From: 240K Pension for FDNY # 2 Raises Issues

[mricorp 12]

A

Edited December 11, 2010 by mricorp

[CBX4627 114]

Maybe this has something to do with it?

"The second-in-command of the FDNY has retired on a tax-free disability pension worth an estimated $242,000 annually for the rest of his life -- the highest ever awarded to a city firefighter, sources said." NY Post

What's Frank Cruthers' pension have to do with anything???? Do you work for the NY Post? That man worked for the city of NY for 43 years........Although his management style may not have been liked by all, the man deserves EVERY PENNY of that pension!!!!!! He WORKED for it and EARNED it!!!!

Edited December 9, 2010 by CBX4627

[helicopper 1,050]

In this economy, people are especially sensitive to the pensions earned by public employees (at all levels, not just an executive in the largest FD in the world). This is why they're fighting to change the law for such things and Tier 5 was enacted by NYS.

This case is an aberration. There are very VERY few public employees with such large salaries and so many years of service. It causes all sorts of concern but he is entitled to the pension/benefits of someone hired in 1967 and the laws have changed several times since then.

Link to full article

[CFD320 35]

How about people go after the white collar morons who bankrupted the NYS pension system in the first place? The pension system was so flush with cash 10 years ago that all it's assets could have been invested in rock solid zero risk investment products and cash flow itself for 50 years with no further contributions from employees. They were so flush they allowed municipalities to defer payments to the system because they were unnecessary! Problem is that the pension fund managers who make (yes still make) 7 figure salaries plus huge bonus' were over-aggressive with THE MONEY PARTICIPANTS IN THE NYS PENSION SYSTEM CONTRIBUTED and BLEW BILLIONS OF THEIR DOLLARS. Now these same people that lost a ton of our money vilify the civil servant as the bad guys... Civil servants didn't create this problem, which now rests squarely on the backs of NYS tax payers. Blame the guy in the monkey suite, not the bunker pants...

Five years ago when everybody and their brother was buying a McMansion was anyone jealous of the paycheck a fireman earned?

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Just curious on a day like today, with the Zadroga bill up on the Capital, this post was chosen to start it's own thread? Who broke that off from the original thread, and did that, and what was the reason?

[Alpinerunner 61]

If he were VP of an equally sized, private corporation, he would be taking in A LOT more.

[lad12derff 283]

What's Frank Cruthers' pension have to do with anything???? Do you work for the NY Post? That man worked for the city of NY for 43 years........Although his management style may not have been liked by all, the man deserves EVERY PENNY of that pension!!!!!! He WORKED for it and EARNED it!!!!

I think the problem would be the 3/4 tax free disability pension he received after retiring as C.O.D. I do not know when the injury happened nor do I care. You can keep your head buried in the sand or you can pull it out and see that headlines like this will ruin what you and I are still working for. A decent pension for myself and my family.

[helicopper 1,050]

Just curious on a day like today, with the Zadroga bill up on the Capital, this post was chosen to start it's own thread? Who broke that off from the original thread, and did that, and what was the reason?

This post was in a thread on a different subject and split off as its own topic so as not to derail the original thread.

I think I'm missing the connection between this and Zadroga too.

[Guest jcnyc]

He was tier 1 tax free or not it was going to be big anyway. My Chief has 43 years too, he loses so much money coming to work, like my whole pay check!

[mricorp 12]

This post was in a thread on a different subject and split off as its own topic so as not to derail the original thread.

I think I'm missing the connection between this and Zadroga too.

This site continues to amaze me. I don't know how anyone has the right to remove my post and move it to its own thread where it is being taken completely out of context. The original post was in response FDNY budget cuts. It said nothing derogatory nor was offensive in any way. It simply asked a question that maybe this is another reason why there are fiscal problems in the city.

I did not question if he deserved it or anything else. I just wonder how a government like NYC can survive when it is paying out disability pensions (and a $300k one time payout for unused sick time) of that magnitude for civil servants?

It is not a bash on anyone or anything. I am simply asking a question and this post should have been left where it was.

[mricorp 12]

Instead of deleting my posts explaining what I said originally why not delete the entire thread so people don't continue to take what I said out of context.

If you are going to continue to delete posts based on your own opinions at will you should not have any part in such a site and you probably should move to Iran or somewhere else that censors free speech.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

This site continues to amaze me. I don't know how anyone has the right to remove my post and move it to its own thread where it is being taken completely out of context. The original post was in response FDNY budget cuts. It said nothing derogatory nor was offensive in any way. It simply asked a question that maybe this is another reason why there are fiscal problems in the city.

