Cardinal Rule of Firefighting

[helicopper 1,050]

There is definately more than one way to skin a cat, and we all have to use that which is best for the circumstances we operate under.

Like you said...there are many ways to skin a cat. I guess my point is that before we reject out of hand other options, we should at least take the time to consider them, and think about why those who practise them made the decision to do so.

You keep saying this but you keep justifying your position in favor of the European modified crouch method while challenging the crawl method and it's proponents. You've stated your case, others have stated theirs and now people have a couple of options to consider when confronted with a challenging environment.

Instead of agreeing to disagree - since that's not the issue, why don't we all agree that this has been a fruitful discussion and take from it what we can. Some people may opt for the crawl in certain situations and the modified crouch in others.

Now we also have two more relevant topics to discuss:

1 - How to break tunnel vision during training and actual firefighting operations, and

2 - How best to go up/down stairs to protect yourself (sliding on your butt works for toddlers and may well work for FF too but if you fall you're leaving your spine very vulnerable to compression injuries as well as direct injury to the coccyx that may make self evacuation difficult/impossible.).

In the spirit of keeping this thread professional, let's not cast judgments about departments or their tactics. Let's discuss the concepts as a whole!

Thanks to all and especially jflynn for starting this thread.

[JFLYNN 681]

You keep saying this but you keep justifying your position in favor of the European modified crouch method while challenging the crawl method and it's proponents. You've stated your case, others have stated theirs and now people have a couple of options to consider when confronted with a challenging environment.

Instead of agreeing to disagree - since that's not the issue, why don't we all agree that this has been a fruitful discussion and take from it what we can. Some people may opt for the crawl in certain situations and the modified crouch in others.

Now we also have two more relevant topics to discuss:

1 - How to break tunnel vision during training and actual firefighting operations, and

2 - How best to go up/down stairs to protect yourself (sliding on your butt works for toddlers and may well work for FF too but if you fall you're leaving your spine very vulnerable to compression injuries as well as direct injury to the coccyx that may make self evacuation difficult/impossible.).

In the spirit of keeping this thread professional, let's not cast judgments about departments or their tactics. Let's discuss the concepts as a whole!

Thanks to all and especially jflynn for starting this thread.

Thanks Chris. To reiterate on stairs...going down backwards has many advantages in addition to those you have stated...just think about it for a minute or try it...you can not possibly get a lower profile (under the heat and smoke) or a more stable position than going backwards, plus, in the case of basement stairs, they are almost always very narrow and to turn around while on the stairs and get out fast, especially with the usual case of too many firefighters crowding the staircase (another issue alltogether), is very difficult...if you're facing up already and don't have to worry about turning around in such a narrow space you will be able to descend much more quickly- and descending quickly is another important tactic for basement or below grade fires, or the rare case when you are above the fire and need to get out down the interior stair...get your self together at the top of the stair, get down quickly and take your beating on the way down, and get off the stair and off to the side...for those who haven't done this you will be amazed at how much cooler it usually is once you get out of the "chimney"

[x635 4,066]

I'm suprised this wasn't mentioned (or I missed it)....several of the members posting on this thread taught me to ALWAYS sweep in front of you with either the heavy end of the ax or halligan when crawling.

Besides jumping out of the truck, there's a reason why the more seasoned vetrans all have knee injuries!!! I know in probie school they made us crawl so much that some guys went out to buy kneepads. I know if anyone stood up in our class, they would get knocked down.

Also, the role of the truck company is crucial in this....the sooner the building gets opened up, the cooler it gets and the easier it is to see and work. While the Engine company is starting to make entry, the truck company shoudl be starting to cut that hole. And that doesn't always mean playing with the big fancy aerial, especially in residential structures, throw a ground ladder and get up to that roof!! Meanwhile, the apparatus operator should be focusing on placing the aerial. No truck company? Engines have ladders too, and axes. You still crawl, however conditions are probaly better.

but if you fall you're leaving your spine very vulnerable to compression injuries

And, from experience, compression injuries are no fun! I had the same happen to me, fell directly on my butt. Often what happens is the discs in your back pop out and pop back in, causing swelling of the spinal cord. This can lead to immediate paralysysis, that may or may not go away very easily, and can leave you with several herniated discs and pinched nerves for the rest of your life..

[grumpyff 1,159]

Also, the role of the truck company is crucial in this....the sooner the building gets opened up, the cooler it gets and the easier it is to see and work. While the Engine company is starting to make entry, the truck company shoudl be starting to cut that hole. And that doesn't always mean playing with the big fancy aerial, especially in residential structures, throw a ground ladder and get up to that roof!! Meanwhile, the apparatus operator should be focusing on placing the aerial. No truck company? Engines have ladders too, and axes.

