Mamaroneck (Town of) Working Structure Fire

[M' Ave 1,466]

We have spoke about this a million times here so why would you be walking the edge of a landmine here. First off mutual aid should not be called for the purpose of rescue. The first due companies will effect any and all rescues. Second off if said companies are making rescues and lose said structure it is the taxpayers fault not ours for not having proper staffing levels. Third and last why would you call for mutual aid from a volly dept and waste precious time when paid depts are only a phone call away.

I believe the initial M/A calls were made by the county's guy and hopefully the decision was made by proximety. I agree, I wouldn't call a volunteer dept. if they were going to have trouble assembling a crew, but there are many that don't. Whom ever is calling M/A should have some idea of reliability and I believe they usually have such an idea.

All in all, it was a frigid morning and sounds like a rough job. Well done to all.

[FirNaTine 370]

The decision on who to call into their municipality, whether it be for coverage or to the scene should be made by those in charge, not the mother hen at 60 Control. I really don't think we need civilian dispatchers telling a Chief in charge of a fire, who and what he needs from a Communications Center miles away, not to mention having County Coordinators show up at a scene with their white helmets who stand around like they're in charge. Nothing personal, but I think the Chiefs of a Dept. are fully capable of this. Enough is Enough! All this can be taken care of also by Depts. who have their own dispatchers and don't rely on 60 Control. Those that don't, then that's another story. Fortunately, my Dept. has its own dispatching capabilities and I wouldn't change it for the world. In fact more Depts should strive for this. I'm sure there'd be less of a chance of Depts. stepping on each other during busy times. I've even heard of incidents where our own dispatchers didn't even know certain Depts. were in the city covering Stations, because the Coordinator at the scene was requesting and placing apparatus where he saw fit, without advising our Communications Center or the IC. Are you kidding me? Talk about accountability. I know everybody means well but sometimes they overstep their bounds. Maybe they should stay behind the yellow tape, like one coordinator was asked to do at one of our Jobs by the Deputy Chief in charge. Everybody shouldn't feel the need to be important and outrank others.

[lad12derff 283]

No, the information that you recieved is definately incorrect. Yes, there was a command board set up, with the IC standing by right next to it.

Thank you. I was also corrected by another person via Nextel. I found it odd but I had to ask.

[lad12derff 283]

That's constructive........

Sorry for stirring the pot

[StOpGoBlUE 11]

sorry we dont run departments like purchase does joey, your living a pipe dream kidd keep dreaming westchester will never be like kentland its a diffrent type of living, working and command

[TL2L31 8]

We have spoke about this a million times here so why would you be walking the edge of a landmine here. First off mutual aid should not be called for the purpose of rescue. The first due companies will effect any and all rescues. Second off if said companies are making rescues and lose said structure it is the taxpayers fault not ours for not having proper staffing levels. Third and last why would you call for mutual aid from a volly dept and waste precious time when paid depts are only a phone call away.

Because sometimes its better to get a fully staffed volly rig than a piece of equipment with only a paid driver.

[TL2L31 8]

I also heard from a very relable source that on one of Mamaroneck's rigs were an off duty New Rochelle ff and 2 FDNY ff's. So you never know who is on a volly rig, do you.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Anybody that has been a member of the network for longer than 10 minutes should know that Westchester County has a bogus system (lack of) when it comes to the fire service........ The county is simply there for us as a resource provider when they should have more decision making capabilities. Each department does what they want, when they want to... both career and volunteer. The crazy thing is there isnt a higher power to tell them otherwise. It goes as high up as the chief of the department and stops. Their is no county policy because nobody wants to be told what to do. Nobody that works/volunteers in this county has the right to talk about anyone, because their system is flawed... across the board.

Anyone interested in seeing how Westchester should be...

CLICK BELOW

http://www.kentland33.com/sop/generalorder...tch20041115.doc

http://www.kentland33.com/sop/ralorder3-7,...ember5,2004.doc

An interesting contradiction in this post, we should be more like Kentland.......but we should let DES oversee what we do. Last fall PGFD (the county) wanted to put a paid medic unit in to their station to reduce response time and the chiefs refused..."the county can't tell us what to do".

