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[wraftery 1,275]

I thought it was time to get our brains back to work with a scenario. How about for this one, the nore experienced guys keep quiet for a while, and let the newer guys show their stuff.

This is what you see on arrival. It was reported as a "kitchen fire."

What can you tell us about this particular building,just by looking at the arrival picture?

Where is the kitchen.

And, if you've got the time "Was she a tall cow?

Edited September 19, 2010 by wraftery

[firefighter36 52]

I'll start off, 3 electric meters on the building, indicative of a multi-family home. the dormer seems out of place too, could there be an upstairs apartment?

The front windows line up, as with balloon frame construction.Could the kitchen be in an upstairs apartment? OR could it be the basement kitchen that a family uses to do all the cooking to keep the main kitchen clean? I remember my great-grandmother living in a similar building. The upstairs kitchen was for show, and the basement kitchen was for cooking.

Thanks for the scenario, Chief. On a side-note, did you teach fire behavior the first week of my academy class? (Westchester Career Academy 2003-5) Thanks for an interesting lesson!

[LTNRFD 266]

Multi-family house. Kitchen fire may be on either the 1st, 2nd or 3rd floor. Utility wires will limit the use of the aerial ladder.

[Remember585 815]

Is it a photoshop issue or is there only 1/2 a window on that "D" side?

I agree, multi-family dwelling, possibly a 3rd floor kitchen on fire. Looks like the only access to the upper levels is via interior stairwells, no fire escapes (unless on the C or B sides).

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Ooooh! Ooooh! Ooooh!

[LTNRFD 266]

Ooooh! Ooooh! Ooooh!

George...Is that your Hair Club for Men after picture ?????

[efdcapt115 1,511]

George...Is that your Hair Club for Men after picture ?????

It's actually YOU. Chief asked the old fogies to let the new guys answer first. You must not have read the whole scenario Horshack. Your score so far: C-

Love,

Mr. Kotter

[wraftery 1,275]

Yes, I taught Fire Behavior for maybe 15 yrs for proby school. Good spot on the 3 meters. I don't know where the kitchen is for all threee, but doubt it would be on floor 3 or there would be a fire escape (or stairway sprinklers). Floor 2 A/D corner has a modified window that was brought up to counter height with a vent pipe above. I bet there's a kitchen sink behind it.

By the slope, I would say a basement apt is a good bet. Also, I grew up in West New Rochelle and every other house had a basement kitchen to cook the 7 fishes for Xmas.

Yes Loo I photoshopped a half window, out of line with the others. Not a good job of photoshop, but the window there is a clue too.

Where are the people? Somebody called this in and we probably go look for them. This could turn into the search from hell, needing extra trucks.

Keep it going, the pic tells alot more.

[Guest Firediver]

Who called this in? What day is it ? and what time of day? early morning/evening? porch light is still on and some of the shades are down but street light is off.

Chief, this area looks familiar!

Edited September 19, 2010 by Firediver

[wraftery 1,275]

Who called this in? What day is it ? and what time of day? early morning/evening? porch light is still on and some of the shades are down but street light is off.

Chief, this area looks familiar!

Should be familiar to you, firediver. Tell me about the smaller window that doesn't line up with the rest.

I also see you are touching upon the Tall Cow.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Yes, I taught Fire Behavior for maybe 15 yrs for proby school. Good spot on the 3 meters. I don't know where the kitchen is for all threee, but doubt it would be on floor 3 or there would be a fire escape (or stairway sprinklers). Floor 2 A/D corner has a modified window that was brought up to counter height with a vent pipe above. I bet there's a kitchen sink behind it.

By the slope, I would say a basement apt is a good bet. Also, I grew up in West New Rochelle and every other house had a basement kitchen to cook the 7 fishes for Xmas.

Yes Loo I photoshopped a half window, out of line with the others. Not a good job of photoshop, but the window there is a clue too.

Where are the people? Somebody called this in and we probably go look for them. This could turn into the search from hell, needing extra trucks.

Keep it going, the pic tells alot more.

Extra Trucks how about the first one showing up?

[wraftery 1,275]

Extra Trucks how about the first one showing up?

Let's put that on our "too do" list. A 360deg walkaround would tell us much, but I didn't want to go into the guy's back yard for Pics.

Put your saw down too, by the time you get it started, Mother nature will have given you an excellent primary vent hole.

Aerials vs.wires: If you can put your turntable directly under the wires or as close to "under" as you can get. your chances of contacting the wires is lower.

The rule still stands: Truck gets the front of the Building even if you are going to use its people for search.

