Change In Mount Vernon Incoming Mutual Aid Units (Unconfirmed)

[Mac8146 61]

As A Proud Member of FDNY for over 25 years please define overstaffed Firepunk. I dont know where you work or with whom you are affiliated but how can make such a statement. I personally am not offended I am angered by a remark such as this, you obviously have never had to stretch 15 lengths of hose up 6 stories and operate, or force multiple doors on a fire floor. We are fighting to keep a time tested manpower number and you say overstaffed. Back it up or shut up..................

[firepunk 3]

As A Proud Member of FDNY for over 25 years please define overstaffed Firepunk. I dont know where you work or with whom you are affiliated but how can make such a statement. I personally am not offended I am angered by a remark such as this, you obviously have never had to stretch 15 lengths of hose up 6 stories and operate, or force multiple doors on a fire floor. We are fighting to keep a time tested manpower number and you say overstaffed. Back it up or shut up..................

AS I STATED, I AM SORRY AND I AM TAKING BACK WHAT I SAID. IT WAS A STATEMENT MADE OUT OF FRUSTRASTION. I SEE SOME FD ROLE WITH 2 GUYS, 1 GUY ON A RIG INCLUDING FDMV. AGAIN SORRY FOR PISSING GUYS OFF. AND YES I HAVE CARRRIED AND STRETCHED LINES IN 6 STORY OMFDS

[JFLYNN 681]

I did not mean to anger anyone in the words that I said. I am for more manning without a dought. I never said that Yonkers is overstaffed. I stated that FDNY is. I am sorry and did not mean to offend anyone.

Apology accepted...it takes a man to just admit he made a mistake and is sorry and not make any excuses...

[efd1674 5]

Heard ladder 16 from Eastchester was first due into the city as of last nite.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Appropriate staffing would be at least 1 officer and 3 ff ideal would be 4 ff and 1 officer per rig

So NFPA 1710 and the ICMA (International City/County Managers) standards that say if you have high risk or high life hazards and calls for 4ff/1O on engines and 5ff/1o on trucks must be wrong. Also ISO credits the additional firefighters.

ICMA considers 4/1 to be 100% effective and 3/1 to be undermanned.

high risk includes factories, scgools, hospitals, nursing homes, high rise, etc.

[Bnechis 3,961]

So, the question that I have for those who are more knowlegable that I (and possibly others members of EMTBravo.net) concerning this issue, is:

a) How much authority does 60 Control have over the allocation and assignment of Mutual Aid Assistance.

Does the "Fire District" within the Southern Westchester Area (Battalion 18) that is responsibility of Battalion Chief Walter Ferguson, have (or should have) total control over the management of Mutual Aid for the area and departments that he is reponsible for? (along with 60 Control) as it relates to the assignment all Mutual Aid from departments within its area, rather than Mount Vernon requesting it "directly" from another department?

NYS has run under the legal principal of "home rule" since the late 1700's. That means each local government gets to do what it believes is in its best interest (even if is not), and the county and the state have no say in it.

Fire Coordinators ("battalions") are legally charged with "coordinating" mutual aid and do not have the legal authority to do anything beyond what the home rule agency wants, unless the local community is willing to sign away its legal rights and responsabilities (and most wont).

[helicopper 1,050]

So NFPA 1710 and the ICMA (International City/County Managers) standards that say if you have high risk or high life hazards and calls for 4ff/1O on engines and 5ff/1o on trucks must be wrong. Also ISO credits the additional firefighters.

ICMA considers 4/1 to be 100% effective and 3/1 to be undermanned.

high risk includes factories, schools, hospitals, nursing homes, high rise, etc.

Barry,

Thanks for the info. What would be the impact on a municipalities ISO rating if they had no ladder company and inadequate staffing on their remaining apparatus?

Do you have any links directly to the ICMA standards or ISO criteria for staffing?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Thanks for the info. What would be the impact on a municipalities ISO rating if they had no ladder company and inadequate staffing on their remaining apparatus?

Chris, ISO requires a ladder to cover 2.5 road miles out from its station. thats about 4.5 sq miles (the size of the city of MV) larger cities require more trucks. For up to 7 trucks in service they require 1 spare (so 1 truck or 7 requires 1 spare, 8 trucks requires 2).

You get points for apparatus and for personnel. Without doing the math, its hard to say exactly what would happen, but I suspect they would drop about 1 PPC class, which would increase property insurance 8% for about 15 years (unless corrected).

Do you have any links directly to the ICMA standards or ISO criteria for staffing?

The ICMA will sell you the info, only if you are a member. ICMA's is not a "standard" but a text book: "Fire Service Managment" that is written for city managers to understand what FD's need.

http://www.isomitigation.com is the link but there is almost no info on it about ISO's manpower criteria, just that you get points for every member on-duty and 0.3 points for on-call members who actually respond to each call (average).

The maximum points you can get is 15+ (thats out of a total rating of 100. The reason for the plus, is they will give you greater points, if you can show they can be utilized and do not exceed the number that a rig can support, i.e. if you claim that 20 ff's respond with a single engine, they will only count about 6-8).

