Mount Vernon-Chemical Plant Fire w/ Evacuations 3-28-08 (Incident Discussion Thread)

[ny10570 745]

All this talk about foam operations, but isn't synthetic High Expansion foam the only product that isn't broken down by acids? The preferred foam for hydrocarbons is going to be a protein foam, which I can't imagine is capable of standing up to acid exposure.

[M' Ave 1,466]

When FDNY shows up at a fire scene they bring 3 engines 2 trucks and the BC. At most fires they have been called to for help they request a 2nd which brings more units. They talk to the command board and tell them what FDNY is going to do. The whole idea is that they have the resposibility for their men not some other dept. This is not a dig against FDNY they don't need any mutual aid except for the attacks on AMERICA Sept 11, 2001. Ask any BC who has gone to YONKERS,Pelham Manor,or Mount Vernon they will tell you your SOPs for mutual aid.

I wasn't assuming it was a dig, more a curiousity on my part. Thanks.

[Bnechis 3,961]

IMO, if you don't have the manpower to fight the fire AND set up decon, you should call for more M/A.

They did call M/A for it.

Every HAZMAT instructor I've ever had has told me Decon should be taken care of before any personnel are exposed to contaminants, and if thats not possible, set it up at the same time.

Agreed. But in most of the hazmat scenarios your arriving at a leak, spill or evena fire that is confined to the container. This was a building fire that contained HM. The hazards would increase if the fire got beyond the original building into other commercial wharehouses and local residential properties.

Also, all members were advised to stay up hill and upwind to avoid contamination. And emergency decon was available...its called a handline. There would have been no containment, but there were 1,000's of gals/min of running down the road away from the scene.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Whether the chemicals were combustible/flammable or not, their still being heated and giving off coorrosive vapors. Why not apply a foam blanket to them?

Because it was corrosive, it would eat the foam in seconds and do nothing to improve the scene. Just flushing $$$ down the drain.

As far as the $$$ is concerned with foam supply, FDMV should ask the Oil Cos. to pick up some of the cost, whose storage facilities they're protecting 24/7/365. I'm sure they'd have no problem doing it. In fact yrs. ago, I think they even offered to purchase a Foam Unit for FDMV if I'm not mistaken.

Why would the oil co's pay for foam to use on this incident?

Its different for them to fund foam to protect themselves, but thats AR-AFFF not CORFoam.

Yes you protect them, but why should they have to give you foam? Dont they pay taxes that intitle them to protection?

I'm sure they did offer to buy foam in the past.

But NR had to threaten legal action against them to pay for the clean-up of thier tanker that spilled on main st. and they are required by federal law to pay that bill. They did thier best to get out of it.

As far as the type and quantity of hazmat materials involved, was that known immediately while enroute, or some time after arrival. I know the Cops were asking their dispatchers to find a emergency contact phone # to find out what exactly was stored in the bldg. about 10-15 minutes into the operation.

I don't know. Whose responsability is it to find know this info?

The ops officer had a list before the owner arrived. I dont know where he got it from.

I don't know about MVPD, but most PD's dont get the info. All FD's are suppose to get 209u forms from every biz. What the dept does with it is another issue.

[Bnechis 3,961]

All this talk about foam operations, but isn't synthetic High Expansion foam the only product that isn't broken down by acids? The preferred foam for hydrocarbons is going to be a protein foam, which I can't imagine is capable of standing up to acid exposure.

The prefered foam for hydrocarbons is AFFF and if it has any ethonol in it (E15 or E85) it better be AR-AFFF or it will be eaten up in seconds.

[hudson144 150]

One of the mutual aid fires that sticks in my mind was Lincoln ave/mt vernon ave,after I came down off the ladder I was advised that I missed something that was pretty funny, the day crew was sent home as the night crew showed up. This is all when YFD had 2 or 3 engines working, 1-2 truck cos working, a batt chief and MSU. No they didn't take over the fire they worked along with us. NRFD had a truck and an engine there as well as other mutual aid. After the word got out that the day shift was released the mutual aid basically said what the hell are we doing here,working their butts off,spending OT to protect the area vacated by the companys that were out of town,well they did the right thing-picked up and went home! Rightly so! Whats the answer here? Even with this long discussion with the fulton ave fire.Many fires are the topic of the day in MV, we are a 1 or 2 room dept. When you can no longer save yourself because you are exhausted you should not be in service. We have all done it! Work till ya drop, thats not the answer. Someday maybe the answer will available. Last year we recieved mutual aid i think 38 times, if thats not abusing the system then what is? Its like the same old story over and over again. Lets see what happens since we as firefighters got the new mayor his job!