Don't be afraid to call for help SOON...the guy from P'keepsie mentioned he's been to our academy. how many graduates do you figure there are betweeen the Sound and P'keep? I bet they would come help you in a heartbeat. BUT ya gotta call

Edited September 19, 2010 by wraftery

[Guest Firediver]

Since that window is on same side as front door my first thought would be the stair landing between the floors, its in a good location and it does not always have to be a full window. Multi fam that I have been in usually first floor is one and two on the 2nd floor with one of the apts having access to the 3rd floor/attic. First guess would be 2nd floor front apt kitchen (1-4 exposure)fire with extension to 3rd floor. Pot was left on the stove and everybody is at 9am mass at Holy Family. 1st floor may not even have a clue (we know all batteries are changed in smoke detectors,right?) Just a WAG from me pulling up.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Firediver

[wraftery 1,275]

Since that window is on same side as front door my first thought would be the stair landing between the floors, its in a good location and it does not always have to be a full window. Multi fam that I have been in usually first floor is one and two on the 2nd floor with one of the apts having access to the 3rd floor/attic. First guess would be 2nd floor front apt kitchen (1-4 exposure)fire with extension to 3rd floor. Pot was left on the stove and everybody is at 9am mass at Holy Family. 1st floor may not even have a clue (we know all batteries are changed in smoke detectors,right?) Just a WAG!

That's what I was waiting for on the stairwell landing window. Often they are stained glass, a good clue. I would estimate by the smoke and fire showing that the frie is the 2fl kitchen. Howveer it could be in the basement apt and doing the balloon frame thing of skipping from basement to attic.

If you are going for the 2 fl kitchen, let's get a line to the 1fl basement door to keep the stairway tenable just in case the fire is down there. (here in Va Beach/Chesapeake there are only a few basements. They put them in preplans)

[Guest Firediver]

Now once we got a crew through the front door, if there was a light smoke condition there and got thicker on the way up (balloon frame) my thought would change to basement job.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Firediver

[jack10562 414]

It looks like the front was at one time an open, two story porch. Now it's enclosed, possibly housing a bedroom or two.

The third floor window on D looks open but there is no smoke.

[dillondotcom 16]

You could pull a truck into that driveway on the exp 4 side and get an aerial up to that dormer.

[nwpfd390 2]

Just because there are three floors showing doesn't mean all floors are apartments looks like there's probably a basement apartment, I'm thinking it's balloon as said before, As far as the half window, staircase maybe, And the ariel in that drive way, looks like there might be another cable wire going over it

[Guest Firediver]

looks like there's probably a basement apartment

What do you see that makes you say that there "probably" is a basement apt? Right off I do not see anything but please share what you do see with respect to the basement apt. Also, did you mean "cable" wire as in TV? If it is a cable TV wire those come down easy should not be a hazard to the truck.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Firediver

[wraftery 1,275]

You could pull a truck into that driveway on the exp 4 side and get an aerial up to that dormer.

Will that driveway take 65,000lbs? Will the outriggers be on terra firma? Tipping over is sure to make Eyewitness news. You got a lot of 'splainin to do, Lucy.

Think that driveway position out really well before you do it. Be able to explain your actions.

Edited September 20, 2010 by wraftery

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

What do you see that makes you say that there "probably" is a basement apt? Right off I do not see anything but please share what you do see with respect to the basement apt. Also, did you mean "cable" wire as in TV? If it is a cable TV wire those come down easy should not be a hazard to the truck.

Its hard to tell based on the angle of the photo, but if you look at the slope of the ground relative to the wall, height of the windows on the first floor relative to the ground, and the slope of the driveway in the bottom right corner it looks like the backyard slopes down from the A side to the C side. If that actually is the case, then I would be willing to bet if there is enough room for a door in the back to go outside it would be on the ground level. If that is the case then it is entirely possible that that area could have been converted into an occupied basement apartment which would have a kitchen. Like mentioned above, it doesn't have to be a full apartment to have its own kitchen.

Could be one unit in the basement, one unit on the first floor and one unit on the second floor attic storage area. It is very possible the top attic section is occupied as well due to the size of windows and attic area itself, but there is just as much saying yes as no. I have been in buildings very similar to the one pictured, some have furnished, livable attic areas, others have insulation, rafters and floorboards as the only finishings.

Based on A side windows, apparent age of dwelling, neighborhood and location this is most likely a balloon framed OMD. OMD due to the aforementioned multiple utility meters. In being balloon framed, the fire could have very easily started as a kitchen fire in the basement, travel to the attic, seated and then begin to eat the house from the bottom and from the top.