Seth,

I was always taught start with horizontal ventilation. I f the fire is on the top floor, then check with the interior crews to make sure they want the roof opened up that soon, (although that maybe a topic for another thread.

AS for going down the stairs, yeah I would have to agree with feet first, facing the stairs. As mentioned you can move quicker, and react quicker if the stuff hits the fan. I also feel it is a better way to check to the integrity of the stair treads. It just seems like do a crab walk down the stairs (facing up) you cant hit the stairs as hard, and you head feels much higher up in the heat and smoke

[nfd2004 750]

Wow ! ! ! Somewhere along here I got lost. Sometime between 1975 and 2004, we put out a few fires. Come to think of it now, I"m not sure if we used a booster line or a 1 3/4 line. How did we really get down those stairs. They were usually covered with debris and hose lines. I might have even slid down or fell down them a few times. Sometimes we needed to get out in a hurry. And it wasn"t "One" flight of stairs, maybe it was two or three. Of course we couldn"t see anything, and I remember somebody telling me never to loose touch of that hoseline. I don"t think it was OSHA that taught me that. But somehow, most of the time we all got out. I seemed to learn a lot from Senior Firefighters, and some Great Old School Officers.

When I attended several of the State Fire Dept Courses, they would have me memorize things like what fire hose was made of, the expansion rate of steam, and even Maslows Needs. I became what the State of Ct calls certified in Fire Fighter l, ll, and lll. Also Fire Officer l, and Fire Instructor l. NOTHING that I learned in those classes helped me with doing my job as a Firefighter and later Officer. If I learned anything in my job, it was mostly from the experience of others and some hands on drills. I was also a buff, and I spent a lot of time watching and observing some of the busiest depts that fought fires. Those guys were a big help too.

Well, back to the starting point. As I said, "Somewhere along here I got lost"

[wraftery 1,275]

I never said this, and I will deny it to the hilt.

Next time you are in some smoke at the burn building and it is getting a little hot, too, find a place where no one can see you, and do this:

Take your glove off one hand and hold your ungloved hand up in the air for 1 second. It's hotter up there. A lot hotter.

Now your head up a little and pull outward on your facepiece until some smoke comes in. Now do the same thing with your nose to the ground. There's air at the floor.

Watch out for the Safety guys with TICS. They can get you fired for trying this.

Because smoke contains carcinigens, etc., you should only do thid TWICE in your lifetime. The first is at the training center.

The second is when you are in Mayday-style trouble, out of air, and trying to get a breath.

Or you could take Flynn's word for it and CRAWL...all the time.

(Say nothing, Lads, I tell you this in secrecy.)

[JFLYNN 681]

Wow ! ! ! Somewhere along here I got lost. Sometime between 1975 and 2004, we put out a few fires. Come to think of it now, I"m not sure if we used a booster line or a 1 3/4 line. How did we really get down those stairs. They were usually covered with debris and hose lines. I might have even slid down or fell down them a few times. Sometimes we needed to get out in a hurry. And it wasn"t "One" flight of stairs, maybe it was two or three. Of course we couldn"t see anything, and I remember somebody telling me never to loose touch of that hoseline. I don"t think it was OSHA that taught me that. But somehow, most of the time we all got out. I seemed to learn a lot from Senior Firefighters, and some Great Old School Officers.

When I attended several of the State Fire Dept Courses, they would have me memorize things like what fire hose was made of, the expansion rate of steam, and even Maslows Needs. I became what the State of Ct calls certified in Fire Fighter l, ll, and lll. Also Fire Officer l, and Fire Instructor l. NOTHING that I learned in those classes helped me with doing my job as a Firefighter and later Officer. If I learned anything in my job, it was mostly from the experience of others and some hands on drills. I was also a buff, and I spent a lot of time watching and observing some of the busiest depts that fought fires. Those guys were a big help too.

Well, back to the starting point. As I said, "Somewhere along here I got lost"

HAHA, I don't know you but I feel like I do...I love your posts and I get it...I grew up in a home w/ a Dad who was a Firefighter...listening to his and his friends war stories and listening to the scanner and buffing jobs in Yonkers and New York in the 70's, then got hired as a young guy in the late 80's, and continued to buff for many years, while bartending on the side in a Fireman's bar and listening to old timer's war stories and basically interrogating any guy on the job who came in and had been to a fire recently...I wanted to know all the details...meanwhile I studied my a** off and went to lots of classes and schools, and I learned some good stuff from the studying and schooling, but most of the really useful stuff regarding actual structural firefighting, and in particular truck and rescue work, I learned from doing, and from and listening to those who had actually done it, a lot...

Problem is, what's the definition of "a lot"? I guess you'll all have to decide that for yourselves...