[ny10570 745]

The prefered foam for hydrocarbons is AFFF and if it has any ethonol in it (E15 or E85) it better be AR-AFFF or it will be eaten up in seconds.

Now that ethanol is the major additive in all gasoline shouldn't everyone be making or have all ready made the switch to Alcohol Resistant.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Now that ethanol is the major additive in all gasoline shouldn't everyone be making or have all ready made the switch to Alcohol Resistant.

I know that my job has gone from a protien based to an alchohol resistant. However, would 10% ethanol in gasoline be enough to render an protien based foam ineffective?

[Bnechis 3,961]

I know that my job has gone from a protien based to an alchohol resistant. However, would 10% ethanol in gasoline be enough to render an protien based foam ineffective?

This is a Fact sheet I put together for my dept. It is based on two different seminars. And I had 2 Foam Experts confirm the math, which I have trouble believing is correct based on the totals, but they said its right.

ETHANOL - Major new hazard

Ethanol fuel spill or fire is a new concern for the fire service. Ethanol can be found in its pure state or mixed with gasoline and both can be found in transportation. Ethanol is also called Ethyl Alcohol or Moonshine.

Ethanol is mixed with gasoline. E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, while E10 is 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline. E10 is commonly found in cars. Ethanol is now the #1 rail transported product, with 350,000 annual railcars, usually rail cars carry pure ethanol. MC306 Tanker trucks generally care either E85 or E10 with approximately 8,400 tanker trips annually. Which is about 10% of the total tanker trips.

Ethanol is a polar solvent which means it mixes with water. Gasoline is a non-polar solvent, when gasoline and ethanol are mixed they create a unique series of problems for the fire service.

If it is burning the only effective extinguishing agent is Alcohol Resistant AFFF (AR-AFFF) which is the only foam that works. Never MIX Different brands of AR AFFF, they will eat one another. Additionally, foam if not gently applied will sink in ethanol and it will not come back to the surface, so it must be banked off a wall or dropped onto the street in front of it and eased into it. The other concern is how much foam is needed, which is dramatically more than with other flammables. The 1% / 3% (Hydrocarbons / Polar Solvents) AR-AFFF that we have is considered the most appropriate for Ethanol and should be set at 3%.

15 gallons from a car tank that has spilled on the ground and ignited will require approximately 10-16 gpm of foam concentrate for a minimum of 15 minutes, which is 150 to 230 gallons of concentrate or 30 to 46 foam buckets. If an M306 gasoline tanker were to spill its entire load the requirements would be approximately 80,000 – 128,000 gallons of concentrate or 16,000 to 25,600 foam buckets. I do not believe that much concentrate exists in the entire region. Airport Crash Trucks are not an option, they do not carry Alcohol Resistant Foam. The Federal Response Teams (EPA & USCG) have yet to formulate a plan. If the fire occurs in a loading dock (none in New Rochelle) the flow rate needs to be doubled. If the spill is contained in a diked area, the application time doubles, but the amount of foam needed maybe less based on total square footage.

Best bet is protect exposures with master streams and try to prevent it from getting into storm drains.

If it has spilled, with no fire, it needs to be contained, which includes using foam for vapor suppression and vacuumed up by a licensed clean-up company. Absorbents (speedy-dry, pads, socks, etc.) will absorb the gasoline but not the ethanol, leaving 100% ethanol.

[LTNRFD 266]

This is a Fact sheet I put together for my dept. It is based on two different seminars. And I had 2 Foam Experts confirm the math, which I have trouble believing is correct based on the totals, but they said its right.

ETHANOL - Major new hazard

Ethanol fuel spill or fire is a new concern for the fire service. Ethanol can be found in its pure state or mixed with gasoline and both can be found in transportation. Ethanol is also called Ethyl Alcohol or Moonshine.

