Fire chiefs on Minnewaska: 'We could have ended it'

[Monty 35]

Here's an interesting story from the Times Herald Record Online, actually they have some good links to the fire.

ACCORD — Local fire chiefs say the Minnewaska State Park fire would have been out the day it started if state officials had not yanked volunteer firefighters off the mountain.

"The two teams could see each other, and they yanked us out," said Paul Rider, Accord Fire Department's assistant district chief. "Immediately after they pulled us off, the fire was out of control," Rider said.

The chiefs said fire has hit the Overlook spot four times in the past two years. In those instances, rangers and park staff worked with the volunteers. "There was no problem," said Kevin Mutz, chief of the Kerhonkson Fire Department.

Sounds like some good after-incident reviews to be done this time .....

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Should be interesting to see how this pans out. If what the Chief's are saying is true, the state has some explainin' to do...

[JetPhoto 626]

So much for UNIFIED command!

[50-65 205]

Should be interesting to see how this pans out. If what the Chief's are saying is true, the state has some explainin' to do...

According to the Office of Rumor Control, since it had been some 50 years since that much of the area had been burned, DEC had been looking at doing a burn off there. When they (DEC) showed up on scene, they ordered the chief to pull his guys out, questioning their accountability system (or lack thereof). By the time DEC let them back in, it had gotten out of control. Maybe not entirely by accident.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

That can't be possible. DEC could not be that stupid. What you're saying would be a reckless disregard for the safety and health of firefighters and the general public, if the fire had spread more than it did.

[MoFire390 118]

That can't be possible. DEC could not be that stupid. What you're saying would be a reckless disregard for the safety and health of firefighters and the general public, if the fire had spread more than it did.

couldn't agree with you more.

[ex-commish 490]

That can't be possible. DEC could not be that stupid. What you're saying would be a reckless disregard for the safety and health of firefighters and the general public, if the fire had spread more than it did.

We are talking about a government agency....anything is possible.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I find it interesting that the reason cited for pulling the volunteers was a lack of accountability on the part of the volunteers. The State would have been much worse off had they allowed them to remain and someone was lost or killed. Here's a scenario:

State guy, "Chief how many men do you have up there and what are their assignments?"

Volunteer Chief, "Well I'm not completely sure who's up there but I think I have two crews, maybe a third."

State Guy, "Get all your people down and lets start from scratch with some accountability."

I'd agree with the State if it went down anything like this. I'm many states away, and know nothing about this incident, but I have to say that given the way firefighters die at wildland fires, accountability is paramount.

[helicopper 1,050]

So much for UNIFIED command!

I don't think this was a failure of unified command. I think this was a failure to USE incident command. Had accountability been established and readily apparent there would have been no cause to pull people off the line. If a Safety Officer was operating and appropriate PPE was being used by all, that would not have been a reason to pull people off the line.

If accountability was in question and appropriate PPE was not in use, wouldn't it be the right thing to do to pull everyone off the line to fix those problems? Don't we always preach safety first?

It's sad that this got so bad that the players started using the media to present their issues rather than working it out face to face.

[firemoose827 324]

I find it interesting that the reason cited for pulling the volunteers was a lack of accountability on the part of the volunteers. The State would have been much worse off had they allowed them to remain and someone was lost or killed. Here's a scenario:

State guy, "Chief how many men do you have up there and what are their assignments?"

Volunteer Chief, "Well I'm not completely sure who's up there but I think I have two crews, maybe a third."

State Guy, "Get all your people down and lets start from scratch with some accountability."

I'd agree with the State if it went down anything like this. I'm many states away, and know nothing about this incident, but I have to say that given the way firefighters die at wildland fires, accountability is paramount.

I don't think this was a failure of unified command. I think this was a failure to USE incident command. Had accountability been established and readily apparent there would have been no cause to pull people off the line. If a Safety Officer was operating and appropriate PPE was being used by all, that would not have been a reason to pull people off the line.

If accountability was in question and appropriate PPE was not in use, wouldn't it be the right thing to do to pull everyone off the line to fix those problems? Don't we always preach safety first?

It's sad that this got so bad that the players started using the media to present their issues rather than working it out face to face.

Good Points by both of you. I agree, the IC system is there for a reason and should be used at all incidents effectively. Accountability, unfortunately, is looked upon by many to be an inconvenience and too much work to keep track of all the tags and crews. But sadly, if done right realy isnt that hard. I agree that the accountability should have been implemented on scene instead of taking the crews out completely.

And it is a shame they needed to involve the media. Sadly, a lot of people feel they will help the situation by bringing it to the community and getting their input...But thats what community meetings are for.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Good point Chris..not to mention intermunicipality or interagency agreements PRIOR to an event occurring also speak volumes in having an understanding and establishing communications.