[FFPCogs 863]

Wow ! ! ! Somewhere along here I got lost. Sometime between 1975 and 2004, we put out a few fires. Come to think of it now, I"m not sure if we used a booster line or a 1 3/4 line. How did we really get down those stairs. They were usually covered with debris and hose lines. I might have even slid down or fell down them a few times. Sometimes we needed to get out in a hurry. And it wasn"t "One" flight of stairs, maybe it was two or three. Of course we couldn"t see anything, and I remember somebody telling me never to loose touch of that hoseline. I don"t think it was OSHA that taught me that. But somehow, most of the time we all got out. I seemed to learn a lot from Senior Firefighters, and some Great Old School Officers.

When I attended several of the State Fire Dept Courses, they would have me memorize things like what fire hose was made of, the expansion rate of steam, and even Maslows Needs. I became what the State of Ct calls certified in Fire Fighter l, ll, and lll. Also Fire Officer l, and Fire Instructor l. NOTHING that I learned in those classes helped me with doing my job as a Firefighter and later Officer. If I learned anything in my job, it was mostly from the experience of others and some hands on drills. I was also a buff, and I spent a lot of time watching and observing some of the busiest depts that fought fires. Those guys were a big help too.

Well, back to the starting point. As I said, "Somewhere along here I got lost"

Yes isn't it amazing that we managed to put fires out and actually live to tell the tale without all the safety regulations and innovation of today's fire service? How did we possibly do it without all the "knowledge" that we are blessed with today? Will wonders never cease? I do really believe that sometimes we have to take a step back to move forward...in other words what "used to " work STILL does!!

I never said this, and I will deny it to the hilt.

Next time you are in some smoke at the burn building and it is getting a little hot, too, find a place where no one can see you, and do this:

Take your glove off one hand and hold your ungloved hand up in the air for 1 second. It's hotter up there. A lot hotter.

Now your head up a little and pull outward on your facepiece until some smoke comes in. Now do the same thing with your nose to the ground. There's air at the floor.

Watch out for the Safety guys with TICS. They can get you fired for trying this.

Because smoke contains carcinigens, etc., you should only do thid TWICE in your lifetime. The first is at the training center.

The second is when you are in Mayday-style trouble, out of air, and trying to get a breath.

Or you could take Flynn's word for it and CRAWL...all the time.

(Say nothing, Lads, I tell you this in secrecy.)

Careful the safety goons may soon be at your firehouse to save you from yourself. To them experience counts for little if anything on the fireground.

Cogs

ps: For those who haven't, find and read LT Ray McCormacks speech from FDIC

Edited August 7, 2009 by FFPCogs

[ex-commish 490]

The recent post about NIMS compliance which referred to the tragic LOD's in Manlius, NY, has spurred me to post this topic concerning one of the most cardinal rules of Firefighting which is often ignored with tragic consequences:

If You Can't See Where You Are About To Place Your Foot.......

CRAWL!!

Inside a fire building, on the roof, even in the street, crawl when you can't see your feet, regardless of the heat conditions. If you are crawling, you will move more quickly and safely because you won't have to worry about stepping into a hole or shaft, or tripping over unseen obstacles. Many Firefighters are seriously injured and killed every year because of trips or falls that would not have happened if they were crawling instead of walking.

P.S. What you are looking for (fire victims) are more easily found (bumped into) when crawling, and what is trying to kill you (heat, smoke, flashover) is more easily avoided when crawling.

P.S.S. Don't forget to continually monitor conditions at the ceiling for signs of flashover.

* Of course, the above information will not receive nearly as much attention as posts on the latest parade or new shiny apparatus, but hopefully it will make a positive difference for some of you. Qtip...

Great post. To the point and effective. Glad to see the responses recieved.

[RWC130 594]

* Of course, the above information will not receive nearly as much attention as posts on the latest parade or new shiny apparatus, but hopefully it will make a positive difference for some of you. Qtip...

Sadly so true...

We should keep this thread going, lets get some REAL FOCUS on

Firefighter Safety!

[Guest DFD189]

It is clear that many of those who have responded/commented on Chief Flynn's post are proud members of a fraternity of Northeast firefighters who have definately seen alot of action on the fireground. There is no doubt that many fires have been extinguished, and indeed many lives saved, by the actions undertaken by this group of firefighters. No one, especially myself, is trying to claim otherwise.

But, to be frank, I do detect a whiff of arrogance from a group of people who are supposed to be firefighting professionals. Certainly your 8, 10, 15, 20, 25 or even more years of firefighting experience counts for something. But most people involved in any profession would acknowledge that the moment you think you know it all, perhaps its time to take the gold watch, because you're no longer useful to a profession which is in constant need of adaptation and refinement. You've become a liability, a danger.

