Was: Pelham FD Staffing? Now: Regionalization/Staffing and More

[capt2102 64]

Barry... clarify something for me. Eastchester FD has 14 firefighters min. per shift. To get 16 to a fire you need 2 more X 4 groups, about 10 more spots with time off. Where does the # 75 come from?

[lad12derff 283]

Barry states to meet the basic goal of 1710 including having 16 members on the first alarm. 1710 wants 3 ff's and 1 officer per rig for a basic 2000 sq ft 2 story house. The number goes up as do the hazards such as high rise or hospitals and such. Not really sure what Eastchester has for engines and trucks but if you put 4 on those I am sure that is where Barry got his number from.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Oneeye...Since you are not in the Fire Service, you would not understand. Im not looking to make this a fd vs pd thing but if you want, I can go there.

The attacks I speak about are budget cuts. Budget cuts that close companies, take away manning levels, take away monies needed for equipment and the hiring of new people. I guess you must live under a rock if you do not see what has been happening to civil service. The tests are being watered down and FD's are forced, yes forced to hire people less qualified. I guess being in law enforcement you are use to that. I know where I come from the pd caved in long before the FD did.The pd also gets much more fed money than the FD and has hijacked some of the FD's duties. Its a political game that is dangerous and boarders on the criminal.

I hope I answered all your questions and concerns.

My post was to members of the Fire Service, and my message was to show a united front.

First of all, I don't live under a rock. I am not in the Fire Service and I stated that. Are you saying that people in LE are not qualified to do their jobs? Nice dig.

You didn't really answer any of my questions. What duties have PD taken from FD? Sorry that you feel that the tests are being watered down. You should probably tell the people that do the hiring of your problems.

Being that I am not in the Fire Service you should write a post that would make me understand.

Being bitter does not mean that you can take it out on LE. Sorry you hate your job so much.

[JFLYNN 681]

What exactly is so hard to believe about this statement? That someone was a volunteer, went carreer, retired and reconnected with their volunteer company? Did you ask where he was a volunteer? Why should that matter? You seem to be letting you anti volunteer tendencies show through.

Nope, no anti volunteer tendencies here...in fact, I volunteer for lots of things in my community and church.

I do have a problem with hypocrisy and also with half-truths which I suspect are happening here. This individual stated that he has a home and family in New Rochelle and also stated that he is a volunteer firefighter. Since New Rochelle is a career department he would have to be volunteering somewhere outside of New Rochelle, or maybe he doesn't actually live in New Rochelle. I know that you don't necessarily have to be a resident of the community to be a member of the volunteer FD.However, if you connect the dots and follow this thread through from the beginning, I believe that most reaonable people would conclude that this individual is not being entirely forthcoming.

P.S. While I do not have a problem with volunteer firefighters, I do have a problem with hypocrisy. For instance, if you say you are a "volunteer"- don't ask for any benefits or compensation i.e. pensions, tax breaks, paid vacations, and many more. AND, if you say that you are as qualified as a career firefighter, live up to the same training standards, promotional testing process, medical standards, background checks, drug and alcohol screening, age limits, etc. etc. Also, guarantee a minimum set level of manpower that will be in the firehouse able to respond when an alarm comes in, regardless of whether it is day or night, weekend, holiday, or the alarm in question sounds exciting or not.

Of course, many of you will read this post and accuse me of being anti-volunteer, will twist my words, and will go way off topic. That's to be expected, certain people have a mindset and it won't be changed. The good news is that many of you are open minded and maybe haven't really thought of this issue in this way and this information may give you a different perspective.

Let the games begin....

[Guest]

Capt2102 ----Part of 1710 is the four guys on a rig, I believe Eastchester has four engines and two trucks plus a Command car --- with 14 men on duty you would have 12 men on rigs and two in the Command car----The figure would be 4x6=24 plus 2 or 26 men on per shift for 1710 now multiply the 26 x 5 (needed to cover 24/7/365) = 130 fire personnel on suppression --------I do not know how many men are on your job now, but this could give you an idea. 16 guys at a first alarm is only one part of 1710, the key is 4 on a rig.

[Guest]

NOTE to moderator: this is not, at least on my part a pd vs fd issue. I made a statement and was confronted by a rebuttle to my post which raised many questions to what I was saying. I answered those questions. If you re read the posts you will see it was him and not I that stated pd vs fd. . I have stated facts and was in no way starting anything. The truth is the truth.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry... clarify something for me. Eastchester FD has 14 firefighters min. per shift. To get 16 to a fire you need 2 more X 4 groups, about 10 more spots with time off. Where does the # 75 come from?

