is, and who's in charge, blah blah blah. There is not enough evidence in the brief post to determine who's right and who's wrong.

If there were patient care activities taking place, then I'd lean to the side of caution and shut down the highway until all patients are packaged and removed from the scene.

If this was just a rollover with no patients, no fuel leaks, and no fire... then I'd have to side with the PD on this one. It's an MVA... and without the need for FD, it is a PD scene to conduct an accident investigation and await a tow truck to remove the vehicle from the roadway.

As I said, the article is not specific as to the incident that took place other than the fact that it was a vehicle rollover.

[JJB531 652]

WOW, didn't think that police officers would argue about the safety of emergency workers. But, I guess you give just some people a badge and a gun and you have a major ego trip. Which seems to be the case in this article.

I don't think ego trips are inherent to just police officers... you can't make any conclusions from this article.. it's so vague we don't know any details from the initial incident.

[x129K 1,393]

Is Oneeye working on the Island now??

[MoFire390 118]

I didnt mean to start a war. To me when i read that the chief asked for the road to be closed it was obvious that something major was going on. So thats how I made my discussion. And yeah i dont know if the officer was new or not it just sounded like he was because most of yall know that when your IC and you ask for the road to be closed by a Veteran they have no problem closing it for you (except PPD). Am I right?

[Guest]

It is true that no one knows the details of this incident presented, but it has brought up a good topic about the safety of emergency personnel. More then once I've been on the Interstate that my Department covers and I've felt unsafe because of a lane being open and traffic speeds up when they are going through the scene. Yes, in a lot of incidents there is no reason for the lane to be closed I agree, but how safe do you feel when the traffic goes by you going faster than they should be going? I don't know how many agree with this, but how many times have you passed an accident scene and you have to look?.. it's a force of habit that I'm sure alot of us can't help, and the same goes for other drivers, and this is why I would feel safer if there was some kind of enforcement when it comes to MVA's, especially on the highways/interstates, something should be done for all of general safety.

I don't know what happened with the incident with the Chief nor am I going to try to assume what happened either.. what happened there happened and if they wanted us to know they would have flat out said it. This is something that should be handled in the manner of their attorney and non of our suggestions or comments about either the Chief or Police Department. I do wish the Best of Luck to the Chief whatever the circumstances may be.

[Guest]

Are any of you familiar with the Merrit Parkway? If you are in Westchester, it is just like the Hutch near the Greenwich line. The road is as dangerous as they come. 2 tights lanes, drive at your own speed type of road(although 55 posted speed limit). My district covers and approximate 5 mile stretch(3 exits) and plenty of hills, turns, and trees that show scars of accidents past.

We go out on this road several times a week and often there is plenty of ammunition to close the both lanes for a brief time. But I must say, the times we are out there and a lane is left open the pucker factor is increased X 10. Cars continue to whizzz by at whichever speed they desire(all the while staring into the scene). It just doesn't feel safe, ever.

Just trying to say we need to do a little more risk vs. benefit analysis when we are on these roads. And to be honest, I worry a little more about the Police officers who don't have a $350,000 barrier to protect them from getting struck or scotchlite striping all over their bodies. I constantly think of the youtube video with the fedex truck.

Edited August 23, 2007 by jdwes32

[OnTheWheel 43]

Its been said 5 times in the thread, no one knows the situation on this accident. And we can what if it till the thread explodes, what if its on the third Friday of the month and its a leap year and the patient has a broken right arm but his left pinky is stuck in the cd player BLAH BLAH BLAH. We need to take each and every scene and treat it as its own, not put a blanket statement on closing roads, its impossible to do that. And a safety advisory, if youre "sitting there waiting for a tow", the safest place ISNT on the rear step shooting the breeze with everyone nor the front bumper for that matter.Just because theres a big truck there doesnt mean you have to stand next to it in the open lane and talk. Stand away from the open lane and the truck and it might increase the safety, but again, every scene is different. And yes, that applies to all three branches! BE SAFE!

[hudson144 150]

JJB-keep in mind how many police officers are struck even if there is no fire,injurys etc. its dangerous enough for an officer just to issue a traffic ticket for a moving violation. remember all the videos that we see on those shows of officers getting wacked by passing motorists on a routine type call. overall no matter what you are out there for its a major hazard to all! add a little snow/rain it even multiplies the hazards. B safe!

[DOC22 1]

Ok, there is a new law doubling fines for speeding in work zones. Well when we are out there there's no such law. Why don't we try to have something enacted reducing the speed limit to, say, 10 MPH, with the same or similar fines levied.

[Guest]

Great idea, But it would only work on a national level.

[firemoose827 324]

Ok, there is a new law doubling fines for speeding in work zones. Well when we are out there there's no such law. Why don't we try to have something enacted reducing the speed limit to, say, 10 MPH, with the same or similar fines levied.