20 years ago people wore 3/4 boots, rubber coats, and often times didn't use air packs. They still put the fires out. They also got burned, and many are dropping dead today because of cancer caused by the carcinigens they assimilated over the years "taking a good feed." It is not submission to the safety Nazis that brought about the PPE and SCBA practices that are in place today. It was a willingness to recognize that there is a better way of doing business that takes advantage of the advances in technology.

When many of the tactics that we use today were developed, the firefighting community didn't have the deep understanding of fire behavior that exists today. Sure, you veterans fought fire, and your experience counts. But beyond the common-sense approach to evaluating what happened at a given fire, there wasn't much science. Rather, alot of guess-work and speculation. Thanks to NIST and other research institutes around the world, we are learning a tremendous amount about how fire behaves in a given structure. If fire is the enemy here, this knowledge therefore gives us the ability to refine our tactics and operational methodologies so that we can more efficiently and safely kill the enemy. Tactics derived from a thorough study of fire behavior should not be mocked or belittled simply because they deviate from established practice. How many people on this forum can say they have conducted a serious, science-based study of fire behavior? I know that the firefighter I and II curriculums which serve as the foundation of NY State fire training spends very little amount of time on the issue. Neither does the curriculum for Fire Officer. The first time an OFPC course comes close to any detailed analysis of fire behavior in a structure is in the Principles of Fire Investigation course. An article in Firehouse.com recently had a Chief saying that perhaps we should train our firefighters to be arson investigators first, and then firefighters, so that they might actually understand what it is they are dealing with.

I'm an instructor, like many of you in this forum. Let's be honest: teaching firefighter basics in a concrete fixed-burn building, using NFPA 1403-limited pallet/paper fires, is about as far removed from reality as one gets. If we go back to the genesis of "why we do that", I think we might be surprised to find that some of what we do is derived from the fact that our training venues dictate that solution. We put wax paper in a mask to simulate reduced visibility because we can't effectively simulate what reality is. Even when we light fires, the smoke and heat conditions created are so far removed from reality as to verge on the useless. Teaching a crew to advance in on 150 pounds of burning material confined to a bin in the corner of a concrete room where there is no fire spread, no real sustained overhead fire and resultant radiant heat, no ongoing pyrolisis of materials in the fire room, is the equivalent of teaching Marines to assault a bunker using blanks and dummy grenades. Yes, we can establish the "basics", but the relationship to reality is non-existant and the training value virtually useless, since the evolution probably reinforces more bad habits than it teaches sound practise.

"Cardinal rules" maybe aren't so "Cardinal." Stairs and basement fires. Cardinal rule: NEVER turn your back on a fire. Yet, we are told to do just that to go down the stairs. Why? It's safer? Perhaps, if the stairs collapsed. But my major problem is the fire in the basement, which is coming up at me via the staircase as if it were a chimney. Now, truth be told, there should have been one heck of a risk-benefit analysis taken place before committing a crew to that staircase to begin with. Are there people in the basement who need rescued? Are the conditions in the basement capable of supporting viable victims? What is the building construction? How long has the fire been burning? Do we really want to be here? And if the answer to all of this is still "yes", then maybe one way to fight the fire would be to advance from protected position to protected position, pausing at the top of the stairs to spray water down to the bottom of the stairs, cooling that area for a short while, then spraying down the overhead with bursts of water from the nozzle to cool the fire gases present and retard pyrolysis, and then make your way down the stairs, crouched on your butt, monitoring the overhead conditions and reapplying water as required, until you achieve the bottom, where you can find a door frame as protection from radiant heat, adjust to the fire, and continue your advance. Theoretical? No. Based on first hand experience, it works. Could the stairs collapse? Sure. Am I in a worse position crouched than I would be if I were face down? Maybe. Maybe not. I can run through any number of scenarios involving rapid fire progression and the risks of flashover, etc, where the face down position isn't an advantage.

The Northeast is not the only place in the US with balloon-frame construction, Queen Anne houses, and old Mill-style construction. The Pacific Northwest is full of such communities. So is Michigan, Ohio, Indiana. The list goes on. I bring up the Pacific Northwest because these proud firefighters, with significant experience, history and tradition, have demonstrated a willingness to consider new approaches to firefighting derived from tragic first hand experience. Every year the Oregon Association of Fire Instructors runs a firefighter safety and survival seminar. I've had the pleasure of attending. Chief Ed Hartin of Greshem, Oregon (a suburb of Portland, with lots and lots of nice, old Queen Anne homes) teaches compartmented fire behavior training courses which incoporates the advances in firefighting science and technology derived from studies doen in Sweden, the UK and here in the US, from NIST. These aren't theoretical lessons, but rather practical firefighting skills designed to deal with issues which arose in firefighter LODD in the Northwest, Midwest and elsewhere. The Seattle Fire Department offers its unique class on air management, which is a definite departure from the current practise of many fire departments around the country (be honest -- how many firefighters reading this wait for their low air alarm to go off before thinking about exiting the structure -- but this is another issue altogether).

