Mount Vernon-Chemical Plant Fire w/ Evacuations 3-28-08 (Incident Discussion Thread)

[x635 4,066]

This would have been the perfect incident for the Foam/ARFF truck sitting rusting away behind Station 2. If only the sole mechanic of MVFD had a budget! I hope that it finds a good home if MVFD has no plans for it, and that it doesn't end up at Brookfield or a truck parts place.

Also, here's what the State Of Connecticut has issued for mass decon. There's absolutely no reason in my eyes why NYS or Westchester can't afford to do the same. The Squad equipment is complicated, bulky, manpower-intensive, and timely to deploy, and then to clean and pack up, whereas a mass decon trailer as pictured below would do the job faster and more efficiently, especially in colder weather.

Here's the inflatable tent Squad 6 currently uses for Decon

All photos taken and property of me.

[61MACKBR1 222]

I hope that someone doesn't lock this topic up as it should be openly discussed. Look at the resources below that were within 4 miles of the incident:

Edited March 29, 2008 by x635
Photos Removed: Violation Of Photo Posting Policy

[CPAGE 2]

YFD not responding unless we call the shots? Never. At a fire scene I think we've always worked professionally with the hosts.

It was meant to say you will not stand by in a fire house nor will FDNY my bad with the way it came out.

CP

[hudson144 150]

LTNRFD- Good point but, "Whats a Pre-Plan"!!!

[61MACKBR1 222]

Again (and final) to my previous point, why hasn't anyone come on this thread and come out with some reasonable explanaton to why WCDES/Hartsdale was called and not Yonkers. This is what I (and I believe others members of emtbravo.net) have been saying for years. Something is definately wrong with the system and something needs to be done now. To why no one within both the WCDES Administration, as well as the Leaders of Fire Services in such cities as Mount Vernon, Yonkers, New Rochelle, etc, has provided not specifically the membership of EMTBravo, but to all taxpayers in Westchester County with an explanation and solution is puzzling to me. I can only speculate that policitical posturing, egotisical positioning and Union Bias are behind this. But this, again, is only my opinion. Let's hear from the people who have the answers, such as Chief Gasparre, Chief Pitocco, Commissioner Kiernan, Chief Everett, Mr. Fitzpatrick and others.

[FirNaTine 370]

LTNRFD- Good point but, "Whats a Pre-Plan"!!!

If the truth was only known! I think it's more like shoot from the hip decission making. Was there a CIDS for this premise?

[Bnechis 3,961]

YFD not responding unless we call the shots? Never. At a fire scene I think we've always worked professionally with the hosts.

Agreed.

[Bnechis 3,961]

This would have been the perfect incident for the Foam/ARFF truck sitting rusting away behind Station 2.

Why would it be the perfect incident? I saw no downed aircraft and no foam was used or needed. This was a building fire with chemical stored in it. And most were not flammables.

Also, here's what the State Of Connecticut has issued for mass decon. There's absolutely no reason in my eyes why NYS or Westchester can't afford to do the same. The Squad equipment is complicated, bulky, manpower-intensive, and timely to deploy, and then to clean and pack up, whereas a mass decon trailer as pictured below would do the job faster and more efficiently, especially in colder weather. Here's the inflatable tent Squad 6 currently uses for Decon

That was my point. We shuld have those trailers. What the squads and MDU's have work, but take time and manpower to set up.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Again (and final) to my previous point, why hasn't anyone come on this thread and come out with some reasonable explanaton to why WCDES/Hartsdale was called and not Yonkers.

I do not know why WCDES was called instead of YFD, but why is everyone so concerned about it. Maybe one reason is this was not going to be a go in and stop the leak, but a long term monitoring of contamination and clean-up, particularly beyond the fire building. DOH & DEC were there and a figure will continue for a long time. Just because YFD has more toys does not mean they are the best choise for everything. YFD has concentrated its Hazmat efforts to be able to determine product and deal with it. The squads have concentrated more on Decon and backing up YFD.

This is what I (and I believe others members of emtbravo.net) have been saying for years. Something is definately wrong with the system and something needs to be done now. To why no one within both the WCDES Administration, as well as the Leaders of Fire Services in such cities as Mount Vernon, Yonkers, New Rochelle, etc, has provided not specifically the membership of EMTBravo, but to all taxpayers in Westchester County with an explanation and solution is puzzling to me. I can only speculate that policitical posturing, egotisical positioning and Union Bias are behind this. But this, again, is only my opinion. Let's hear from the people who have the answers, such as Chief Gasparre, Chief Pitocco, Commissioner Kiernan, Chief Everett, Mr. Fitzpatrick and others.

