Ambulance conducting a traffic stop?

[mfkap 0]

Here is an article about an ambulance in Nevada, saw something wrong and conducted a traffic stop.

http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A...NEWS18/81202016

What are the rules/regulations about that up in NY? I assume that the logic was that the person could have been in danger. Anyone here outside of Greenburgh conducted a traffic stop in an ambulance (or fire engine I guess?). I assume it is illegal?

[weaselff 6]

Here is an article about an ambulance in Nevada, saw something wrong and conducted a traffic stop.

http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A...NEWS18/81202016

What are the rules/regulations about that up in NY? I assume that the logic was that the person could have been in danger. Anyone here outside of Greenburgh conducted a traffic stop in an ambulance (or fire engine I guess?). I assume it is illegal?

I'm guessing the ambulance crew flagged her down to see if she was ok, considering she was driving down the road with a fuel nozzle hanging out of her vehicle. I dont know what the protocol is in Nevada or elsewhere but in NYC intoxicated people or people suspected of being under the influence can not RMA. They probably talked her into some kind of patient contact long enough for PD to arrive. I say good job to EMS for getting a dangerous driver off the road.

[markmets415 524]

I have a better one for you, several years ago while at work one of our officers was out on a run with our Fire Engine, which was on old 68 Ford/Ward Lafrance Gas job that smoked liked crazy. He was passed by a vehicle on a double yellow line and our officer threw on the emergency lights and pulled the guy over and then issued him a UTT for passing in a no passing zone. The guy plead not guilty but in court the judge found him guilty as charged.

I work at a NYS facility and we provide emergency services to the campus so we are crossed trained in police/fire and EMS and are NYS Peace Officer. Ther offender was like you can't ticket me, here's your ticket and have a nice day.

Edited December 3, 2008 by markmets415

[abaduck 123]

I'm going to be a bit of a nay-sayer here. Yes, this one ended well and they got a dangerous driver off the road. Kudos to them. But think about the issues: quite apart from the legal issues - performing a 'stop' you likely (??) have no lawful authority to perform, you never know what the hell you're getting into in a situation like that. Unless you're cross-trained like markmets, leave the stops to the guys and girls with the guns, the training, the experience, and the undoubted legal authority.

That's my 2c anyway.

Mike

[EJS1810 7]

I hate to start a post this way but, "When I was Chief" I was on my way home one night and came upon a couple having a domestic dispute in a vehicle. She kept trying to get out and he kept pulling her back in. I called the town PD as I followed the vehicle driving around while waiting for the PD to arrive.

As they approached the town/county line, I asked the PD desk where their officer was and what I should do and was told to pull the car over. I lit up my vehicle and the car stopped. I waited in my car tll the officer arrived and he took over. The last thing I heard form the scene as I drove away was the guy compIning "I got pulled over by the F%^king Fire Chief!"

[NWFDMedic 58]

We definitely shouldn't be pulling over anyone in the ambulance (Greenburgh notwithstanding). When I see a potential DUI, I will call the jurisdictional dispatch and follow at a safe distance if possible.

The last story though, where a life was potentially in immediate danger would be different. I think in that case, we would have to do what we think is the right thing as human beings. There's no way I'm going to let a woman get assaulted on my watch (at work or otherwise) and not do what I can to prevent it.

[tdc202 0]

I agree with NWFD If it were me I would radio dispatch with as much info or call the State Police and try to follow it as much as possible. Just my 2 cents

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I could be wrong but as it has been explained to me...in New York State, you do not have to pull over and stop for any vehicle that does not say POLICE on it. If it has flashing red lights, even if you think it is an unmarked car, you do not have to stop if it does not say Police. Is this correct?

Other than that, it was brought up on this board a while ago about a rescue truck in FL I think following a suspect until PD arrived. This seems like a much better idea than pulling a car over.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Sounds like nothing more then bad wording in the article. They were trying to get her attention to let her know about the gas hose and then after not getting her attention utilized their emergency lights to get her to stop to mitigate what could have become a hazard for othter motorist. The fact that she was apparantly intoxicated just so happened to be found out after the fact. I seriously doubt they just simply initiated a traffic stop.