The 16 is in 8 minutes, additionally you need to pet the 1st engine on scene in 4 min. Because of eastchesters size you need all 6 or 7 companies staffed with 4 (24) plus 2102 (2) = 26 x 5.25 (4 shifts plus contractual time) = 137 plus staff, so thats an additional 62 plus staff for 6 companies & command or 83 for 7 and command.

These #s are off the top of my head, the actual numbers are detailed in the study, but thats the basis of how we came to them.

A simple way to look at it, If you have 75 men and are riding 2 per rig you need to double it to ride 4.

[Guest clipper]

The 16 is in 8 minutes, additionally you need to pet the 1st engine on scene in 4 min. Because of eastchesters size you need all 6 or 7 companies staffed with 4 (24) plus 2102 (2) = 26 x 5.25 (4 shifts plus contractual time) = 137 plus staff, so thats an additional 62 plus staff for 6 companies & command or 83 for 7 and command.

These #s are off the top of my head, the actual numbers are detailed in the study, but thats the basis of how we came to them.

A simple way to look at it, If you have 75 men and are riding 2 per rig you need to double it to ride 4.

as a being on the job in a combo dept which career far out numbers vollies in dutchess county we have constantly struggled with our dept with nfpa 1710 or 1720 as far as manning . what are the exact qualifications for 1720 and how does that apply to some of the depts mentioned here . aside from NewRo and Mt Vernon and Yonkers if a tought fight when this issue comes up along with a raise in taxes . at waht point does 1710 apply and not 1720

[ex-commish 490]

P.S. While I do not have a problem with volunteer firefighters, I do have a problem with hypocrisy. For instance, if you say you are a "volunteer"- don't ask for any benefits or compensation i.e. pensions, tax breaks, paid vacations, and many more. AND, if you say that you are as qualified as a career firefighter, live up to the same training standards, promotional testing process, medical standards, background checks, drug and alcohol screening, age limits, etc. etc. Also, guarantee a minimum set level of manpower that will be in the firehouse able to respond when an alarm comes in, regardless of whether it is day or night, weekend, holiday, or the alarm in question sounds exciting or not.

Of course, many of you will read this post and accuse me of being anti-volunteer, will twist my words, and will go way off topic. That's to be expected, certain people have a mindset and it won't be changed. The good news is that many of you are open minded and maybe haven't really thought of this issue in this way and this information may give you a different perspective.

Let the games begin....

Chief, what you say has merit and in most cases can not be disputed. As a volunteer I have stood for reform in training and have been an advocate for background checks. As a former instructor I have debated many times in class with students when the subject of training has come up. I wrote to OFPC a few year ago to see what it would take to allow volunteer departments to appoing MTO's providing those appointed met the state criteria for instructor. I felt that this would help volunteer departments to upgrade thier training programs.

As a former chief I argued many time with my own members when they questioned why so much training. I also sought to seek a uniformed standard for officers modeled off the FLIP school and do away with elections. Everything was a fight and I feel we stand in our own way with progression at times and may ultimately be the cause of our demise. And I know many of my colleagues share the same problems but we are in the minoirity.

What I will dispute is the age standard. I do believe in NY ( expect for NYC) there is no age limit to take the firefighter exam. Maybe there is a pension issue that I am not aware about but when I took the exam 4 years ago there was no age limit. I do not sense an anti-volunteer sentiment in your post. I have seen the anti-volunteer sentiment. It is usually ugly and without merit.

[lad12derff 283]

In 10 years my taxes have nearly doubled and I say enough. We need less government, more working together and its a shame none of the people see it.

The city of New Rochelle's budget for '08 is $147,000,000 for complete city services. The city of New Rochelle's school budget for 08/09 will be $222,335,393. There are about 77,000 people who live in New Rochelle and about 10,700 students in the city schools. The problem is not with the city tax it is with the school tax. This is a problem everywhere so please stop complaining about taxes when it is the schools out of control not the cities.

[JFLYNN 681]

Chief, what you say has merit and in most cases can not be disputed. As a volunteer I have stood for reform in training and have been an advocate for background checks. As a former instructor I have debated many times in class with students when the subject of training has come up. I wrote to OFPC a few year ago to see what it would take to allow volunteer departments to appoing MTO's providing those appointed met the state criteria for instructor. I felt that this would help volunteer departments to upgrade thier training programs.