Edited September 20, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[Alpinerunner 61]

I haven't seen anyone comment on the smoke coming from the chimney in the summer. We have smoke from the 3rd floor and smoke from the chimey. Due to the location of the chimney, it's doubtful that the fireplae is on the 3rd floor. My guess is fire on the first floor, with smoke venting through the fireplace, and fire extending up the balloon frame to the attic/third floor and showing out the window

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I haven't seen anyone comment on the smoke coming from the chimney in the summer. We have smoke from the 3rd floor and smoke from the chimey. Due to the location of the chimney, it's doubtful that the fireplae is on the 3rd floor. My guess is fire on the first floor, with smoke venting through the fireplace, and fire extending up the balloon frame to the attic/third floor and showing out the window

Its hard to tell if the smoke is from the chimney or from the C side gable...it is possible that the smoke is emanating from either the C side gable like on the A side, a gable vent or eaves/soffit and not the chimney.

[x129K 1,393]

Dibs on the roof cut....LOL

[Guest Firediver]

From this picture, how can you tell what the neighborhood and area is like if you only see partials of 2 houses? again from this picture what you see as you come into the block. He made it sound like he saw something tell tale that gave it away not speculation. I made a comment because I know exactly where this house is and the neighborhood. What we cant see is another Front door on the 1-2 corner and yes the driveway for this house does slope down. Now this would change things as we saw more of this MD.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Firediver

[wraftery 1,275]

I haven't seen anyone comment on the smoke coming from the chimney in the summer. We have smoke from the 3rd floor and smoke from the chimey. Due to the location of the chimney, it's doubtful that the fireplae is on the 3rd floor. My guess is fire on the first floor, with smoke venting through the fireplace, and fire extending up the balloon frame to the attic/third floor and showing out the window

I didn't draw in any chimney smoke

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

From this picture, how can you tell what the neighborhood and area is like if you only see partials of 2 houses? again from this picture what you see as you come into the block. I made a comment because I know exactly where this house is and the neighborhood. What we cant see is another Front door on the 1-2 corner and yes the driveway for this house does slope down. Now this would change things as we saw more of this MD.

I am only making assumptions on like you said two partial sides of buildings but I think I am some what knowledgeable about some of this area. The buildings shown look a lot like the buildings that surround my apartment in Burlington, VT. Mostly Victorian, Queen Anne, Gable, Bay and Gable, Octagon, even colonial houses mostly Type 4 Heavy Timber building construction, balloon framed houses built between the 1700's and 1900's. All of them in my area have been subdivided and renovated so that they hold more rooms/apartments to rent to college students. There are some buidings like the one I live in with some prefabricated buildings and light-weights truss construction where houses have been knocked down or lots have been developed but for the most part, the residences are mostly older buildings.

The area depicted in this photo could be just as easily the cross of South Willard St. and Buell St in Burlington, VT as it is whatever cross streets it actually is. My point being this type of construction is very distinctive and very expensive to build new. These building types are usually confined to one or a few, older sections of town where the spirit of the community has been retained. The building in this photo could just as easily be my friends apartment as it is whose ever residence it actually is. Across the street could very easily be a garden-style apartment similar to the one I live in but right next door to that and then the next 15 houses could all be identical to the one in this picture.

Edited September 20, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[Guest Firediver]

I was asking nwpfd what it was that he saw (tell tale sign) in this picture that made him say "probably", I thought it was something I missed from the pic. Good Building Construction re-fresher thanks.

[wraftery 1,275]

It would cost a few bucks to come to NY for pics of sides B and C. Maybe firediver can get them. He's probably figured out where it is.

It can be anywhere in the Northeast,and there might be a basement apt, and if you are pulling up as the 1st due engine, you might not get to see sides B&c until the fire's out.

Here's the deal: You tell the IC what you see, Eng 2 tells the IC about B&C, and nobody has to tell him about the roof. He knows about the roof.

[Guest Firediver]

It would cost a few bucks to come to NY for pics of sides B and C. Maybe firediver can get them. He's probably figured out where it is.

It can be anywhere in the Northeast,and there might be a basement apt, and if you are pulling up as the 1st due engine, you might not get to see sides B&c until the fire's out.

Here's the deal: You tell the IC what you see, Eng 2 tells the IC about B&C, and nobody has to tell him about the roof. He knows about the roof.

Took a ride by today and saw exposure 2 (B side), maybe go back and take some pics tomorrow. Two small windows down towards 2-3 corner and another "front" door to the residence at 1-2 corner. I'll see what I can do. Hey Chief, how does Chief Tobin's grass look these days? I cut it back in HS a few times. Ha Ha!

Edited September 20, 2010 by Firediver