This isn't a US-versus-Europe issue. This is a firefighter issue. And the moment we stop learning about fire (and a definition of learning is "the modification of behavioral tendancy by experience, instruction or study", distinct from "conditioning", which is perhaps a more accurate definition of what really goes on when we train our firefighters today) we become a liability, not an asset.

I, too, watched Lt. McCormack's speech at FDIC. Brilliant stuff. "Culture of extinguishment" versus "culture of safety." Put out the fire, and most of your problems go away. Common sense. "Should we be cautious and knowledgable? Yes. Fearful? No."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Edited August 7, 2009 by DFD189

[Monty 35]

Firstly, great idea to start the topic, great topic and many things to think about.

Where are your feet going?

What's above you?

What's around you?

Now, on the sub-topic, I think DFD189 makes some great points. Just because something (seems) to work, should we keep doing it? I'm often a proponent of it aint broke don't fix it (maybe because when I take things apart and put them back together again there's always parts leftover!). But, Society is always developing.

I think we all need to open our eyes to trying new things. Certainly many of the folk here already here do this. No one here says that the job didn't get done in the past - but maybe at what cost? And could that cost be lessoned today. I'm sure many people read the trade mags. Do you read the articles in there about trying new ideas? I keep hearing the arguement that Europe has different construction materials - but where is the fire load these days? Generally its the contents not the structure, so maybe this arguement should be revisited.

How about looking at Fire Behavior and ventilation? Especially with newer buildings? I know it's good to take all the windows, but should we? Are we making the fire worse?

There was mention of the NorthWest. Seattle developed a new procedure on SCBA usage after they had an incident go bad. They consider it bad practice to have your low alarm go off when you are still in the structure. They treat it as a reserve (as I understand divers do) and not just a suggestion that you should start thinking about leaving the building. Maybe we shouldn't worry as we never used to have SCBA's and those guys came out OK. Didn't they?

I think my main point here is that just because we've got our 200 years of tradition (Now some of Europe has over 400), we shouldn't stop being open to new ideas, educating ourselves and trying new ideas - comparing them against the current benchmarks. Some ideas will fail - but some will also prove to be better than the current situation.

Just to finish up, it was interesting to see this statement, given the recent news release (from the Secret List) posted below:

from the Fire Orders (basic Tenets of Wildland Firefighting)

Fight fire aggressively, having Provided for Safety First

NO SIREN/RED LIGHT USE WHEN RESPONDING TO WILDLAND/FOREST FIRES:

It looks like the SW Region of the US Forest Service will be stopping the use of red light/siren response to wildland and forest related fires. They will no longer authorize training of their folks on/or the use of existing light/siren equipment for this purpose on any of the forests within their region. They established a committee of employees and they recommended it be stopped due to un-needed liability .....

[efdcapt115 1,511]

But, to be frank, I do detect a whiff of arrogance from a group of people who are supposed to be firefighting professionals. Certainly your 8, 10, 15, 20, 25 or even more years of firefighting experience counts for something. But most people involved in any profession would acknowledge that the moment you think you know it all, perhaps its time to take the gold watch, because you're no longer useful to a profession which is in constant need of adaptation and refinement. You've become a liability, a danger.

First thing guy; the men you are refering to are not "supposed" to be firefighting professionals, they ARE firefighting professionals. Your reference to 8-25 years of experience counts for more than just "something." I have never read a post in here from a TRUE fire professional (career or volunteer) who alluded to "knowing it all."

The adaptation and refinement of firefighting techniques has not only been employed by some of these brothers, in many cases they have introduced it, taught it, and implemented it in their departments.

To allude to members becoming a "liability, a danger" or "taking a gold watch" because they have taken the time to respond thoughtfully to your postings from their perspective, experience and knowledge; with all of the places and training you claim to have experienced, suprises me and makes me think you are starting to TIP.

I think you've made your point about members and departments keeping up to date, reviewing and refining their firefighting practices, and always keeping an open mind about how things in the service can and will constantly change.

I also think any member who has offered input into this thread would be very willing to admit the mistakes they have made in the past, and how they learned from those mistakes.

Maybe it's time to put it to rest, as I find your comments being prefaced with statements like the one I quoted from you to be slightly offensive to the brothers with the experience and knowledge you may not have, even with your "amazing" amount of worldwide training.

Edit: for spelling

Edited August 7, 2009 by efdcapt115

[helicopper 1,050]

efd, thank you for your eloquent response to what could have been incendiary remarks (not a bad pun - and from a cop no less! )

I think your post should be the first and last response to those off-topic comments so this is the official notice that posts must be on the topic to remain. Please focus on the important issues and professional.

