Back Up Spotter Confirm Button

[x635 4,066]

While shooting New Britain, CT's EMS fleet a few weeks ago, I noticed when they backed up the bus, the spotter hit a button in the back of the ambulance.

This is part of the on-board "black-box" computer. It confirms that a spotter was there. I think the vehicle has to be in reverse, but won't budge until the spotter hits it.

Pretty neat idea. Does anyone else employ this practice?

It's just a little button on the drivers side rear of the ambulance. Hardly noticeable.

[Danger 160]

Alamo uses it.

[Guest]

We have them at work, but its makes a rig useless if you need someone to hit it to get it to back up. On the new TL's they tried to put in a similar switch on the Curb side of the rig so that the OV could verify that the outrigger was unobstructed, another joke and luckily they have an override button on the control panel.

Edited January 12, 2008 by roofsopen

[jack10562 414]

I would like to find out more about this device.

Backing-up is a major source of preventable accidents we experience at my job.

[RWC130 594]

What do you do in a situation when your partner is in the back with a patient

and you have to back up into the Emergency Room?

Can the vehicle operator use a manual override?

[celticmedic643 2]

Alamo has a black box system known as "Road Safe". Before you operate a vehicle you key in with a magnetic key. This registers you as the driver. The system monitors everything you could think of from seatbelt use, hard braking, hard turns, speeding ( speed set at 72 mph ) can be changed. It also monitors lights and sirens. It is a pretty neat system. Employees recieve a score from 0-10 based on thier driving. If you speed or brake too hard ect. the box buzzes and takes points off of your score. The more miles you put on " your key " the better your score becomes. The button on the back off the ambulance needs to be pushed prior to reversing. There is also a button inside the vehicle above the back window that can be pushed if your partner is with a patient.

Edited January 12, 2008 by celticmedic643

[Bnechis 3,961]

While shooting New Britain, CT's EMS fleet a few weeks ago, I noticed when they backed up the bus, the spotter hit a button in the back of the ambulance.

This is part of the on-board "black-box" computer. It confirms that a spotter was there. I think the vehicle has to be in reverse, but won't budge until the spotter hits it.

Pretty neat idea. Does anyone else employ this practice?

It's just a little button on the drivers side rear of the ambulance. Hardly noticeable.

While it sounds like a good way to confirm that someone is back there, and save the agency money on the vehicle insurance, its a good way to get the crew killed.

1st the last place i want a crew member to go to when the rigis ready to back up is the drivers blind spot.

2nd I have been on a number of calls where the crowds got out of hand and the only way to save my patient, my partner and myself was to back out. If we had to get out of the rig, a) one of us was going to get killed and the rig still could not back up.

3rd I know of at least 3 calls in westchester where EMS raced in to a reported officer down and came under fire from the gunman. 2 cases were able to rapidly back up the 3rd, the gun man waited till they were out of the rig before he started shoting at them...they spent the next few hours under the bus. One of the medics proudly displayed the trauma box with the bullet hole thru it.

While this does not happen often, installing these systems apears to be an extreme reaction, and shows that managment does not trust its staff (It could be that the staff can't be trusted, but thats another issue).

[Goose 188]

While it sounds like a good way to confirm that someone is back there, and save the agency money on the vehicle insurance, its a good way to get the crew killed.

1st the last place i want a crew member to go to when the rigis ready to back up is the drivers blind spot.

2nd I have been on a number of calls where the crowds got out of hand and the only way to save my patient, my partner and myself was to back out. If we had to get out of the rig, a) one of us was going to get killed and the rig still could not back up.

3rd I know of at least 3 calls in westchester where EMS raced in to a reported officer down and came under fire from the gunman. 2 cases were able to rapidly back up the 3rd, the gun man waited till they were out of the rig before he started shoting at them...they spent the next few hours under the bus. One of the medics proudly displayed the trauma box with the bullet hole thru it.

While this does not happen often, installing these systems apears to be an extreme reaction, and shows that managment does not trust its staff (It could be that the staff can't be trusted, but thats another issue).

The button doesn't need to be depressed constantly. You put it into reverse, the system notifies you (via a beep) that you need to be spotted, your partner hops out presses the buttom and then steps to the side - out of your blind spot - and backs you up. If your dumb enough to hit back up at like 50mph and run your partner over you probably shouldn't be driving an ambulance .

You can still back up your truck if the button is not pushed , like celtic said, if you don't hit the button you will get a lower score but it's not as if it disables the truck from backing up, it just spits out a really annoying audible buzz and records that you backed up w/o a spotter.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Goose

[LTNRFD 266]

3rd, the gun man waited till they were out of the rig before he started shoting at them...they spent the next few hours under the bus. One of the medics proudly displayed the trauma box with the bullet hole thru it.