As long as people hide behind screen names and routinly attack these people, they will never and should not have to be held accountable to EMTBrovo.

The politics of home rule. Commissioner Kiernan, Chief Everett, and CHIEF Fitzpatrick do not need to answer to the people of Westchester, just to either the citizens of the city they protect or the City Officials. I think its rather improper for some people on EMTBravo to insist that they answer to this forum.

The career chiefs have been working on a solution. That will improve the fire service that protects 10 communities. 2 additional City's felt that they are not in a position or that this was not needed to improve the services in thier districts. This plan together with those 2 City's (who are assisting in the study and have agreed to continue to work with us) protect 55% of the population of Westchester.

The remaining 45% of the county is protected by 46 VFD's (some are combo) and the question that you left out is what are they doing? WCDES does not have the legal right to do certain things because of "Home rule" but these depts. can ask DES for assistance and can do more to solve problems.

[Bnechis 3,961]

If the truth was only known! I think it's more like shoot from the hip decission making. Was there a CIDS for this premise?

I don't know if there was a CIDS. But the CP had a list of the chemicals and the Ops officer said he knew what was in this building from more than 1 inspection. Also the ER was advised of what was involved. (and it turns out they knew of what was there before being advised from the scene).

Also, MVFD dispatch advised the IC and MA very early on that the building contained many HM. And to stay upwind/uphill.

[ajsbear 11]

LTNRFD- Good point but, "Whats a Pre-Plan"!!!

Knowing if you want mustard and what to drink!

[M' Ave 1,466]

Actually it is FDNY that will take over your fire scene not Yonkers.

Elaborate.

[lad12derff 283]

Elaborate.

When FDNY shows up at a fire scene they bring 3 engines 2 trucks and the BC. At most fires they have been called to for help they request a 2nd which brings more units. They talk to the command board and tell them what FDNY is going to do. The whole idea is that they have the resposibility for their men not some other dept. This is not a dig against FDNY they don't need any mutual aid except for the attacks on AMERICA Sept 11, 2001. Ask any BC who has gone to YONKERS,Pelham Manor,or Mount Vernon they will tell you your SOPs for mutual aid.

[x635 4,066]

Why would it be the perfect incident? I saw no downed aircraft and no foam was used or needed. This was a building fire with chemical stored in it. And most were not flammables.

(This is in regards to the Crash Truck MVFD aqquired (or a member of MVFD aqquired for MVFD) that I mentioned in a previous post that's rotting away behind Sta 2)

Given the photos and footage I saw in regards to a defensive operation, a rapid and copious amount of foam I feel (my opinion only) could have put a large dent into this fire, perhaps shortening the duration and runoff, and keeping members away from many potential hazards. Given the foam truck was equipped with Class A and B foam- and actually working.

For instance, look at this "Special Call" FDNY made for a tanker fire near an airport

http://www.onthejobny.com/gallery/The-Latest/tnkerqueens/

Also, a "Snozzle" or Ferrara Strong Arm (http://www.ferrarafire.com/apparatus/strong_arm/index.html) could have helped at this fire.

Not saying "shoulda", but just naming some equipment that may have been helpful at this fire, that we don't really have around here.

[LT410 5]

I found this on LOHUD after yesterdays fire in fdmv

Station 2 which is one block away, lost a ladder company and foam company both shutdown, not needed,opps, until tonite, 2 companys which could have had a positive impact, the rescue and engine company still housed there arrived with 3 firefighters and 1 officer. Yes minutes later, other companies arrived, minutes count in this job but is only important when its needed. At least that has been the thinking with all in charge.Oil companys around this area and no Foam truck, God Help.

And yes the beautiful new rescue 1 is housed there but is wasting away since the police took over the rescues calls over the years so now it is basically a bus to get guys to a job, all of that new equipment wasting away. What a shame. Before we start criticizing FDMV here lets have respect for all the brothers who work there who work thier buts off and take pride in what they do

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Im curious about the air quality monitoring. I know that the Wetchester County Health Department is/was monitoring the air quality but I really do not understand why more was not done to mitigate the risks to the public and first responders due to the risks possed by the chemicals stored and I presume brought into the air by the fire and explosion. Some of the chemicals that were stored at this plant are so toxic that if a spill occured we would have a MAJOR Haz-Mat incident. Just because the chemicals were in the air does not make them any less dangerous, they only become less concentrated. Also, it is going to be important to monitor the respiratory functions and the general health of everyone in the vicinitity of this incident. If we harken back to the days of 9/11, the men and women at ground zero were told the air was safe to breath, however, a few years later it is established that the air was filled with toxic compounds like arsonic, asbestose, benzine and cyilica. All chemicals that have given about half of the first responders now have resperatory issues. Could there be any repeat of that situation at this particular incident?