Ethanol is mixed with gasoline. E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, while E10 is 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline. E10 is commonly found in cars. Ethanol is now the #1 rail transported product, with 350,000 annual railcars, usually rail cars carry pure ethanol. MC306 Tanker trucks generally care either E85 or E10 with approximately 8,400 tanker trips annually. Which is about 10% of the total tanker trips.

Ethanol is a polar solvent which means it mixes with water. Gasoline is a non-polar solvent, when gasoline and ethanol are mixed they create a unique series of problems for the fire service.

If it is burning the only effective extinguishing agent is Alcohol Resistant AFFF (AR-AFFF) which is the only foam that works. Never MIX Different brands of AR AFFF, they will eat one another. Additionally, foam if not gently applied will sink in ethanol and it will not come back to the surface, so it must be banked off a wall or dropped onto the street in front of it and eased into it. The other concern is how much foam is needed, which is dramatically more than with other flammables. The 1% / 3% (Hydrocarbons / Polar Solvents) AR-AFFF that we have is considered the most appropriate for Ethanol and should be set at 3%.

15 gallons from a car tank that has spilled on the ground and ignited will require approximately 10-16 gpm of foam concentrate for a minimum of 15 minutes, which is 150 to 230 gallons of concentrate or 30 to 46 foam buckets. If an M306 gasoline tanker were to spill its entire load the requirements would be approximately 80,000 – 128,000 gallons of concentrate or 16,000 to 25,600 foam buckets. I do not believe that much concentrate exists in the entire region. Airport Crash Trucks are not an option, they do not carry Alcohol Resistant Foam. The Federal Response Teams (EPA & USCG) have yet to formulate a plan. If the fire occurs in a loading dock (none in New Rochelle) the flow rate needs to be doubled. If the spill is contained in a diked area, the application time doubles, but the amount of foam needed maybe less based on total square footage.

Best bet is protect exposures with master streams and try to prevent it from getting into storm drains.

If it has spilled, with no fire, it needs to be contained, which includes using foam for vapor suppression and vacuumed up by a licensed clean-up company. Absorbents (speedy-dry, pads, socks, etc.) will absorb the gasoline but not the ethanol, leaving 100% ethanol.

Barry, Great bit of info. Hope this has informed and enlightened the guys in the field.

Now I know why you live at the TOP of the hill.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry, Great bit of info. Hope this has informed and enlightened the guys in the field.

Now I know why you live at the TOP of the hill.

Thanks. Nope I live at the top of a hill because I grew up in a neighborhood that floods..............but you already know that..........

[fyrlt17 13]

Barry ,

Check out this article from Industrial fire world (http://www.fireworld.com/ifw_articles/daves_notes0308.php)

Ethanol mandate moves forward

AR-AFFF provides best defense in ethanol fueled fires

Volume 23, No.2

By DAVID WHITE

Conservative blogger Rebecca Hagelin, quoted in the Wall Street Journal, states that the escalating use of ethanol “certainly didn’t come about because of a groundswell of popular demand.”

It came about, she said, because of a government mandate.

Firefighters are used to being on the wrong end of such majestic mandates. Remember Halon? Under the guise of environmental responsibility, ethanol is being wholeheartedly supported with government subsidies. Little is left for emergency responders to do but learn to live with it.

Even at its worst, ethanol is not an unstable demon. It’s just another flammable liquid. For decades firefighters have safely handled gasoline, which is far worse than ethanol in terms of explosive potential. The biggest thing to recognize about ethanol is that it is a polar solvent, meaning chiefly that it does not mix with water. Ethanol can not be diluted with water like gasoline.

Ethanol requires a special kind of foam and specialized technique. Dealing with it means specific training. And since ethanol is already in more than 50 percent of the automobiles in America today, getting that training is mandatory now! This is not something that can wait for the next budget cycle. It should not be filed by priority behind getting a new refrigerator for the command vehicle or repainting the pumper.

Firefighters need to worry about ethanol long before it gets into our gas tanks. For the most part, ethanol is processed from corn. That means ethanol plants throughout the midwest. But ethanol can also be made from sugar cane and switch grass. Ethanol production has the potential to become a coast-to-coast operation.