As far as anyone else doing that...I could spend all day pulling people over and what lecture them. Its not in my job title nor do I have any legal standing to do so and wouldn't probably even if I could. They did the right thing by trying to stop a potential issue and did so by using their lights. If she wasn't loaded, they would have told her about the hose and probably to return to the gas station. I have done such things before when people have had flats, or another issue, funny enough one was the gas hose but they just pulled out of the gas station. Make sure your easily identifiable if you ever do that for safety or moral reasons so you are not mis identified as a police officer. Domestic disputes are highly volatile and extremely dangerous for law enforcement personnel who are armed. Those are situations where you must be highly cautious.

[SIGNMAN 4]

I have a better one for you, several years ago while at work one of our officers was out on a run with our Fire Engine, which was on old 68 Ford/Ward Lafrance Gas job that smoked liked crazy. He was passed by a vehicle on a double yellow line and our officer threw on the emergency lights and pulled the guy over and then issued him a UTT for passing in a no passing zone. The guy plead not guilty but in court the judge found him guilty as charged.

I work at a NYS facility and we provide emergency services to the campus so we are crossed trained in police/fire and EMS and are NYS Peace Officer. Ther offender was like you can't ticket me, here's your ticket and have a nice day.

Is this G.T.?

[markmets415 524]

Yes Signman that was the G-man.

[gpdexplorer 46]

Maybe some the law enforcement officers here can comment on this, what if a police officer was in an ambulance or fire truck, say as a volunteer, and witnessed someone commiting a felony, would they have the legal authority to stop the person?

[GPD102 7]

Yep, a police officer in New York State can arrest a person for a misdemeanor or a felony anywhere in the State of New York. Traffic infractions and violations are a different story.

[64FFMJK 21]

Police or Peace officer could effect an arrest o a person that commits a felony or misdormenor that was witnesed. Now the problem with an ambulance or fire chief etc pulling over a individual is that you can actuly damage the case against the suspect. Police need probable cause to effect an arrest that will yeaild a good case against a suspect and what do you think a good defence lawer will do with "well the fire dept. pulled them over and I arived 2 minutes latter." most likely the case would be dismissed and the dept could even be liable fo unlawfull arrest. When I am off duty if I were to observe something I would notify the police and continue to observe the activity of events. I woud only get involved personaly if there was an iminate threat to the life of myself or an other person. As instructed at the NYS Corrections academy the best thing that any off duty officer can do is get a good over all view of what happened and then make a good witness on the stand at trial.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I could be wrong but as it has been explained to me...in New York State, you do not have to pull over and stop for any vehicle that does not say POLICE on it. If it has flashing red lights, even if you think it is an unmarked car, you do not have to stop if it does not say Police. Is this correct?

Other than that, it was brought up on this board a while ago about a rescue truck in FL I think following a suspect until PD arrived. This seems like a much better idea than pulling a car over.

I am merely posting my thoughts and interpretations/thoughts, not intended as a be-all-end-all....

I had always thought this issue related to actual issuing and procedural. If an officer in an unmarked witnessed something, they could pursue and attempt to pull over someone in an unmarked, btu could not issue tickets without a marked unit there. I think it stemmed from an incident with the NYSP.

I repeat, I could be WRONG *gasp* , so please tell me what parts were right, or if I was straight up wrong!

Also, Mark, where do you work to have all those qualifications??

[RWC130 594]

Not to get off the topic of Ambulances pulling you over but here in the

State of New York you MUST yield the right of way to ALL Emergency Vehicles

Marked or Unmarked so long as they have Red Lights and Siren activated.

I'd be very cautious in saying you "DO NOT" have to pull over for a Unmarked Vehicle

because you don't want to find yourself in a situation where the Police Officer radios in Pursuit

for a vehicle failing to comply with his/her Flashing Red Lights and Siren.

Usually Police and News Media tell drivers if you are unsure if the person behind you attempting

to pull you over is a real Police Officer you should do the following:

1. Slow down, Pull to the Right, Turn on your hazard lights,

that way you are at least acknowledging them.

2. If at night time pull into a well lighted area.

3. Dial 911 on your cell phone, the 911 Dispatcher can usually verify with PD cars on

the road if you give your location.

IMO, You should always pull over!

If you are uncomfortable crack your window and tell him/her you would like a

Marked Police Vehicle or Uniformed Police Officer. You can also ask to see ID.

Police Officers CAN pull you over in Unmarked Cars. No laws against it in the State of New York.

Unmarked Cars are obviously great for Traffic/Speed Enforcement.