[x635 4,066]

A few interesting and coincdental comments posted on LoHud.com, I agree that FDMV should be given all the credit in the world....HOWEVER, we've got to remember that they are there 24/7/365, and not just when big fires bring big attention.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Given the photos and footage I saw in regards to a defensive operation, a rapid and copious amount of foam I feel (my opinion only) could have put a large dent into this fire, perhaps shortening the duration and runoff, and keeping members away from many potential hazards. Given the foam truck was equipped with Class A and B foam- and actually working.

At least 5,000 gpm was flowing for a couple of hours, adding another 1-2,000 of foam would not change it. Also the foam costs $$$ and while the company can get billed, its money out of pocket for MVFD.

For instance, look at this "Special Call" FDNY made for a tanker fire near an airport

A tanker on open road is different than a building, particularly one that has collapsed

Also, a "Snozzle" or Ferrara Strong Arm (http://www.ferrarafire.com/apparatus/strong_arm/index.html) could have helped at this fire.

What would a snozzle do that the TL & ladder pipes were not already doing?

A strong arm would have to come MA from China or Turkey. To operate this unit at this incident would have placed the members in direct contact with the Hazmat. and would also have spread more chemicals.

Not that anyone has a Snozzle or a Strong Arm.

Seth, I know you and others love to see different trucks in operation (who doesn't), But this was not the fire for them. I do not believe any dept. would have handled this fire any differently even, if it had unlimitted resources.

[Truck4 48]

From this afternoon. Looked like the owner called a private HazMat clean-up crew and began tearing down the 2nd floor exterior.

[x635 4,066]

Seth, I know you and others love to see different trucks in operation (who doesn't), But this was not the fire for them. I do not believe any dept. would have handled this fire any differently even, if it had unlimitted resources.

I wasn't there, so I don't know- I'm aware, just tossing out some points for discussion. There is equipment on the market today that allows the use of less manpower with a greater effect on remotely extinguishing a fire.

Having just seen a demo of a Snozzle being used in conjunction with Class A foam, to swiftly knock down a simulated industrial fire without , does make me believe that there are a whole bunch of new technologies out there that departments SHOULD take into consideration when purchasing new apparatus that's going to be used in an industrial area. I do agree with the point of the cost of the foam, but I also wonder the cost of the foam that gets dumped out because it expires or used for training? Also, Chicago has a high-expansion foam unit that's been used for similar types of fires.

Regardless, the FIREFIGHTERS AND LINE OFFICERS of MVFD did an excellent job last night. I just think that we should take something from every incident, especially when the need arises to purchase or maintain costly equipment that rarely gets used.

It would, however, be great if MVFD did a critique or presentation about this fire, the hazards encountered, and how they were addressed so that we can all learn something from this incident, and take it home to be better prepared.

[EMTbravo 312]

hudson44's post regarding MVFD Foam 1 split from this thread into a new topic:

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=24628

To allow for more specific discussion relating to MVFD Foam 1.

Edited March 29, 2008 by EMTbravo
SPLIT TOPIC NOTICE

[Remember585 815]

To claarify, these are the units on scene or relocated.

On Scene:

FDMV On Duty units

NRFD 2301, E22, L12

WCDES 2001, HM1, Bat14, Bat15, Squad 6 (with Fairview FFs, Greenville FFs w/ R29 & Hartsdale FFs w/ E171), FC1

WC OEM

WC DOH

NYS DEC

MVPD

Empress EMS

Con Ed Emergency Management

Relocated to FDMV Station 3:

NRFD E22 & L12 (before they even got toned out they were sent to the scene)

Pelham E5

Greenville E151

Eastchester TL17 & 2103

Fairview, Greenville & Hartsdale implemented "Signal 9's."

A tip of the hat to those on scene who did a great job containing this fire, and to the Mount Vernon Fire Dispatch center!

Edited March 29, 2008 by Remember585

[ex-commish 490]

No one was hurt especially firefighters...they did a good job....nuff said.

[Guest paramedico987]

On a serious note, the IA says that decon was set up at 2215 - what about everyone working there from 2000??

I will delete my question if the responses turn into that insidious animal we're all sick of, but just out of curiosity - why not call FDNY or Yonkers for a job like this?

Besides the FD rundown, what was the EMS response? Did any of the mass decon units get deployed for potential use? Was there any PD mutual aid?

Please note, I am asking because this incident had the potential to be far worse - not because I'm criticizing the FDMV!