Go-Go Gomez

[IzzyEng4 427]

Not a bad idea. As long as it is in a place were the backer can still be seen then I guess its OK.

It reminds me of the old fire trucks with rear steps having the buzzer buttons on the rear. (1 = Stop, 2 = Go)

[Bnechis 3,961]

The button doesn't need to be depressed constantly. You put it into reverse, the system notifies you (via a beep) that you need to be spotted, your partner hops out presses the buttom and then steps to the side - out of your blind spot - and backs you up. If your dumb enough to hit back up at like 50mph and run your partner over you probably shouldn't be driving an ambulance

I've seen lots of people who should not be driving an ambulance.

You can still back up your truck if the button is not pushed , like celtic said, if you don't hit the button you will get a lower score but it's not as if it disables the truck from backing up, it just spits out a really annoying audible buzz and records that you backed up w/o a spotter.

My quote was based on the statement "you can't back up without hitting it"

I still question the wholw concept. While having a spotter is a great idea, if you don't have a 3rd, I believe you are abandoning your patient to stand behind the vehicle to back it up. Even if the pt is minr or BS...its still abandonment.

In 1986 my ambulance (NYH-CMC HRIT) got a back up camera and that solves this issue. With the camera, the driver has no blind spots and with the audio system you can hear anyone who yells out. I see these camera's commonly on campers, busses, fire trucks, trucks and now mini-vans. But very few ambulances.

It appears to me that municipal agencies are not turning to this system, but commercial servces are. Why is that? Is it there a difference between the two?

[OnTheWheel 43]

What if youre making a k-turn in the middle of the roadway, someone has to jump out? Sounds like something that should be on a garbage truck or something, not an emergency vehicle. Too many situations that we can "what if" to death that would make this button overkill on any emergency vehicle.

[LTNRFD 266]

to stand behind any emergency vehicle to push a button is an accident waiting to happen. With all the money that is spent on new rigs, they should included back up cameras and back up sensors. My "old 2000 Ford Windstar" mini van had a back up sensor that worked great and now I have a car with a back up camera and another with a camera and back up sensors.

With technology where it is today, ALL Vehicles should be equipped with these SAFETY features.

[Guest EFFP411]

Our ambulance has a back-up camera angled down to see the rear bumper, but its not centered. There is a very small portion of the driver's side rear that cannot be seen, and can be a royal pain sometimes. The screen is a slim screen mounted in the sun visor. its pretty neat, but sometimes its still better to have someone back there too watch out....

[emtpjimd 1]

When I was at AMR, I referred to the system as the Road Hazard system. Having used that and a backup camera at my current employer, the backup camera is safer. Many problems came with the "scoring" and the Road Safety box. One was that the vehicle has to be in top notch shape, or that alarm that goes off behind your head will sound on turns into a parking lot, etc. Then, the alarm goes off during hard braking, making you less likely to stop suddenly before hitting the dog in the road, etc, because you get points taken off your record and you've been conditioned to not have the alarm sound. The backup button is a nuisance, but was bypassed easily. Many of the ambulance bays have a slight downward slope into the bay and we just put the truck in reverse and rolled back. A better system would be to combine a backup camera and a drive-cam system...at least there would be some form of way to backup and disqualify appropriate evasive actions.

[ny10570 745]

I still question the wholw concept. While having a spotter is a great idea, if you don't have a 3rd, I believe you are abandoning your patient to stand behind the vehicle to back it up. Even if the pt is minr or BS...its still abandonment.

Getting out to spot a vehicle is not pt abandonment.

[Medic137 6]

Getting out to spot a vehicle is not pt abandonment.

As said above, there is a button inside the patient compartment. The crew member in the back can press it without leaving the patient. Hopefully he glances out the back window while doing it to warn the driver of anything behind the rig.

[MPACE2-299 0]

Did any one ever think of UPS? I bet they back up 1000 times more than any ambulance too, 90% of the time they are driver alone and back up vehicles larger than an ambulance with no back windows, or any one backing up. They seem to get by using back up camara’s.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Getting out to spot a vehicle is not pt abandonment.

While there are times you may have to leave the patients side, the lawyers will beat you solid on it.

This is from a EMS Law firm:

Abandonment

EMT-Is may terminate the medical relationship without fear of being held liable for abandonment under the following circumstances:

· Patient does not require medical assistance

· Patient terminates the relationship

· Patient care is transferred to another medical professional

Getting out may be interpreted as temporary termination. Particularly if there are other methods to safely back the vehicle.

In Fundamentals of Emergency Care By Richard W. O. Beebe, Deborah L. Funk

They claim that leaving the patient for any reason is abandonment.