The issue is being monitored by the staff and specific members will be contacted directly if necessary.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[FFPCogs 863]

I, being a proud member of that "fraternity of Northeast firefighters" and yes being somewhat arrogant too, just find that the OVER emphasis on safety and an OVER reliance on technology are a major concern that has in fact impeded our ability to do our jobs effectively. The job of a firefighter has not changed since it began 2000 years ago, no matter how many advances have been made in our methods of doing it. We are here to safeguard the public we serve, and yes to be frank we are here to put ourselves in harms way FOR them. That is the basis of what being a firefighter is and anything less is a breach of trust. When we put ourselves above those we serve we are in fact condemning them to their fate...for no one else is capable of saving them. It is wonderful that technological advances have made the job "safer" (although the number of firefighters killed in the line of duty has remained relatively static for a long time and yes proportionally fire, heart attacks, MVAs), but now we have regulations that hamper or prevent the firefighter from carrying out his DUTY unless certain conditions are met. Well maybe in some places those conditions are a regular fact of life, but for me and the departments I've been involved with that is not the case. So to follow the safety guidelines we should let people perish, or allow their property to be destroyed when with a little effort and using your experience they can be saved....NONSENSE!!

Now I'm fully aware that the number of actual fires is down, so too then is the experience level of those now "on the job", but truth is no amount of book smarts, science or regulation will make up for that. Firefighting CANNOT be learned from a book, or done effectively by following guidelines that require us to stand outside waiting for conditions to warrant entry. As it was, it still is...firefighters go in when even the cockroaches scurry out...that is WHY we are here. And with all due respect, experience is the only true teacher in this field that makes that possible. So instead of looking outward for the knowledge, members should be looking where it is and has been all along...with the senior members who have done it for years. They have seen it, done it and lived it and are worth far more than a stack of textbooks, diplomas and certifications to gain the skills necessary to do the job. (Let me just clarify that I am not anti education or certification as I hold a number of them myself, but these are not the end of journey as some seem to think, but just the first steps on the road to becoming a good fireman).

I had the good fortune (or curse) of working with a large number of FFs from across U.S. during my stints overseas. One of the major focuses of conversations was how we all do what we do back home. Well having put many of the latest and greatest theories and procedures to the test while there I can say in all fairness and frankness that the "fraternity of Northeast firefighters" has it right and I thank God everyday that I came into the service not only when I did but where I did. I truly am all about doing the job safely and everyone going home at the end of the day, I am just one who feels that regulation and technology are not the ONLY means to achieve that. They have their place side by side with, not in front of, the experience of those who have been at this for all these years.

Cogs

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Thanks Chris. I'm still really interested to hear some thoughts about what you brought up earlier:

"How to break tunnel vision during training and actual firefighting operations"

I think this a worthy direction to take the discussion.

I for one think the truck company officer holds a greater responsibility in this specific area. More than likely he/she will be the one monitoring conditions with the TIC, looking over the shoulder of the firefighters under his direct control performing a search, crawling, sweeping for victims. Let your firefighter concentrate on his specific task of search and rescue, and be ready to give the order to retreat if conditions deteriorate.

We all know that in a flashover you will die in eight seconds, fully geared and properly protected. The company officer needs to be looking up and around while his members are looking down and over/under objects in the search area, so the warning can be given in time to prevent members becoming trapped in a flash.

This holds true for the engine company officer; using the TIC monitoring his members making a push into a fire.

The more eyes looking up and around; protecting the members whose job it is to be looking down, the better.

Edit: The point I was trying to make is IMHO breaking tunnel vision is a team effort inside the fire building.

Edited August 7, 2009 by efdcapt115

[firemoose827 324]

you are right about the problem of tunnel vision but I don't agree with your ideas on how to avoid it. I don't know much about Europe but in my experience in actual Firefighting as well as in training as both student and instructor, modified crouch is ok for nozzleman as well as maybe his Officer and backupman once water is flowing and they are operating the nozzle (I guess I should have mentioned that) but crawling is more practical for everyone else...less physically taxing, faster, lower profile, more balanced, more body surface on the floor (distance from each elbow to wrists and distance from each knee to toes vs. bottoms of two feet- therefore greater likelihood of feeling fire victims, obstructions, etc.). As, I said, "regardless of heat conditions, if you can't see your feet, crawl", so I am not advocating crawling only when "conditions are such that you are driven that low"...certainly if it is too hot to stand without getting burned, then we should consider carefully whether to remain where we are, advance or retreat based on a number of factors, chiefly among them possible life hazards, but we certainly can not always wait "until conditions improve" "before going deeper into the structure"

But whatdoIknow?

Thanks for this info chief, I have always been trying to modify the way I crawl in to a fire in order to maximize my stability and my vision of whats going on above my head. I found the modified crawl to be good for seeing whats going on...but bad on stability and speed. Overall, I found that the old way of crawling in on your hands and knees is the way to go. Just stop and look up every few seconds or minutes to see that nothing is getting past you, or worse, coming down on top of you. Great post, this is why I am a member here.