As a former chief I argued many time with my own members when they questioned why so much training. I also sought to seek a uniformed standard for officers modeled off the FLIP school and do away with elections. Everything was a fight and I feel we stand in our own way with progression at times and may ultimately be the cause of our demise. And I know many of my colleagues share the same problems but we are in the minoirity.

What I will dispute is the age standard. I do believe in NY ( expect for NYC) there is no age limit to take the firefighter exam. Maybe there is a pension issue that I am not aware about but when I took the exam 4 years ago there was no age limit. I do not sense an anti-volunteer sentiment in your post. I have seen the anti-volunteer sentiment. It is usually ugly and without merit.

Thanks, I appreciate that. What I was referring to was a retirement age limit-NYS Police-Fire pension system has a mandatory retirement age.

Also, Yonkers now has a maximum age limit to take the test beginning with the upcoming June test- no older than 29 the day you take the test (but that is not what I was referring to).

[Bnechis 3,961]

as a being on the job in a combo dept which career far out numbers vollies in dutchess county we have constantly struggled with our dept with nfpa 1710 or 1720 as far as manning . what are the exact qualifications for 1720 and how does that apply to some of the depts mentioned here . aside from NewRo and Mt Vernon and Yonkers if a tought fight when this issue comes up along with a raise in taxes . at waht point does 1710 apply and not 1720

The dividing line for 1710 / 1720 is majority. If the majority of the dept is career then its 1710.

The real argument is: If a combo dept has 12 career and 25 vol it would be under 1720, but what if that same dept responds with 3 career on duty but the average turnout is 2.5 vol, then I believe its 1710, but I think that would be a fight in court to sort that out and NFPA has not clarified this issue.

In most of the combo depts in the study, they have more career than vol or the average career response is higher.

[Bnechis 3,961]

What I will dispute is the age standard. I do believe in NY ( expect for NYC) there is no age limit to take the firefighter exam. Maybe there is a pension issue that I am not aware about but when I took the exam 4 years ago there was no age limit. I do not sense an anti-volunteer sentiment in your post. I have seen the anti-volunteer sentiment. It is usually ugly and without merit.

Some career depts (FDNY & YFD) have maximum age for hiring (29 ?). Pension system says 62 is manditory retirement (with some exceptions for those already on the job). So if you are over 42 you will not recieve a full pension.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The city of New Rochelle's budget for '08 is $147,000,000 for complete city services. The city of New Rochelle's school budget for 08/09 will be $222,335,393. There are about 77,000 people who live in New Rochelle and about 10,700 students in the city schools. The problem is not with the city tax it is with the school tax. This is a problem everywhere so please stop complaining about taxes when it is the schools out of control not the cities.

20 years ago the school tax was 50% of the tax, now its over 60%. So while the City has been holding the line, the school has been running wide open.

And lets no forget to add the county tax.

[jayhalsey 6]

Nope, no anti volunteer tendencies here...in fact, I volunteer for lots of things in my community and church.

I do have a problem with hypocrisy and also with half-truths which I suspect are happening here. This individual stated that he has a home and family in New Rochelle and also stated that he is a volunteer firefighter. Since New Rochelle is a career department he would have to be volunteering somewhere outside of New Rochelle, or maybe he doesn't actually live in New Rochelle. I know that you don't necessarily have to be a resident of the community to be a member of the volunteer FD.However, if you connect the dots and follow this thread through from the beginning, I believe that most reaonable people would conclude that this individual is not being entirely forthcoming.

I understand where you are coming from. I personally don't see how you get to your conclusions from this thread. I read the same thread as you, and didnt think that the original poster, who I really have no idea who he actually is, was thrying to be sneaky or lying to us. I took what he said at face value. He was avolunteer. Then he got on the job, the he retired and h ereconnected with his volunteer department. I didnt ASSUME that since he lives in New Rochelle, he volunteers in New Rochelle. He never stated where he was a volunteer. He never actually stated, that I saw, in what capacity he volunteers. It was my understanding that his volunteer company was elsewhere, perhaps where he lived in his younger days.

P.S. While I do not have a problem with volunteer firefighters, I do have a problem with hypocrisy. For instance, if you say you are a "volunteer"- don't ask for any benefits or compensation i.e. pensions, tax breaks, paid vacations, and many more. AND, if you say that you are as qualified as a career firefighter, live up to the same training standards, promotional testing process, medical standards, background checks, drug and alcohol screening, age limits, etc. etc. Also, guarantee a minimum set level of manpower that will be in the firehouse able to respond when an alarm comes in, regardless of whether it is day or night, weekend, holiday, or the alarm in question sounds exciting or not.