While FF wants to catch "good" jobs, if you look in IFSTA the primary role of a FF is to protect life. This also means Preventing fires. Kentland is very proud that they catch more fires than most career FD's, but maybe if they would spend time doing fire inspections they would be reducing the pain and suffering of the community. But of course that would not be as much fun as being able to brag about all the responses.

"The crazy thing is there isnt a higher power to tell them otherwise. It goes as high up as the chief of the department and stops. Their is no county policy because nobody wants to be told what to do. "

While in some cases depts. don't want to be told what to do, in other cases chiefs with 40 years of fire experience (and actually having extensive fire ground experience) who worked there way up thru the ranks (earning the rank) and now have 20+ years as a chief officer do not need to be told how they should do their job.

[JBJ1202 27]

If anyone clicked on the link instead of just reading the title... they would see that the kentland portion is only where i found the material. The link that i posted was the SOP of the Prince George County Fire Department. So for all the people who dont have the attention span to read through it.. let me give you a quick summary....

It covers standard responses based on incident type.. county wide.

Accountability of staffed apparatus... Career and volunteer alike

Requirement for training and equipment for all units throughout the county.

Westchester has none of the above...

As for Bnechis and chuckie cheese...

i am not saying that the county should have control over the department, but atleast have a say in who is on the road and what manpower and equipment they are carrying. Understanding this issue is something bigger than Purchase this.. or Rye not having that, or ridiculous comments like charlie has graced us with... look at the facts and dont except things because "thats they way it has been, are, and will be"...

Knowledge is Power

2414

Edited February 14, 2008 by JBJ1202

[Jared1979 19]

I think DMM8240 wanted information on the fire not a bashing discussion on mutual aid. It seems to me that there is too much bashing on here. Does anyone know how this fire started

[DES630 10]

The decision on who to call into their municipality, whether it be for coverage or to the scene should be made by those in charge, not the mother hen at 60 Control. I really don't think we need civilian dispatchers telling a Chief in charge of a fire, who and what he needs from a Communications Center miles away, not to mention having County Coordinators show up at a scene with their white helmets who stand around like they're in charge. Nothing personal, but I think the Chiefs of a Dept. are fully capable of this. Enough is Enough! All this can be taken care of also by Depts. who have their own dispatchers and don't rely on 60 Control. Those that don't, then that's another story. Fortunately, my Dept. has its own dispatching capabilities and I wouldn't change it for the world. In fact more Depts should strive for this. I'm sure there'd be less of a chance of Depts. stepping on each other during busy times. I've even heard of incidents where our own dispatchers didn't even know certain Depts. were in the city covering Stations, because the Coordinator at the scene was requesting and placing apparatus where he saw fit, without advising our Communications Center or the IC. Are you kidding me? Talk about accountability. I know everybody means well but sometimes they overstep their bounds. Maybe they should stay behind the yellow tape, like one coordinator was asked to do at one of our Jobs by the Deputy Chief in charge. Everybody shouldn't feel the need to be important and outrank others.

What is with the 60 Control Bashing?

[Guest]

I hear what your saying JBJ, I do agree that we could take steps to make things run more smoothly in Westchester. PG County has a great system for "them." Every type of call has a specific response and every piece of apparatus due on the call has a specific assignment from positions of every member on the apparatus, to truck placement, and instructions on what tasks are to be completed inside and outside the structure. This also varies depending on what type of structure is at risk. (For more info check out General Order 3-1) Since every company in PG has the same sop's, it is easier for departments to work with one another and takes away arguments about mutual aid, the closest apparatus shall be called. Why this works in PG is because houses are always staffed. Staffing is called in every morning and every night (not to mention whenever it changes throughout the day) so you know there is another crew waiting to get on the call. I believe something similar could work up here, and that would be having multiple departments responding on calls. This can help out departments who have trouble getting out during daytime hours. It would provide faster response times, more resources on scene right away and build better working relationships between departments. This way you don't waste precious time calling for mutual aid when they could be pulling up right behind your piece. The fire ground is very well organized down there. You arrive, get off the truck and do your job, no questions asked, no waiting around, knowing other companies are coming right behind you. I guess that is a benefit of all departments having one playbook.