New York State Police (last I knew) had a policy put into place a few years ago that

Uniformed Troopers would no longer Patrol or conduct Traffic Stops in Unmarked Vehicles

I think this was a request from Governor Pataki at the time.

You will notice a lot of "Slick Cars" or "Slick Tops" which are the

Marked Police Cars (all the lettering) without the Lightbar.

Unmarked Police Vehicles are still commonly used by a lot of Town, Village, City Police

especially the NYPD.

Now, back on the topic. I think the Ambulance Crew acted in "Good Faith" doing what they did.

As far as the Ambulance pulling you over?

Watch out in Greenburgh! lol

[helicopper 1,050]

Without the training and experience that a police officer receives prior to conducting vehicle stops and without the appropriate PPE (kevlar, firearm, etc.) I would strongly discourage anyone from taking any kind of direct action in any vehicle (emergency or otherwise). You have no idea what is going on, you have no idea what the person is/was doing/thinking, what their mental state is, etc. Maybe that car was just carjacked from the gas station after an armed robbery and that's why the nozzle is still stuck in the fuel tank. Without knowing, the risk to you is too great! Be a good witness, keep following and reporting, and if it gets unsafe just let them go.

I'm glad the situation with the fire chief stopping the rolling domestic dispute worked out well but what if the irate combatant gets out of the vehicle and challenges you? What are you going to do then? You've put yourself in a bad situation. The dispatcher or agency that instructed the chief to make the stop took on an enormous liability too. I can't imagine telling someone to do something for which they are neither trained or equipped.

Years ago while working as a paramedic I came upon the scene of a violent felony. I was not about to challenge an armed suspect so I merely called it in and followed the suspect vehicle at a safe distance reporting his location until he could be stopped by the PD. Even now, unless there were very extenuating circumstances, I'd rather be a good witness than a dead hero!

As for unmarked vehicles, there is no prohibition in NYS against their use and if you choose to ignore one you'll find out is real soon enough - like when the back-up units and helicopter arrive! If you choose not to stop for one and continue driving at a normal speed while calling 911 on your cell phone you'll probably be fine. If you keep driving like a jerk and try to evade or elude the unmarked car, you're probably going to get a fistfull of tickets and/or matching silver bracelets.

It was the police spokesperson that used the terminology "initiated a traffic stop". Nothing in any statutes (that I'm aware of) in NYS authorizes anyone other than the police or certain peace officers to stop vehicles or "initiate traffic stops". I can see all sorts of legal issues with it so better to be safe than sorry.

[INIT915 1,119]

As RWC130 correctly states, it is perfectly legal and even common practice to use unmarked cars in NYS. The State Police has an internal policy that states unmarked cars should not be used for routine traffic stops if marked cars are available. NYSP unmarked cars however legally can do traffic stops if no marked unit is available.

Fire and EMS personnel conducting VTL stops, as Chris192 points out, is just downright dangerous. And perhaps, even unlawful:

S 135.05 Unlawful imprisonment in the second degree.

A person is guilty of unlawful imprisonment in the second degree when

he restrains another person.

Unlawful imprisonment in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

S 195.00 Official misconduct.

A public servant is guilty of official misconduct when, with intent to

obtain a benefit or deprive another person of a benefit:

1. He commits an act relating to his office but constituting an

unauthorized exercise of his official functions, knowing that such act

is unauthorized; or

2. He knowingly refrains from performing a duty which is imposed upon

him by law or is clearly inherent in the nature of his office.

Official misconduct is a class A misdemeanor.

S 190.26 Criminal impersonation in the first degree.

A person is guilty of criminal impersonation in the first degree when

he:

1. Pretends to be a police officer, or wears or displays without

authority, any uniform, badge or other insignia or facsimile thereof, by

which such police officer is lawfully distinguished or expresses by his

words or actions that he is acting with the approval or authority of any

police department; and

2. So acts with intent to induce another to submit to such pretended

official authority or otherwise to act in reliance upon said pretense

and in the course of such pretense commits or attempts to commit a

felony; or

3. Pretending to be a duly licensed physician or other person

authorized to issue a prescription for any drug or any instrument or

device used in the taking or administering of drugs for which a

prescription is required by law, communicates to a pharmacist an oral

prescription which is required to be reduced to writing pursuant to

section thirty-three hundred thirty-two of the public health law.