You keep saying this but you keep justifying your position in favor of the European modified crouch method while challenging the crawl method and it's proponents. You've stated your case, others have stated theirs and now people have a couple of options to consider when confronted with a challenging environment.

Instead of agreeing to disagree - since that's not the issue, why don't we all agree that this has been a fruitful discussion and take from it what we can. Some people may opt for the crawl in certain situations and the modified crouch in others.

Now we also have two more relevant topics to discuss:

1 - How to break tunnel vision during training and actual firefighting operations, and

2 - How best to go up/down stairs to protect yourself (sliding on your butt works for toddlers and may well work for FF too but if you fall you're leaving your spine very vulnerable to compression injuries as well as direct injury to the coccyx that may make self evacuation difficult/impossible.).In the spirit of keeping this thread professional, let's not cast judgments about departments or their tactics. Let's discuss the concepts as a whole!

Thanks to all and especially jflynn for starting this thread.

This is another great topic. I think this is the best way to go up and down stairs too. I have never done this in my past but will start using it now. Its always clumsy and unsure going up and down stairs any other way loaded with gear and tools, but this way seems to be the best way. This is a GREAT topic, lets keep it going and keep it respectful too like chris mentioned.

[x635 4,066]

Or you could take Flynn's word for it and CRAWL...all the time.

Excellent topic.

Just something very simplre that came to mine, don't we teach CHILDREN to stay low and crawl? So then why doesn't the very same apply to us? Maybe we need to go to our own fire prevention classes.

[wraftery 1,275]

Don't neessarily knock the "old guys."

We are the ones that might have been doing things wrong. We are also the ones who saw the need for some changes and got things changed for today's FF.

We asked for better SCBA's, more formal education in the fire service, better PPE, etc. (Look up Emmanuel Friied and where he taught)

The Trench cut, for example was developed by trial and error in the South Bronx Burn, baby Burn days.

What you have, FF of today, is what the old guys gave you. (Not me, my father. I just made a few improvements and passed it along)

Look ahead, young Firefighters, but look back, too

[JFLYNN 681]

Firstly, great idea to start the topic, great topic and many things to think about.

Where are your feet going?

What's above you?

What's around you?

Now, on the sub-topic, I think DFD189 makes some great points. Just because something (seems) to work, should we keep doing it? I'm often a proponent of it aint broke don't fix it (maybe because when I take things apart and put them back together again there's always parts leftover!). But, Society is always developing.

I think we all need to open our eyes to trying new things. Certainly many of the folk here already here do this. No one here says that the job didn't get done in the past - but maybe at what cost? And could that cost be lessoned today. I'm sure many people read the trade mags. Do you read the articles in there about trying new ideas? I keep hearing the arguement that Europe has different construction materials - but where is the fire load these days? Generally its the contents not the structure, so maybe this arguement should be revisited.

How about looking at Fire Behavior and ventilation? Especially with newer buildings? I know it's good to take all the windows, but should we? Are we making the fire worse?

There was mention of the NorthWest. Seattle developed a new procedure on SCBA usage after they had an incident go bad. They consider it bad practice to have your low alarm go off when you are still in the structure. They treat it as a reserve (as I understand divers do) and not just a suggestion that you should start thinking about leaving the building. Maybe we shouldn't worry as we never used to have SCBA's and those guys came out OK. Didn't they?

I think my main point here is that just because we've got our 200 years of tradition (Now some of Europe has over 400), we shouldn't stop being open to new ideas, educating ourselves and trying new ideas - comparing them against the current benchmarks. Some ideas will fail - but some will also prove to be better than the current situation.

Just to finish up, it was interesting to see this statement, given the recent news release (from the Secret List) posted below:

Sometimes I just read these posts and look at my computer screen and scratch my head....I'm reminded of the old expression, "you can lead a horse to water"...you guys know the rest....or the other expression, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"...or, as an old senior man who I learned a lot from used to say "they don't get it and they never will"...it's ironic that oftentimes the very people who would most benefit by opening their minds and listening, are in too much of a hurry as soon as they hear something to give you the old "ya, but..." so, this post is not meant for those guys referenced above, (because they'll never get it) but for the rest of you, please refer to my original post...unfortunately, every year, firefighters are injured and killed because they put their foot somewhere they shouldn't have and it is my humble opinion based on observation, study, and experience, that these bad things would not happen nearly so much if we would all just crawl when we can't see our feet. Plus, as I and others have mentioned, there are many other advantages of getting into the HABIT of crawling.