I guess this depends on where one is a volunteer. I know that here, volunteers and career undergo the same physical each year, the same background check at pre employment, as well as the same drug and alcohol testing. Don't know of any age limit for career or volunteer, minimum for both is 18 I believe. Training wise, all volunteers with tags are trained to at minimum Fire 1 with most going on to Fire 2 and beyond. Continuous training again depends on the company. I know, in my department we train constantly.

[helicopper 1,050]

20 years ago the school tax was 50% of the tax, now its over 60%. So while the City has been holding the line, the school has been running wide open.

And lets no forget to add the county tax.

Had to take that County shot didn't ya?

[Danger 160]

Chief, what you say has merit and in most cases can not be disputed. As a volunteer I have stood for reform in training and have been an advocate for background checks. As a former instructor I have debated many times in class with students when the subject of training has come up. I wrote to OFPC a few year ago to see what it would take to allow volunteer departments to appoing MTO's providing those appointed met the state criteria for instructor. I felt that this would help volunteer departments to upgrade thier training programs.

As a former chief I argued many time with my own members when they questioned why so much training. I also sought to seek a uniformed standard for officers modeled off the FLIP school and do away with elections. Everything was a fight and I feel we stand in our own way with progression at times and may ultimately be the cause of our demise. And I know many of my colleagues share the same problems but we are in the minoirity.

I know it's off the minimum staffing topic at hand, but I like this post.

I'm in a combination department that has a lot more training than a lot of volunteer districts (or so I'm told.) Virtually every single volunteer member complains relentlessly about all the "unnecessary" training and how the only reason we have it is to "drive out volunteers." Obviously, it is in place to have well trained members. People complained about having to take Survival. What exactly about a class that teaches you how to survive doesn't strike you as important.

We happen to have in our MTO office a Captain and a Lt. who actually write OFPC classes. They overhauled the training requirements to be fresh and nonrepetitive and provide some choice and flexibility. People complained more than ever, you just can't win.

In the next breath, they demand to be held equal to Career members. To me, taking a 229 with 100 hr/yr after is a little different than FFI and maybe meeting your classes for the year. I support all the training and I take at least 100+ hours of extra state classes every year. Obviously my opinion on this isn't shared with the majority.

I also agree with you about promoting Lieutenants. All too often it's a popularity contest. I'd like to see more required officer training.

Edited March 13, 2008 by Danger

[Bnechis 3,961]

Had to take that County shot didn't ya?

Aviation Fuel $$$$$

[lad12derff 283]

20 years ago the school tax was 50% of the tax, now its over 60%. So while the City has been holding the line, the school has been running wide open.

And lets no forget to add the county tax.

Thanks Barry I could not remember the exact break down but that was my point. We are not the problem it's the schools.

[lad12derff 283]

Had to take that County shot didn't ya?

Someone has to pay for the aviation unit

[JFLYNN 681]

I understand where you are coming from. I personally don't see how you get to your conclusions from this thread. I read the same thread as you, and didnt think that the original poster, who I really have no idea who he actually is, was thrying to be sneaky or lying to us. I took what he said at face value. He was avolunteer. Then he got on the job, the he retired and h ereconnected with his volunteer department. I didnt ASSUME that since he lives in New Rochelle, he volunteers in New Rochelle. He never stated where he was a volunteer. He never actually stated, that I saw, in what capacity he volunteers. It was my understanding that his volunteer company was elsewhere, perhaps where he lived in his younger days.

I guess this depends on where one is a volunteer. I know that here, volunteers and career undergo the same physical each year, the same background check at pre employment, as well as the same drug and alcohol testing. Don't know of any age limit for career or volunteer, minimum for both is 18 I believe. Training wise, all volunteers with tags are trained to at minimum Fire 1 with most going on to Fire 2 and beyond. Continuous training again depends on the company. I know, in my department we train constantly.

FYI, New Rochelle is a fully career department so I was not assuming that he volunteers there. What I was asking is where does he volunteer since he says he lives in New Rochelle. That seems germane to this topic to me. He hasn't answered so I can only draw my own conclusions.

As to the portion of your reply pertaining to age limits, training, etc., thanks for helping me make my point.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

To all moderators: My intention was not to make this a PD versus FD issue. However, certain posts were written that described certain things that LE was doing to the FF service. I wanted a couple of answers to those questions. This is what I got.