THATS what I was looking for....a pro-active way of solving this thread instead of arguing over opinions and no facts. Good idea DOC, make a state law requiring all Speed Limits to drop to 10mph for ALL emergency scenes. Than further break it down to say that an emergency scene is anyplace with an emergency vehicle displaying warning devices with appropriate fire police/Law enforcement staffing to guide traffic through scene. This would protect us at fire scenes too, where we have our handlines and supply lines everywhere and firefighters all over the place trying to do their jobs....GOOD idea!!!!

[OnTheWheel 43]

NYS does have a law in effect 1180/e

(e) The driver of every vehicle shall, consistent with the

requirements of subdivision (a) of this section, drive at an appropriate

reduced speed when approaching and crossing an intersection or railway

grade crossing, when approaching and going around a curve, when

approaching a hill crest, when approaching and passing by an emergency

situation involving any authorized emergency vehicle which is parked,

stopped or standing on a highway and which is displaying one or more red

or combination red and white lights pursuant to the provisions of

paragraph two of subdivision forty-one of section three hundred

seventy-five of this chapter, when traveling upon any narrow or winding

roadway, and when any special hazard exists with respect to pedestrians,

or other traffic by reason of weather or highway conditions, including,

but not limited to a highway construction or maintenance work area.

1180/a covers reasonable and prudent speed. VERY open to Officer's interpritation. I havent had the pleasure of writing this, because im usually involved with why the road is closed, but mark my words, I WILL HAMMER SOMEONE SOON! Ive been waiting......

[firemoose827 324]

NYS does have a law in effect 1180/e

(e) The driver of every vehicle shall, consistent with the

requirements of subdivision (a) of this section, drive at an appropriate

reduced speed when approaching and crossing an intersection or railway

grade crossing, when approaching and going around a curve, when

approaching a hill crest, when approaching and passing by an emergency

situation involving any authorized emergency vehicle which is parked,

stopped or standing on a highway and which is displaying one or more red

or combination red and white lights pursuant to the provisions of

paragraph two of subdivision forty-one of section three hundred

seventy-five of this chapter, when traveling upon any narrow or winding

roadway, and when any special hazard exists with respect to pedestrians,

or other traffic by reason of weather or highway conditions, including,

but not limited to a highway construction or maintenance work area.

1180/a covers reasonable and prudent speed. VERY open to Officer's interpritation. I havent had the pleasure of writing this, because im usually involved with why the road is closed, but mark my words, I WILL HAMMER SOMEONE SOON! Ive been waiting......

Cool.......you learn something new every day. Go get em onthewheel!!! Is this enforceable with tickets and such? Or is this just a warning type deal?

[JetPhoto 626]

I'm no lawyer and just pulling this information from my undies but I believe that

If it is a accident the FD takes charge until the victims and or hazards are removed. If it is a fire than the FD owns the scene until the fire is out and personnel and equipment have been removed. *If it is a fatal fire the pd are gonna want that scene as soon as they can...so they can wait an hour for the crime scene /reconstruction team to get there.

Like I said this could be totally false info but I think that's the way it works.

(someone wanna send me to law school???)

[OnTheWheel 43]

Its a ticket! Warnings dont work, I learned that early on and as I pull over the SAME PEOPLE the NEXT day for the SAME thing I just feel better giving that second ticket!

[DOC22 1]

NYS does have a law in effect 1180/e

(e) The driver of every vehicle shall, consistent with the

requirements of subdivision (a) of this section, drive at an appropriate

reduced speed when approaching and crossing an intersection or railway

grade crossing, when approaching and going around a curve, when

approaching a hill crest, when approaching and passing by an emergency

situation involving any authorized emergency vehicle which is parked,

stopped or standing on a highway and which is displaying one or more red

or combination red and white lights pursuant to the provisions of

paragraph two of subdivision forty-one of section three hundred

seventy-five of this chapter, when traveling upon any narrow or winding

roadway, and when any special hazard exists with respect to pedestrians,

or other traffic by reason of weather or highway conditions, including,

but not limited to a highway construction or maintenance work area.

1180/a covers reasonable and prudent speed. VERY open to Officer's interpritation. I havent had the pleasure of writing this, because im usually involved with why the road is closed, but mark my words, I WILL HAMMER SOMEONE SOON! Ive been waiting......

Yes, that's great. but as you said, it's open to the Officer's discretion If I were in LE, anything over 10 MPH going thru an emergency scene. I remember years back when I worked for a tow outfit, we were woeking a minor PDAA on 684, on a snowey Saturday afternoon. The Trooper wrote the guy for that imprudent speed, the guy was not a happy camper. He said "But I was only going 10 MPH! Trooper said, well you were doing 10 MPH, and had an accident, you should have been going slower. I just laughed at him.