On the stand when the lawyer asks you to read the highlighted portion.......you will have a problem. If your defense is its company policy, but the training from the state and the textbook say otherwise.

[Bnechis 3,961]

As said above, there is a button inside the patient compartment. The crew member in the back can press it without leaving the patient. Hopefully he glances out the back window while doing it to warn the driver of anything behind the rig.

That tells me that this system considers that a spotter is only important sometimes. It solves the abandonment issue, but if you hit the inside button, then the driver backs into something, I think your liability just went way up.

You need a system that works every time.

Back up sensors

Camera's

BackStop bumper mounted break system, etc.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

So we have another situation of lets stretch legal terms and throw in the lawsuit fear factor that many still live by in the EMS world.

Anything can be interpreted as anything by any lawyer.

I have not read nor heard of any cases involving patient abandonment that did not involve some adverse outcome for the patient. If stopping what your doing could compromise the patient outcome or cause you to stop a skill that involves your ABC's...don't leave. I think it would be hard to find a lawyer standing with a clip board to document you if you had to get out and back up the ambulance if its the safest thing to do.

[Bnechis 3,961]

So we have another situation of lets stretch legal terms and throw in the lawsuit fear factor that many still live by in the EMS world.

Anything can be interpreted as anything by any lawyer.

Having testified a few times (as a witness) I was amazed at how far the lawers stretched the terms.

for example I was grilled for over 45 minutes on the little times box on the PCR. One of the lawers was able to make a 3 minute response time look like it could have been 12 minutes in the jury's mind. We could have walked the 10 blocks in that time.

I have not read nor heard of any cases involving patient abandonment that did not involve some adverse outcome for the patient. If stopping what your doing could compromise the patient outcome or cause you to stop a skill that involves your ABC's...don't leave.

Agreed. My point was that I think there are safer ways to deal with this. I think this is a system that is used by commercial services to control employees, when proper training, supervision, personnel selection and equipment would be better.

[Guest]

There r these things called MIRRORS TRY USING THEM LOL

[Future Fireman 4]

There r these things called MIRRORS TRY USING THEM LOL

Yeah Dave, there are such things as mirrors and you (pointed at everybody not just you Dave) could certaintly use one on the top back corner of the box. However, there's 2 problems with that 1: You may shear it off down a very narrow street or passing vehicle and 2: "Objects in mirror may seem closer than they appear"

Mike

[ny10570 745]

In my time delivering construction supplies and my time driving the medicaid taxi I never had a back-up camera, never had a back step mirror, and rarely had a spotter. I had two mirrors. Look at where you are going to be parking as you approach. Find your landmarks and back up. I have crap for depth perception yet I have never trashed a vehicle on a loading dock or ER bay. Just open your eyes and slow down.

[helicopper 1,050]

Go-Go Gomez

Wasn't that Ron Hernandez?

[helicopper 1,050]

I still question the wholw concept. While having a spotter is a great idea, if you don't have a 3rd, I believe you are abandoning your patient to stand behind the vehicle to back it up. Even if the pt is minr or BS...its still abandonment.

Come on, lawyers may stretch it to try to make it look like abandonment but it's not abandonment if you're facilitating their treatment or transportation by making sure you can depart the scene safely (backing up) or getting equipment from the rig while performing an extrication or something like that. There has to be a termination of patient care, not a pause in care. It may be argued otherwise but the reality is that if you back over someone behind you or have an accident you're going to have a harder time!

I agree with ALS, if you're ventilating the patient you can't stop to push the button so the driver can back-up. That's absurd. But to move to the back windows to clear the rig for backing with 95% of your patients you're not interrupting - or terminating - their care.

Here's a good article on abandonment from JEMS magazine... JEMS article

[sr71 1]

Yeah Dave, there are such things as mirrors and you (pointed at everybody not just you Dave) could certaintly use one on the top back corner of the box. However, there's 2 problems with that 1: You may shear it off down a very narrow street or passing vehicle and 2: "Objects in mirror may seem closer than they appear"

Mike

If you know how to judge distance and drive with the mirrors correctly than that takes care of the two issues you stated. if you shear off one side of mirrors than when reversing you line up the truck (in this case ambulance) to whatever side the remaining mirror is on and use those rear wheels as your pivot point. As you learn to drive the ambulance of fire truck you learn a great deal about how to judge the distance out of the mirrors because you have to watch where your rear wheels are from curbs and other hazards when making turns as well as setting them as your pivot point while reversing.

Edited January 15, 2008 by sr71

[LTNRFD 266]

Wasn't that Ron Hernandez?

Yes it was!

[rfdu39 89]

This sounds like a great thing to have on all emergency vehicles.