Im not a big numbers guy.Im not up on nfpa,osha xyz etc etc, and to be honest, I could care less what they have to say. I have been in the Fire Service my whole life. i know how to put out fires. With that said...this seems to me like a whole bunch of in fighting.

Everyone must remember one thing...the Fire Service is and has been under attack for some time now. Departments all over the country are being forced to hire people that are unqualified just for the sake of diversity. These Departments are always the FIRST place city hall comes to for cuts. Most Departments do not have the proper manpower and some lack updated equipment.

Now, I would have thought that after 911, the Fire Service would be viewed upon as a necessary and appriciated part of any city, town or whatever. It seems that just the oppisite has happened.

While police departments end up with lots more federal money and with politicians feeding into them, they are growing. Alot of police departments have branched out into areas that the Fire Dept's use to be in charge of. This is duplication of service and very dangerous.

My opinion on why the FD's are cut first are that 1) they do not produce revenue 2) OUR DEDICATION kills us, they know we will do the job no matter what. If there are vollie outfits that run into the city in question, that would be another reason why the cities feel they can cut. Knowing full well that help is just a phone call away.

Mutual aid has always been around and it is based on the need of serving the people. Oh yeah, thats a big big part of what im talking about. Lets never forget that we are here to protect life and property at all costs.

I hope things work out for all you guys in these different dept's. I think it would be better for all to work together and show a united front for the sake of the Fire Service.

Oneeye...Since you are not in the Fire Service, you would not understand. Im not looking to make this a fd vs pd thing but if you want, I can go there.

The attacks I speak about are budget cuts. Budget cuts that close companies, take away manning levels, take away monies needed for equipment and the hiring of new people. I guess you must live under a rock if you do not see what has been happening to civil service. The tests are being watered down and FD's are forced, yes forced to hire people less qualified. I guess being in law enforcement you are use to that. I know where I come from the pd caved in long before the FD did.The pd also gets much more fed money than the FD and has hijacked some of the FD's duties. Its a political game that is dangerous and boarders on the criminal.

I hope I answered all your questions and concerns.

My post was to members of the Fire Service, and my message was to show a united front.

MODERATOR NOTE TO ALL: This WILL NOT become a PD vs FD rant or debate. Let's keep it professional and objective.

NOTE to moderator: this is not, at least on my part a pd vs fd issue. I made a statement and was confronted by a rebuttle to my post which raised many questions to what I was saying. I answered those questions. If you re read the posts you will see it was him and not I that stated pd vs fd. . I have stated facts and was in no way starting anything. The truth is the truth.

In case you are a little confused I thought I would help you out. For second time, how is the FD underappreciated after 9/11/01? For the Third time, how have PD's branched out into area's that FD's used to be in charge of?

In order for this to be a rebuttle you would have had to answer my questions first so I could REBUTT what you were saying. I just asked you a couple of questions. You did however state that I live under a rock and that LE has been hiring unqualified personell for sometime now. That's AWESOME

Being that I AM NOT in the Fire Service I was asking some questions that I don't know the answer too. It wasn't to start a war, it was to try and understand what you guys were talking about.

And I thought I was bitter at work.

[jloftus 28]

Man you guys are deep, if anything is true about this issue is the passion it causes, only we understand what this post means, we all wnat ot do our jobs, go home. I hope this discussion causes those that can make a difference, do something. All have put info out that we can use to make our jobs and safely serve the people we serve. Thats what this topic is all about.

PS

The PD is not an issue here.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Nope, no anti volunteer tendencies here...in fact, I volunteer for lots of things in my community and church.

I do have a problem with hypocrisy and also with half-truths which I suspect are happening here. This individual stated that he has a home and family in New Rochelle and also stated that he is a volunteer firefighter. Since New Rochelle is a career department he would have to be volunteering somewhere outside of New Rochelle, or maybe he doesn't actually live in New Rochelle. I know that you don't necessarily have to be a resident of the community to be a member of the volunteer FD.However, if you connect the dots and follow this thread through from the beginning, I believe that most reaonable people would conclude that this individual is not being entirely forthcoming.