Ethanol comes out of processing plants 95 percent pure. The only reason it is not 100 percent pure is that to keep people from turning it into a new source of moonshine, the government mandates (there is that word again) that ethanol be denatured by adding five percent gasoline. It may not be drinkable, but it is still flammable.

Some of the ethanol is loaded into tank trucks and some of it goes into rail tankers for transport. None of it goes into pipelines. Tank trucks and rail tankers have been known to have accidents. For example, last May in Baltimore a tanker rig overturned and burst into flames on a curving interstate ramp, killing the driver and sending a burning stream of ethanol into the street below, igniting a row of parked cars.

From the massive bulk facilities, the ethanol is transferred to local gasoline terminals. Tankers are loaded with gasoline and topped off with ten percent ethanol, the most common formulation. No matter how slight the ethanol content, it remains flammable, and despite the best attempts of firefighters, it cannot be diluted..

The only way to challenge a polar solvent fire is with the right type of foam. A recent series of tests by the Ethanol Emergency Response Coalition shows that the only foam effective against ethanol is alcohol-resistant AFFF. Straight AFFF or fluoroprotein does not work. It does not make any different if the ethanol is 95 percent, 85 percent or only ten percent.

AR-AFFF, readily available to industrial fire brigades, still remains relatively unknown in municipal fire fighting. Even the foams that municipal fire trucks do carry are in severely limited amounts compared to what it takes to deal with an industrial emergency. Industrial firefighters need to work with their municipal cousins to prepare for what may eventually happen.

It is not unusual to encounter 100 tanker cars of ethanol in a single freight train. Imagine 100 ethanol tank cars sitting six tracks wide at an unloading facility when a fire breaks out. Some of these facilities have good fire protection -- fixed foam systems, monitors and sprinklers. Others do not. When one of these facilities goes up, municipal responders do not want to be in the position of forging an instant alliance from scratch with industrial brigades.

Ethanol is going to make mutual aid a reality nationwide, because industrial responders are the only ones readily equipped to deal with such emergencies. Municipal fire departments are not likely to afford sufficent stockpiles of AR-AFFF any time in the near future.

Fire is one thing. Spills are another. There are no recommendations from the feds yet on how to deal with ethanol spills. Absorbent pads used on hydrocarbon spills are ineffective when used on ethanol. The pads treat ethanol the same as water, leaving it behind when the pad is recovered.

Emergency services in the U.S. are going to have to step up to the plate on ethanol. Either we are going to get the foam and get the training or we are going to continue to let events send us scrambling for solutions.

[ny10570 745]

firelt17, there are two glaring errors in that article. Gasoline cannot be diluted with water. Ethanol is extremely water soluble. Ethanol is so miscible in water that 50mL of water and 50mL of Ethanol results in about 95mL of total volume.

If I remember correctly from way back in college ethanol is capable of sustaining a flame as low as a 50% mix with water. In a mixture of less than 50% ethanol, there is still a flammability risk as the ethanol is highly volatile and the vapor is extremely flammable. Ethanol is also a problem in that is capable of dissolving polar and non polar solutes. So if you name it ethanol is probably capable of dissolving it to some extent.

Based on those errors I'm not to sure about gasoline being used to denature most bulk ethanol stocks. First, distillation beyond 95% is impossible without the use of additives or melting point distillation. The majority of Absolute Alcohol (99%+ Alcohol) is made using Benzene to remove the remaining water. This makes it toxic to human consumption, but shouldn't pose a significant risk for decon or firefighting as it is in such small concentrations, and nearly as flamable and volatile as ethanol.

Edited April 1, 2008 by ny10570

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

In repards to spills, what are some of the concerns faced if ethanol is released and runs into the sewer or a waterway. It is an organic compound that can occur naturally in nature, why so much concern about environmental exposure?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry , Check out this article from Industrial fire world (http://www.fireworld.com/ifw_articles/daves_notes0308.php)

Volume 23, No.2 By DAVID WHITE

He was one of the seminar presenters.