Criminal impersonation in the first degree is a class E felony.

[Guest]

Years ago while working as a paramedic I came upon the scene of a violent felony. I was not about to challenge an armed suspect so I merely called it in and followed the suspect vehicle at a safe distance reporting his location until he could be stopped by the PD.

LOL....really when was this? It sounds familiar. Just breakin' your shoes Chris!

[helicopper 1,050]

LOL....really when was this? It sounds familiar. Just breakin' your shoes Chris!

How did I know that YOU would have a comment!!!!

INIT915, thanks for posting those statutes. I was thinking much the same thing! Could be a nasty can of worms that gets opened!

[WAS967 97]

The only time I've ever executed what could be considered a traffic stop is when I had a truck with one of those stupid extended arm side view mirrors rip off my own side view mirror on a narrow portion of a local state road. In retrospect what I did was stupid, but they guy was clueless and it basically amounted to hit and run. From that experience, if the same happened today I'd likely just try to catch up with guy, not pull him over and just follow until the PD can catch up with him and do the dirty work.

As previously mentioned, the biggest fear you should have in these situations is the unknown. You never know what's going in the vehicle you could be "pulling over". At my primary job we frequently end up relocating to cover other areas when other medics go out on a call. While doing so one night, I spotted a NYC Taxi cab traveling across a major road probably having just got off the major highway in the area. It was heading into a particularly rural area. What eaked my interested was the blinky amber light on the back. Anyone who knows NYC Taxi Cabs and Livery cars knows this is a distress light that the driver sets off to warn police that he is in trouble. I of course followed at a safe distance and radioed police. But being early in the AM, and most of the local PDs being only part time, only the State Troopers were around to respond, and they were apparently coming from Somers. The situation was complicated by the fact that it was raining. Now following in a vehicle with big lights on it that looks a LOT like a police vehicle tends to gather attention. The taxi driver pulled over at one point and I slowly drove past but he waved at me in effect flagging me down. I guess if I were in a POV I would have just kept going, but being "on duty" some could argue that I have a duty to act, for who knows, the problem could have been medical in nature. The driver gets out as if to ask for directions and seemed overly nervous. I asked him discreetly if he needed help and he said yes. The occupants of the vehicle got out and asked what was going on. I had no idea what the deal was so I just told them he was asking for directions. The all got back in the vehicle and I continued to follow. I've no idea what the end result was from what I could tell on the radio it sounded like a monetary dispute over the cab far or something. But for all I know the guys could have had this poor driver at gunpoint.

So stay safe and try to think safe before going and doing anything "stupid".

[PS....I've pulled people over to the side and pulled up next to them to warn them of a dangerous situation before. IMHO, that's totally acceptable. Case in point of a local contractor with a LONG extension cord dragging behind his truck heading toward a local hamlet. Had he started taking the locals right and left hand turns with that thing whipping behind him, we'd likely have a few casualties on our hands. ]

[medic25 0]

When I was a volunteer EMT in Western NY many years ago, we executed a traffic stop on a drunk driver. My partner happened to be the District Attorney for the county, so I believe he did had the legal authority to execute an arrest. We were dispatched on a shared frequency with PD, so it was very easy for him to call for a marked car to complete the process. I'm not sure if it's something I'd recommend outside of extenuating circumstances like that.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Ok, I wanted to post this link while the thread was really active, but couldn't find it. I just stumbled upon the link, so here it is.

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=25528

[Guest EFFP411]

So I have an interesting story to add to this thread.... What would you do, if you were driving down the road in your ambulance, and the car in front of you appears to be smoking? Well, my partner thought it was a good idea to try and get the driver's attention, by talking over the PA, beeping the AIr Horn, but in failing to do so by normal methods, turned on the lights of the bus and "pulled the guy over". we pulled up next to him and told him his car was smoking, and it appeared to be a frozen brake caliper... And, in true Idiot fashion, he replies, "I know, i'm driving it to the shop, I want to get there before it catches fire". Needless to say I was not very surprised by his response, but it seemed like the right thing to do at the time...

[ny10570 745]

should have told him to drive faster.

[WAS967 97]

As with my example with the guy with the trailing electrical cord, if there is a safety issue then I think we not only have a moral obligation to react, but a duty to act as emergency professionals who are trained to recognize problems and react to them. Signaling the guy with lights and sirens was, IMHO, totally appropriate.