I'm not one to respond with emotion..but with fact, understanding and most importantly tact. There are 2 sides to this story and perhaps they were planning a burn off, which for some reason some of you have an issue with. They do it out west all the time and occassionally (unfortunately) they do go beyond what is expected or what the crews who perform such tasks want them to do. Look at it this way..the area that is burned off...won't be burning for a number of years after this. How is pulling firefighters out a disregard for firefighter safety? And for the public even in that matter? Isn't having a burn off in its own way a tool to protect the public's property? And the firefighters from future events? We don't know what the full extent of DEC's thinking was...and we do not know how efficient or if there even is an accountability system to speak of on the FD side that the DEC stated was one of the reasons they requested they be pulled out. We are not always the right ones, the world doesn't revolve around the fire service and that all that we do is the correct answer and in the name of good. Whether we like it or not. Now if I could just get a few of my PD buddies to admit that also...(lol sorry I had to throw that in there)

[helicopper 1,050]

Good point Chris..not to mention intermunicipality or interagency agreements PRIOR to an event occurring also speak volumes in having an understanding and establishing communications.

I'm not one to respond with emotion..but with fact, understanding and most importantly tact. There are 2 sides to this story and perhaps they were planning a burn off, which for some reason some of you have an issue with. They do it out west all the time and occassionally (unfortunately) they do go beyond what is expected or what the crews who perform such tasks want them to do. Look at it this way..the area that is burned off...won't be burning for a number of years after this. How is pulling firefighters out a disregard for firefighter safety? And for the public even in that matter? Isn't having a burn off in its own way a tool to protect the public's property? And the firefighters from future events? We don't know what the full extent of DEC's thinking was...and we do not know how efficient or if there even is an accountability system to speak of on the FD side that the DEC stated was one of the reasons they requested they be pulled out. We are not always the right ones, the world doesn't revolve around the fire service and that all that we do is the correct answer and in the name of good. Whether we like it or not. Now if I could just get a few of my PD buddies to admit that also...(lol sorry I had to throw that in there)

The world doesn't revolve around us? Come on, of course it does!

Seriously though, you're absolutely right!

[Goose 188]

Things were running pretty well when i was up there Saturday as far as accountability. Everyone checked in and checked out, records were kept and consistently updated. The ulster county mobile command truck was up there as well coordinating communications.

The sentiment that the topic starter quotes was flying around the staging area a bit. I heard a few people commenting on it. But, my understanding was that they were ending operations at dusk. Is that really a bad idea? I mean, the terrain is fairly rugged and forest fires are not exactly commonplace in this area. This isn't California and we aren't dealing with seasoned wildfire firefighters who fight this stuff all year around. From a sheer safety standpoint it seems like the right choice was made.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Good question and points Goose! I don't think there are too many people floating around the Hudson Valley with a red card certification.

[GoDucks23 6]

Man, once again Westchester guys critisizing everyone else once again! Why doesnt everyone just wait and see how this plays out before we bash either side. Maybe both have valid points that need to be addressed so that this doesnt happen again. Lets just wait and see what happens and say good job to all involved in keeping this incident from spreading to homes or worse people getting injured!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

1. I'm not from Westchester.

2. If you read my post, I said that IF what the ULSTER COUNTY Chiefs are saying is true, then DEC has serious explaining to do. If the fire was almost under control and the state came in and changed that, then there is certainly an issue to be addressed.

[50-65 205]

Like I said, "According to the Office of Rumor Control...."

I agree that if there was an accountability problem, then that needed to be addressed. Trees will grow back.

As far as a government agency not being that stupid...? Well, what can I say? I've been in the military and worked for both local and state government agencies. There are countless examples of government stupidity.

As for those of you who believe you can trust the government to do the right thing, sure you can, just ask any Indian. (Native American for you PC type).

[helicopper 1,050]

Man, once again Westchester guys critisizing everyone else once again! Why doesnt everyone just wait and see how this plays out before we bash either side. Maybe both have valid points that need to be addressed so that this doesnt happen again. Lets just wait and see what happens and say good job to all involved in keeping this incident from spreading to homes or worse people getting injured!

I don't think anyone criticized anyone about anything - on either side of the argument. Several comments were made and responded to, not critical or inflammatory at all. Quite the contrary, actually. I think everyone knows that there are three (or more) sides to every story only one of them being the truth.

I stand by my comment that it is a shame that it is being discussed in the media instead of by agency heads behind closed doors but that's politics.

What any of this has to do with Westchester specifically is beyond me!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Why doesnt everyone just wait and see how this plays out before we bash either side. Maybe both have valid points that need to be addressed so that this doesnt happen again.

What's really sad is the fact that any conversation that goes on is automatically viewed by some as "bashing." I never saw any bashing of either side, just discussion based on what was posted originally. Maybe someday we'll get pass the "bashing" and "monday morning quarterback" labels that too many in the fire service still throw around.

[ex-commish 490]

Man, once again Westchester guys critisizing everyone else once again! Why doesnt everyone just wait and see how this plays out before we bash either side. Maybe both have valid points that need to be addressed so that this doesnt happen again. Lets just wait and see what happens and say good job to all involved in keeping this incident from spreading to homes or worse people getting injured!

First, yes it seems it was a good job knowing several people who were up there. Second, I have yet to read any bashing from us "Westchester Guys" ...just objectionable points being presented which is why this forum exists.