[ny10570 745]

Anything in large enough concentrations is toxic. For example, oxygen to divers and water to fraternity pledges. The same applies to a large Ethanol dump into the environment. The other problem is the contaminants that Ethanol is able to dissolve into solution. As far as I know, at this point there isn't an effective way treat ethanol other than containment and removal. Not like hydrocarbons where you have booms and pads to help stop the spread if it reaches a waterway.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In repards to spills, what are some of the concerns faced if ethanol is released and runs into the sewer or a waterway. It is an organic compound that can occur naturally in nature, why so much concern about environmental exposure?

In a sewer it can come up in every building (via an open trap) in a community, then ignite when it finds an ignition source, like a pilot light on a water heater. There are a number of cases where other flammable liquids (usually gasoline) have done this and the FD has arrived to find a dozzen or more fully involved structure fires.

It may occur in nature but how often do you find 8,000 gals (MC306 tanker)

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Oh ok that makes a lot of sense.......thanks

[fyrlt17 13]

firelt17, there are two glaring errors in that article. Gasoline cannot be diluted with water. Ethanol is extremely water soluble. Ethanol is so miscible in water that 50mL of water and 50mL of Ethanol results in about 95mL of total volume.

If I remember correctly from way back in college ethanol is capable of sustaining a flame as low as a 50% mix with water. In a mixture of less than 50% ethanol, there is still a flammability risk as the ethanol is highly volatile and the vapor is extremely flammable. Ethanol is also a problem in that is capable of dissolving polar and non polar solutes. So if you name it ethanol is probably capable of dissolving it to some extent.

Based on those errors I'm not to sure about gasoline being used to denature most bulk ethanol stocks. First, distillation beyond 95% is impossible without the use of additives or melting point distillation. The majority of Absolute Alcohol (99%+ Alcohol) is made using Benzene to remove the remaining water. This makes it toxic to human consumption, but shouldn't pose a significant risk for decon or firefighting as it is in such small concentrations, and nearly as flamable and volatile as ethanol.

Just some facts about ethanol

What is ethanol?

Ethanol is also known as ethyl alcohol or grain alcohol. Like gasoline, ethanol contains hydrogen and

carbon, but ethanol also contains oxygen in its chemical structure. The addition of oxygen makes for a

cleaner burning fuel than gasoline.

What is an ethanol/gasoline fuel blend?

In the United States ethanol is primarily produced from corn. Ethanol is denatured at the ethanol plant to

prevent ingestion. The denaturing agent most often used is some type of hydrocarbon such as gasoline.

Denatured ethanol may contain 2-15 percent gasoline, making it an ethanol and gasoline fuel blend. For

example, E85 contains 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. Other blends may include E10, which

contains 10 percent ethanol and 90 percent gasoline, and E15, which contains 15 percent ethanol and 85

percent gasoline. Spills and fires involving ethanol and gasoline blends should be treated differently than

traditional gasoline spills/fires.

Properties of Ethanol and Ethanol/Gasoline Fuel Mixtures

Property Comment

Vapor density Ethanol vapor, like gasoline vapor, is denser than air and tends to settle in low areas.

However, ethanol vapor disperses rapidly.

Solubility in water Fuel ethanol will mix with water, but at high enough concentrations of water, the

ethanol will separate from the gasoline.

Flame visibility An ethanol/gasoline fuel blend flame is less bright than a gasoline flame but is visible

in daylight.

Specific gravity Pure ethanol and ethanol/gasoline blends are heavier than gasoline.

Conductivity Ethanol and ethanol blends conduct electricity. Gasoline, by contrast, is an electrical

insulator.

Toxicity

Ethanol is less toxic than gasoline or methanol. Carcinogenic compounds are not

present in pure ethanol; however, because gasoline is used in the blend, E85 is

considered potentially carcinogenic.

Flammability

Flashpoint for gasoline=-45° F, Flashpoint for pure ethanol= 55° F,

Flashpoint for E85= -20 to -4° F,

Considerations: pure ethanol (UEL=19 percent, LEL=3.3 percent) and E85 (UEL=19

percent, LEL=1.4 percent) have a wider range of flammability than gasoline (UEL=7.7

percent LEL=1.4 percent). Gasoline also has a lower flash point