[nycemt728 49]

When are we going to learn to work together???? Instead of hiding behind inflated egos, badges, guns and turnourts, everyone at the scene of any incident should ask one simple question to eachother: OK bro, what can we do to make this work; what do we need to do to make sure everyone is safe and taken care of? If we can do this, everyone goes home happy: the public, the responders and the patients. I don't care if it's wishful thinking, it's what needs to be done!! I'm so sick of all these fights, tickets and arguments...can anyone honestly say it has produced anything other than bad press and a hate for those we need to work next to? I would hate to have a loved oness life hanging in balance while responders have a pissing contest!

[OnTheWheel 43]

Yes, that's great. but as you said, it's open to the Officer's discretion If I were in LE, anything over 10 MPH going thru an emergency scene. I remember years back when I worked for a tow outfit, we were woeking a minor PDAA on 684, on a snowey Saturday afternoon. The Trooper wrote the guy for that imprudent speed, the guy was not a happy camper. He said "But I was only going 10 MPH! Trooper said, well you were doing 10 MPH, and had an accident, you should have been going slower. I just laughed at him.

Its open to interpritation, everything is at the officers discretion. That works in our favor, if there was a set limit on it then my hands would be tied, maybe 10 is too fast at times and it should be 5, the more leeway I have, the better off i am.

[DOC22 1]

Its open to interpritation, everything is at the officers discretion. That works in our favor, if there was a set limit on it then my hands would be tied, maybe 10 is too fast at times and it should be 5, the more leeway I have, the better off i am.

Ok, I can see that. Now we need to have enough Police Officers to enforce this. Oh, I have another I684 story for ya about enough Troopers and lane closures. It'd be a long post but if you want I'll post it or PM ya

[16fire5 693]

NYS law is vauge on this and if anything I think it goes with PD. No where does it say that if there are patients in the vehicle FD is in charge. Many people try to say the FD is in charge if there is a fire or threat of a fire, but mostly this is a stretch. Quoting the law to a cop on the scene will get you no where especially when you are wrong. Like others have said it's best to have this worked out ahead of time.

[khas143 13]

Suffolk Police and Center Moriches fire responded to an overturned car on the shoulder of the Sunrise Highway on August

16.

Assistant Fire Chief Renzetti wanted to close both eastbound lanes . But the police officer wanted to close just one lane -- and keep the farthest lane open for traffic.

During the argument a patrol sergeant wrote Renzetti the ticket for refusing to obey a lawful order.

Patchogue attorney Harold Trabold, who represents the Center Moriches Fire Department, said Renzetti was "definitely pleading not guilty.''

If the accident was on the shoulder, that would have given emergency responders the right lane of traffic to work. I would think that one entire lane of traffic would be sufficient. I know I have worked with less space than that on both the EMS and PD side of the house.

[Guest]

Fire Chief Gets Ticket in Emergency Scene Dispute

CENTER MORICHES, N.Y. -- A battle of the badges is brewing in Suffolk County because an assistant fire chief was given a $50 ticket when the argued with police about closing a trafffic lane at an emergency scene.

Center Moriches Fire Chief Graham Madigan has asked the department's attorney to fight the ticket given to his first assistant chief, William Renzetti.

Suffolk Police and Center Moriches fire responded to an overturned car on the shoulder of the Sunrise Highway on August

16.

Assistant Fire Chief Renzetti wanted to close both eastbound lanes . But the police officer wanted to close just one lane -- and keep the farthest lane open for traffic.

During the argument a patrol sergeant wrote Renzetti the ticket for refusing to obey a lawful order.

Patchogue attorney Harold Trabold, who represents the Center Moriches Fire Department, said Renzetti was "definitely pleading not guilty.''

Here's the Newsday article on it whichas a little more information:

A $50 ticket issued to a Suffolk assistant fire chief by a Suffolk County police officer last week has bruised feelings between the two departments and highlighted the sometimes vague rules about who is in charge during emergencies.

"There is no anger, but I'm not going to say this is a routine thing," said Center Moriches Fire Chief Graham Madigan, who has asked the department's attorney to fight the ticket given to his first assistant chief, William Renzetti.

Such turf battles are rare in Suffolk County, where firefighters and police officers routinely work side by side to secure the scenes of crimes and accidents, officials on both sides said. But the question of who is in charge when multiple agencies respond to emergencies is a "gray area," even in relatively minor traffic accidents, according to Joseph Williams, Suffolk Fire, Rescue and Emergency Services commissioner.

Both police and fire officials described the incident that preceded the unusual summons -- an overturned car on the shoulder of Sunrise Highway in Center Moriches on Aug. 16 -- as a serious but routine call.

Although this conflict appears to have been more of a personal dispute than a jurisdictional one, officials said it developed in part because there is no one rule that establishes command, and officers from different agencies must rely on training and cool heads to establish responsibilities.