P.S. While I do not have a problem with volunteer firefighters, I do have a problem with hypocrisy. For instance, if you say you are a "volunteer"- don't ask for any benefits or compensation i.e. pensions, tax breaks, paid vacations, and many more. AND, if you say that you are as qualified as a career firefighter, live up to the same training standards, promotional testing process, medical standards, background checks, drug and alcohol screening, age limits, etc. etc. Also, guarantee a minimum set level of manpower that will be in the firehouse able to respond when an alarm comes in, regardless of whether it is day or night, weekend, holiday, or the alarm in question sounds exciting or not.

Of course, many of you will read this post and accuse me of being anti-volunteer, will twist my words, and will go way off topic. That's to be expected, certain people have a mindset and it won't be changed. The good news is that many of you are open minded and maybe haven't really thought of this issue in this way and this information may give you a different perspective.

Let the games begin....

How is that hypocrisy that Volunteers get some benefits? Sounds like you dont like this idea because it is helping retain the Volunteers and keep the Voulunteer system alive and well in many many places.

[lad12derff 283]

How is that hypocrisy that Volunteers get some benefits? Sounds like you dont like this idea because it is helping retain the Volunteers and keep the Voulunteer system alive and well in many many places.

Volunteers are suposed to do it for free that's why. I would love to volunteer at the local soup kitchen if they would only pay me for my time.

[ladder55 26]

it looks more like a paid vs vollie issue.

[Bnechis 3,961]

How is that hypocrisy that Volunteers get some benefits? Sounds like you dont like this idea because it is helping retain the Volunteers and keep the Voulunteer system alive and well in many many places.

Is it really helping to retain the volunteers?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Volunteers are suposed to do it for free that's why. I would love to volunteer at the local soup kitchen if they would only pay me for my time.

Hey look at all the free soup you can get!

I started way before any of these things happened, LOSAP, tax breaks ect....and I will still be around if they dissapeared tomorrow. It is what it is the Unions hate this stuff because it helps the Volunteer system...at least where Im from. But thats jmo. Be safe.

[Guest]

Hey look at all the free soup you can get!

I started way before any of these things happened, LOSAP, tax breaks ect....and I will still be around if they dissapeared tomorrow. It is what it is the Unions hate this stuff because it helps the Volunteer system...at least where Im from. But thats jmo. Be safe.

I have been a volunteer for 15 years. I do it because I love to do it. I dont expect anything out of it from anyone. I enjoy helping my community and my family. I belong to a combo dept, and when I first started years and years ago, I was caught up n the bashing of "paid and volly". Since I have grown up and made a family, I think it is silly the way we "bash" fellow fireman be it paid or volunteer. I respect everyone for what they do. However there are bad apples in paid and volly. I am an interior ff and have trained as such. I have trained along side of carreer fireman and volunteers. We are all here to do the same job. What people need to realize is that the times are changing from 30-40 years ago when the average household both parents have to work and there is no time to volunteer. We need more carreer stafff no matter where you go, but we also need the volunteers. I dont think this topic was a paid or volly thing, it was a topic between 2 carreer depts and should have been left that way.

[Guest]

To all moderators: My intention was not to make this a PD versus FD issue. However, certain posts were written that described certain things that LE was doing to the FF service. I wanted a couple of answers to those questions. This is what I got.

In case you are a little confused I thought I would help you out. For second time, how is the FD underappreciated after 9/11/01? For the Third time, how have PD's branched out into area's that FD's used to be in charge of?

In order for this to be a rebuttle you would have had to answer my questions first so I could REBUTT what you were saying. I just asked you a couple of questions. You did however state that I live under a rock and that LE has been hiring unqualified personell for sometime now. That's AWESOME

Being that I AM NOT in the Fire Service I was asking some questions that I don't know the answer too. It wasn't to start a war, it was to try and understand what you guys were talking about.

And I thought I was bitter at work.

1eye...I did answer your questions. Many Fire Depts , after 911, faced many deep budget cuts. If thats not being underappricated, I dont know what is. There is federral money being thrown around left and right, yet cities are cutting their Fire Depts to the bone. As for the pd or as you call it le, there is no secret that they get alot more federal money than the FD's. As for pd or le branching out, that only seems to be in the nyc area. One area where there is lots of federal money to be had is haz mat. The pd or le in nyc took that away from the fd and its all about the bucks.

As for the lowering of standards in civil service, damn man, pick up a paper once in a while and read whats going on.

So...hopefully that will answer your questions and Im sure I will get a few more PM's from the moderators, but I can clearly see that you asked for this.

I really think you mis read me , I have nothing but deep love, respect and pride in being a Fireman. I dont have a clue what could make you think I didnt.