We're all very impressed with some of you guys and your knowledge about European Firefighting and Building construction, NIST studies, venting the roof, venting windows (BTW, who said "it's good to take all the windows", and, oh my gosh, we're not supposed to wait anymore until the vibralert goes off to begin exiting the structure??), PPE, blahblablahblahblah ad nauseum, these are all great things to talk about, read about, etc. (I and others here have spent many years and thousands of hours doing so). However, that was not the intention of the original post.

Hopefully, no one reading this now will have this whole string of posts flash before their eyes someday as they get that "sinking" feeling (literally) because they just put their foot somewhere they shouldn't have.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

What you have, FF of today, is what the old guys gave you. (Not me, my father. I just made a few improvements and passed it along)

Bill, I often looked at the portrait of your father on our Wall. He and all those other "low shield number" first generation guys starting with Tommy Gorman Shield Number 1, unselfishly gave to us who came later; and the "second generation" of professional firefighters in Eastchester made sure guys like us in the "third generation" knew about it.

I truly hope the brothers continue the tradition of remembering who came before them, what they contributed to the improvement of the job; the benefits they fought tooth and nail for, the fight for the succesful creation of the pension system, and the IAFF and it's honored locals, that had to meet in secrecy in the early days.

Some guys don't know much about the history of their departments and the brothers that came before them and what they contributed to the job. They should take the time to learn about it, and respect it. Most guys DO know it though, and carefully remember the whos, whats, and wheres. (word is we had a guy that cooked a cat once, but it was during the Great Depression)

Some departments don't even recognize the sacrifices the members made personally to ensure their communities were safe. We had a first generation brother pass away as a result of physical injury sustained at a working fire; and to this day the department has never even put up a plaque in his honor (if I missed something and they did it, I apologize). We've had brothers who were way too young pass away from needless exposure to carcinogens.

Personally, I'll never forget.

~Stay well

[efdcapt115 1,511]

We've had brothers who were way too young pass away from needless exposure to carcinogens.

Edit: The needless exposure to carcinogens came from within the firehouse and inadequate ventilation systems that simply stirred and spread diesel particulate matter up, around and onto all surfaces; including everything in our kitchens, dormitories and day rooms. The members today will never experience this thankfully.

[Raz 14]

Earlier I pointed out about being on 1 knee. Other then when crawling, the majority of instructors (including myself) teach and consistently reinforce staying off both knees when operating. Being on both knees is not as stable as being on at least 1 knee

I think this is similar to what I do. I've always referred to it as "sprawling", which anyone who's ever wrestled or watched a UFC fight should be familiar with. I started doing it in the academy, because sometimes I feel like my knees belong to a guy twice my age. Basically, get down in a position as if you were going to to a pushup, then bend your elbows and bring one leg forward so that your knee almost makes contact with your elbow.

You'll be in a much lower profile compared to being on both knees. You'll be able to move faster, if conditions allow. Your weight will be more evenly distributed, and you'll have the power of both your quadriceps readily available, which (for a small guy like me) is a definite plus.

Edit: The needless exposure to carcinogens came from within the firehouse and inadequate ventilation systems that simply stirred and spread diesel particulate matter up, around and onto all surfaces; including everything in our kitchens, dormitories and day rooms. The members today will never experience this thankfully.

If only that were the case everywhere, Captain.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Raz

[efdcapt115 1,511]

If only that were the case everywhere,

(Apologies for taking the thread off topic)

I should have said the brothers and sister in EASTCHESTER will never have to experience the constant nightmare of diesel e/p residue ever again, because of Nederman systems being installed.

I referenced in another post about how improvements in the fire service more than often come from the bottom up; from the members of the dept. The Nederman experience we had in Eastchester is one of those cases.

Our Health & Safety Committee of Local 916 pushed hard for these systems. I remember a fire commissioner who attended our mandatory H&S meeting (required by CONTRACT, another thing the older brothers had fought hard to establish) suggesting maybe the dept could find the money to outfit ONE firehouse per year; making elimination of diesel e/p a FIVE YEAR project!

With the permission of the Chief of Dept. we went after our second AFG grant, flat out for exhaust systems; and we won the grant.

Now we, the members went back to the department commmissioner with 50 grand plus and said "okay, let's get this done now sans your assinine five year plan."

I'd certainly hope any department today not outfitted for safe removal of diesel e/p residue would have that item as one of their highest priorities for the members. Diesel particulate has been a silent killer in the fire service for decades.

Edited August 11, 2009 by efdcapt115

[ems-buff 81]

I have recently started FF1 at WCDES.... And I have to say that I have learned alot from this topic, along with all the great instructors, and the book. I must say... When I did Mask Confidence today, for the 1st time. It was really hard, but whenever I got to stairs I went feet first, crawled, and felt my way thru everything, carefully. I have to say thank you to all that posted on this topic, for helping me gain more knowledge on how to protect myself in a fire...