In this instance, as highway patrol police and Center Moriches firefighters arrived to help a person temporarily trapped in the flipped car, an argument broke out between Renzetti and police officers, according to Williams.

While Renzetti argued for closing both eastbound lanes to provide additional protection, Williams said, police wanted to allow the lane of traffic farthest from the accident to remain open. At some point after the argument, a patrol sergeant wrote Renzetti the ticket for refusing to obey a lawful order.

Williams said he did not know the exact nature of the conflict or what lawful order Renzetti allegedly refused to obey. "Both of them were trying to do their jobs, and what happened exactly between them, well, I don't know," Williams said. Renzetti was out of town yesterday and not available for comment.

Patchogue attorney Harold Trabold, who represents the Center Moriches Fire Department, said Renzetti was "definitely pleading not guilty" but that he was still looking into what sparked the disagreement. Trabold said the conflict appeared to have escalated when Sgt. Michael Mahr pursued Renzetti and wrote the ticket after Renzetti drove away from the scene.

"It's the principle of the chief's responsibilty at the scene that's at issue," Trabold said. Madigan said his department would be willing to pay the ticket "if we thought in any way we were guilty."

Williams noted that police usually arrive at traffic accidents before firefighters and set up a perimeter, which often includes diverting traffic.

"Generally, in my experience, I've seen the police department directing traffic in these kinds of incidents," he said.

But Madigan argued that firefighters often arrive in greater numbers in larger vehicles that can be used to protect responders. "As a rule, firefighters take over traffic control in a traffic accident situation," he said.

Both Williams and Suffolk Police Commissioner Richard Dormer called the confrontation an isolated incident. "We have an outstanding relationship with the fire service and we expect that to continue," Dormer said.

[MoFire390 118]

Here's the Newsday article on it whichas a little more information:

A $50 ticket issued to a Suffolk assistant fire chief by a Suffolk County police officer last week has bruised feelings between the two departments and highlighted the sometimes vague rules about who is in charge during emergencies.

"There is no anger, but I'm not going to say this is a routine thing," said Center Moriches Fire Chief Graham Madigan, who has asked the department's attorney to fight the ticket given to his first assistant chief, William Renzetti.

Such turf battles are rare in Suffolk County, where firefighters and police officers routinely work side by side to secure the scenes of crimes and accidents, officials on both sides said. But the question of who is in charge when multiple agencies respond to emergencies is a "gray area," even in relatively minor traffic accidents, according to Joseph Williams, Suffolk Fire, Rescue and Emergency Services commissioner.

Both police and fire officials described the incident that preceded the unusual summons -- an overturned car on the shoulder of Sunrise Highway in Center Moriches on Aug. 16 -- as a serious but routine call.

Although this conflict appears to have been more of a personal dispute than a jurisdictional one, officials said it developed in part because there is no one rule that establishes command, and officers from different agencies must rely on training and cool heads to establish responsibilities.

In this instance, as highway patrol police and Center Moriches firefighters arrived to help a person temporarily trapped in the flipped car, an argument broke out between Renzetti and police officers, according to Williams.

While Renzetti argued for closing both eastbound lanes to provide additional protection, Williams said, police wanted to allow the lane of traffic farthest from the accident to remain open. At some point after the argument, a patrol sergeant wrote Renzetti the ticket for refusing to obey a lawful order.

Williams said he did not know the exact nature of the conflict or what lawful order Renzetti allegedly refused to obey. "Both of them were trying to do their jobs, and what happened exactly between them, well, I don't know," Williams said. Renzetti was out of town yesterday and not available for comment.

Patchogue attorney Harold Trabold, who represents the Center Moriches Fire Department, said Renzetti was "definitely pleading not guilty" but that he was still looking into what sparked the disagreement. Trabold said the conflict appeared to have escalated when Sgt. Michael Mahr pursued Renzetti and wrote the ticket after Renzetti drove away from the scene.

"It's the principle of the chief's responsibilty at the scene that's at issue," Trabold said. Madigan said his department would be willing to pay the ticket "if we thought in any way we were guilty."

Williams noted that police usually arrive at traffic accidents before firefighters and set up a perimeter, which often includes diverting traffic.

"Generally, in my experience, I've seen the police department directing traffic in these kinds of incidents," he said.

But Madigan argued that firefighters often arrive in greater numbers in larger vehicles that can be used to protect responders. "As a rule, firefighters take over traffic control in a traffic accident situation," he said.

Both Williams and Suffolk Police Commissioner Richard Dormer called the confrontation an isolated incident. "We have an outstanding relationship with the fire service and we expect that to continue," Dormer said.

I still want to know more. From the sounds of things the officer that wrote the ticket has been there for a long time. So i retract my previous statement about the power trip. It gets said in this new article that it was serious but routine. since when is there a "routine" call? aren't we taught that no call is "routine"?

Edited August 24, 2007 by DOC22
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