I agree wholeheartedly about the decon thing... it seemed to be an afterthought at this scene. There were a whole bunch of people that waited around until the wee hours of the night for a decon setup. This seems to me to be a BIG oversight, and I hope that we can all use this as a learning experiance. Additionally it pointed out quite clearly why we need to make sure that those CBRN kits from the sate are in all of the response vehicle out there, cuz you just never know when you'll need them.

EMS Response: I was first EMS on scene, and quickly applied the "rule of thumb."

We had 1 ALS ambulance, 1 BLS ambulance, and the Flycar supervisor on scene. However, we did have additional resources available to respond as needed.

I didn't see any PD M/A, but it wouldn't surprise me if they recalled some manpower. The area of the incident, due to geography, is pretty easily isolated by blocking the scene on just the north and south sides, and fortunately the heavy traffic area was upwind and uphill.

FDMV did a good job. The scene was properly assesed and resources were requested. They did well watching their exposures and most importanly everybody kept themselves safe.

As more and more resources arrived from the county and eventually state level, the scene became quite complicated. I still don't know where the ICP was... there were 2 mobile command trucks and at least 2 tabletop command stations present. It was a bit of a cluster...

[Guest paramedico987]

This would have been the perfect incident for the Foam/ARFF truck sitting rusting away behind Station 2. If only the sole mechanic of MVFD had a budget! I hope that it finds a good home if MVFD has no plans for it, and that it doesn't end up at Brookfield or a truck parts place.

All photos taken and property of me.

Good point seth!

While we'll likely never have a full acurate list of what was in this place, I know that there was POTASSIUM present. Foam would've been usefull I'd think.

[JBE 328]

Amazing the things I miss out on when I'm not around. I was wondering where this fire was, and if FDNY got called in on M/A. Looks like a pretty nasty job. As far as M/A from the city, if you've got the resources to mitigate closer, why wait for a resource that's gonna be 30 plus minutes away(the nearest mass decon trailer from 37 Engine, and God knows how long it would take for Haz Mat to get up there)???

If you don't think you need it, you don't have to call for it.

Seth, I understand your enthusiasm with new innovations such as the Strong Arm. But, is it really feasible for departments to find practical every day applications for those rigs?? Especially with budgets being what they are. It's nice to dream, though. Believe me, I can't count how many times I've wanted to see things done that could help departments, but it's just not feasible.

[gpeifer 89]

Give it to Yonkers. I am sure we will find a use for it instead of rusting away.

This would have been the perfect incident for the Foam/ARFF truck sitting rusting away behind Station 2. If only the sole mechanic of MVFD had a budget! I hope that it finds a good home if MVFD has no plans for it, and that it doesn't end up at Brookfield or a truck parts place.

Also, here's what the State Of Connecticut has issued for mass decon. There's absolutely no reason in my eyes why NYS or Westchester can't afford to do the same. The Squad equipment is complicated, bulky, manpower-intensive, and timely to deploy, and then to clean and pack up, whereas a mass decon trailer as pictured below would do the job faster and more efficiently, especially in colder weather.

Here's the inflatable tent Squad 6 currently uses for Decon

All photos taken and property of me.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I agree wholeheartedly about the decon thing... it seemed to be an afterthought at this scene. There were a whole bunch of people that waited around until the wee hours of the night for a decon setup. This seems to me to be a BIG oversight, and I hope that we can all use this as a learning experiance.

The fire came 1st. Particularly since no-one was in need of immediate decon. The set-up time is what it takes when you use a tent based system.

As more and more resources arrived from the county and eventually state level, the scene became quite complicated. I still don't know where the ICP was... there were 2 mobile command trucks and at least 2 tabletop command stations present. It was a bit of a cluster...

ICP was infront of the fire (where it usually is) where the 2 tabletops were.

It would have been less of a cluster, if it was a single dept.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

IMO, if you don't have the manpower to fight the fire AND set up decon, you should call for more M/A. Every HAZMAT instructor I've ever had has told me Decon should be taken care of before any personnel are exposed to contaminants, and if thats not possible, set it up at the same time.

[FirNaTine 370]

Whether the chemicals were combustible/flammable or not, their still being heated and giving off coorrosive vapors. Why not apply a foam blanket to them? As far as the $$$ is concerned with foam supply, FDMV should ask the Oil Cos. to pick up some of the cost, whose storage facilities they're protecting 24/7/365. I'm sure they'd have no problem doing it. In fact yrs. ago, I think they even offered to purchase a Foam Unit for FDMV if I'm not mistaken. As far as the type and quantity of hazmat materials involved, was that known immediately while enroute, or some time after arrival. I know the Cops were asking their dispatchers to find a emergency contact phone # to find out what exactly was stored in the bldg. about 10-15 minutes into the operation.