Its very involved....lol (but it comes with big $$$)

Edited November 20, 2008 by Bnechis

[stixx 7]

NEW ROCHELLE moved down to THE number 2 positiobn

Mount Vernon should get better fire truck :angry:

[firecapt32 282]

Maybe its time for Battalion 18 to weigh in here--the coordinator is just that- they respond into the assigned area when mutual aid is requested from the County. They do not make policy or strategy /tactics. They seek out the IC and keep them informed of where the mutual aid is located and what is available to them from the County. They are a direct line to Control.They are they to help the IC as needed not to make policy or tactical decisions. The control of the fire and all that goes with it belongs to the Incident Commander and the Local Fire Department.

[61MACKBR1 222]

So, if we read the post about the Fire in Mount Vernon yesterday, an Eastchester ladder gets called in (16 or 17) to assist with the fire and a Fairview Ladder (along with an "Unknown" Engine Company) gets called in all the way from near White Plains to help cover the city. What is the response time from Fairview to Mount Vernon? What if another fire is reported just at the time that Mutual Aid is requested from Fairview via 60 Control.

Someone is going to get seriously hurt and major property damage is likely if someone doesn't step up to the plate (are you politicians listing?) and does something about the situation within the Mount Vernon FD and the Mutual Aid plan for Mount Vernon. (What's next for Mount Vernon if Eastchester and Fairview decide they have had enough (like what New Rochelle and Yonkers have done)? Maybe mutual aid will come from Peekskill or some department in the northern end of Westchester County.

To Fire Professionals and Non Fire Professionals (like myself) the situation appears to make no sense at all.

[DaRock98 76]

I have a question(a little off topic but I don't see the need to start a whole new thread about it) and its only a question not meant to start an argument or get people pissed but from what I understand Fairview staffs the ladder with only a driver when that ladder is called for m/a do the pull ffs off there engine crews to staff the ladder? and if so do they call back more ffs to staff the rigs they were pulled from?

[mikerabbit 2]

Does this mean that the taxpayers of the Fairview Fire District have to pay for My. Vernons shortcommings?

[x635 4,066]

Does this mean that the taxpayers of the Fairview Fire District have to pay for My. Vernons shortcommings?

Yes. New Rochelle, Eastchester, Greenville, and Fairview residents end up footing the bill for most major fires in Mount Vernon. Not only do they pay financially, but they lose resources out of their community, possibly endangering that community, it's residents, and property. Mutual aid is there for "the big one" or unusual circumstances, not for your everyday "bread and butter" fire.

The only good thing is if these units go to the scene, it's good experience, especially for newer firefighters who may not see fire for years in their first due. This is one of the reasons I support regionalization, but I'm not going to get into that now.

[61MACKBR1 222]

Seth - Excellent Points - Well Said - Yes, I would agree that the experience that members of the Fairview FD would get, would certainly be very valuable. However, as I mentioned in my previous post, the response time from Greenburgh/Fairview to Mount Vernon is one that I would certainly question. I, too, agree with you also Seth on Regionalization. It wouldn't surprise me that the Politicans, thinking that it might be an better, more cost efficient measure, seriously looks into Regionalization. But the Unions would never allow it. But, I don't want to open up that can of worms again.

[huzzie59 75]

Google map directions from Fairview to South Fulton Ave.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=...307617&z=12

[LT410 5]

Even when mutual aid shows up to Mount Vernon all they do is overhaul unless the fire has spread to multiple structures or a big apt. building or factory then they will go to work. For all of you armchair quarterbacks all you are doing is disrespecting the brothers in Mount Vernon. No doubt the City treats us like s*** but we have and are some of the best firefighters in the state. We are not the only ones that are understaffed, have bad rigs and the other problems that go along with it including mutual aid. Corrupt politicians and bad leadership is what creates these problems all of this BS on here isn't doing anything but disrespecting the firefighters of Mount Vernon both black and white who take pride in what they do..

Edited November 25, 2008 by LT410

[JFLYNN 681]

Even when mutual aid shows up to Mount Vernon all they do is overhaul unless the fire has spread to multiple structures or a big apt. building or factory then they will go to work. For all of you armchair quarterbacks all you are doing is disrespecting the brothers in Mount Vernon. No doubt the City treats us like s*** but we have and are some of the best firefighters in the state. We are not the only ones that are understaffed, have bad rigs and the other problems that go along with it including mutual aid. Corrupt politicians and bad leadership is what creates these problems all of this BS on here isn't doing anything but disrespecting the firefighters of Mount Vernon both black and white who take pride in what they do..

Brother,

I reread this thread and I didn't see where anyone has disrespected Mount Vernon Firefighters. Please explain why you think you have been disrespected. Maybe I missed something.

I don't agree with everything that has been posted in this thread but I do think it is obvious that the level of understaffing and mutual aid abuse, as well as the poor quality of apparatus in Mt. Vernon rises to an unprecedented level in Westchester County, and probably even in the tri- State area. Most of us who have noticed these problems and comment on them are truly concerned for the safety and well being of Mt. Vernon Firefighters, as well as anyone who might have to respond in there on mutual aid. If I were you, I would be happy that others are taking notice of your deplorable working conditions and are commenting on it.

Hang in there and stay safe!

[huzzie59 75]

I cannot remember anytime I read something on this site that ever bashed Mount Vernon Firefighters and how they perform their jobs. Quit the contrary! My feeling is most of us have a great admiration for Mount Vernon firefighters!