[LTNRFD 266]

I think DMM8240 wanted information on the fire not a bashing discussion on mutual aid. It seems to me that there is too much bashing on here. Does anyone know how this fire started

Not official yet. Was burning for a VERY LONG time before the call for the F.D. was made.

[JBJ1202 27]

I hear what your saying JBJ, I do agree that we could take steps to make things run more smoothly in Westchester. PG County has a great system for "them." Every type of call has a specific response and every piece of apparatus due on the call has a specific assignment from positions of every member on the apparatus, to truck placement, and instructions on what tasks are to be completed inside and outside the structure. This also varies depending on what type of structure is at risk. (For more info check out General Order 3-1) Since every company in PG has the same sop's, it is easier for departments to work with one another and takes away arguments about mutual aid, the closest apparatus shall be called. Why this works in PG is because houses are always staffed. Staffing is called in every morning and every night (not to mention whenever it changes throughout the day) so you know there is another crew waiting to get on the call. I believe something similar could work up here, and that would be having multiple departments responding on calls. This can help out departments who have trouble getting out during daytime hours. It would provide faster response times, more resources on scene right away and build better working relationships between departments. This way you don't waste precious time calling for mutual aid when they could be pulling up right behind your piece. The fire ground is very well organized down there. You arrive, get off the truck and do your job, no questions asked, no waiting around, knowing other companies are coming right behind you. I guess that is a benefit of all departments having one playbook.

That is all i am trying to say... I am not saying what we are doing now isnt working, but I just see a more efficient way to do it.

Thank You

[efd184 59]

I also heard from a very relable source that on one of Mamaroneck's rigs were an off duty New Rochelle ff and 2 FDNY ff's. So you never know who is on a volly rig, do you.

First question Village or Town rig? If its the town Im going to put myself out there and say thats false. I would have to hear it from the source who claims they saw it and the guys he claims were there. As union members its frowned upon for a member to be a vol. in a department with career personnel. My big questions is why did you bring it up?

[abaduck 123]

Larchmont Gazette report: Gazette

[Remember585 815]

In defense of 60 Control...

All Mutual Aid is dispatched by one of the following means,

- Pre-determined "Greater Alarm" plans. (10-75, 2nd alarm, etc.)

- Request of an IC

- By following a Department's Mutual Aid Card.

- At requests from the Battalion Coordinator.

Nothing is dispatched from 60 Control without a request or by following an SOP.

Now, here's the catch.

If you are an IC and ask for, say, an Engine to your scene and an Engine to cover your HQ you will get one based on your department's Mutual Aid Card. If all the resources you have designated on that card are committed to their own, another Mutual Aid or your incident - then the Supervisor / Operators at 60 Control will fill your request with apparatus AS THEY SEE FIT. It could mean closest units or units from another area, usually depending on what else is going on in the County.

People always assume that when a Mutual Aid Coordinator (Battalion) shows up they are taking over a scene. WRONG. If the IC lets it happen that's a different story. A MAC (Battalion) is there to assist the IC in getting the stuff he or she needs. For example, if you are an IC and say to the Battalion "I need another FAST here," he has the option of asking for a specific one or calling 60 Control and asking for one, who will be dispatched based on that department's SOPs.

Has it occurred in the past (and maybe even recently) where a Battalion calls for something without the IC knowing? Probably. If it has, and if it does occur, then the IC or Chief of that Department should speak up and say something to that Coordinator. If that does nothing, then reach out to DES and I am sure they will address it.

As far as this specific incident, I know nothing about it at all and am keeping it that way. But I think WE ALL KNOW and CAN ALL AGREE that Mutual Aid in Westchester is touchy at best, and broken at worst. I'm in a Department that others would not call no matter what for various reasons - and you know what - as dumb as it is, it isn't worth stressing over. When the ca-ca finally hits the fan people forget about their personal differences and work together.

Sorry for the long-winded post.

[Remember585 815]

Larchmont Gazette report: Gazette

Reading the article reminded me of how much I hate it when those "Carbon Dioxide" detectors go off....