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=38453

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

Welcome to EMTBravo Forums. Please read the rules.

[16fire5 693]

How about people go after the white collar morons who bankrupted the NYS pension system in the first place?

Excellent post with the exception of the above part. It's not bankrupt by any stretch.

[JBE 328]

Instead of deleting my posts explaining what I said originally why not delete the entire thread so people don't continue to take what I said out of context.

If you are going to continue to delete posts based on your own opinions at will you should not have any part in such a site and you probably should move to Iran or somewhere else that censors free speech.

It's their site, they make the rules. Number 2, if it was not in the context of the discussion, they had every right to move it and branch out into another thread. I have been on this site for something like 6 years and I have had my issues with the people that run it. I don't agree with a lot of stuff that goes on here, but this one they got right. You got beef?? Bring it up in private.

[mricorp 12]

It's their site, they make the rules. Number 2, if it was not in the context of the discussion, they had every right to move it and branch out into another thread. I have been on this site for something like 6 years and I have had my issues with the people that run it. I don't agree with a lot of stuff that goes on here, but this one they got right. You got beef?? Bring it up in private.

If they do not like what I say then delete it entirely. They have no right to separate it out to another thread where it was not meant to be.

I cannot take it up "in private" if the threat that is using my words in a way they weren't meant to be used is still up.

While I understand this is their site, they put it out there and the purpose of forums such as this is supposed to be to discuss the issue from ALL perspectives. The fact that they delete, or move, everything they don't like or agree with is a disgrace. After all we live in the United States, not China.

[helicopper 1,050]

If they do not like what I say then delete it entirely. They have no right to separate it out to another thread where it was not meant to be.

I cannot take it up "in private" if the threat that is using my words in a way they weren't meant to be used is still up.

While I understand this is their site, they put it out there and the purpose of forums such as this is supposed to be to discuss the issue from ALL perspectives. The fact that they delete, or move, everything they don't like or agree with is a disgrace. After all we live in the United States, not China.

Your opinion has been noted. While you contend your post is being taken out of context, discussions about public employee pensions are a major issue right now and have been/are being discussed in an array of forums so it is entirely appropriate to discuss it here. That is one reason it was not deleted. It didn't violate forum rules so that's another reason that it wasn't deleted. Given that your post was relevant, timely, and within forum guidelines it was not deleted so your cry of censorship is patently absurd. You can absolutely discuss an issue from all perspectives and the staff does not delete content "that they don't like". Moving your post had nothing to do with the content "not being liked", it had to do with keeping threads on topic as the hijacking of threads has been a long-standing issue that most members don't like.

Regarding your post being moved from the thread about closing companies in the FDNY, the pension of one FDNY administrator has nothing to do with the planned closing of 20 or so companies at night. As such, it didn't belong in that thread and was moved to its own in its entirety. Had it been deleted you'd still be accusing the staff of censorship so it really is a no-win situation for EMTBravo.

You most certainly can take it up in private. Forum guidelines dictate that members with problems or issues shall use e-mail or the PM system to discuss it with staff. You've made no such effort and seem intent on criticizing the staff and the site here instead. That is inappropriate; you have an issue, use appropriate channels to report it and engage the staff so a resolution can be reached. Since you are intent on discussing it here, I'll respond to your complaint here: If you feel that your post is being taken out of context, edit it to add the context you feel is missing. Put in a line that says, "the thread on company closures got me thinking that things like this may be why they're doing it" or words to that effect. Tie the two together so your point is clear. Many people, myself included, have done that when they have a point or question that is not germane to the original discussion.

Finally you need to consider what the job of a MODERATOR is. It is to moderate or find a middle ground that is acceptable to as many people as possible. This will not always result in a unanimous agreement but the staff tries very hard to be objective and not take a position on one side or another. Your accusation to the contrary is unfair and undeserved.

You've aired your complaint and the staff has responded (twice now). In fairness, any further discussion on the topic must be conducted via PM or e-mail.

Thank you and enjoy your weekend.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

My oh my how the times they have a-changed. First thing, I personally want to give the original poster a pass (just my opinion) for the way this thing got broken out into a new topic. I admit he did overreact to what was done, but I personally understand his point. I also understand the moderators point, so lets let it go everybody? There's more important things going on right now than to bicker over how this became it's own thread.

But now that it is, let's take a look at what happened. The chief in question, it's my understanding he wasn't the most popular of chiefs, but who ever is? He put basically his whole life into an organization of 10,000, and rose to the top. But because we are all so conditioned to think firefighting/policing/EMSing are SERVANT careers, it's done for free in so many places too, etc., it brings peoples' blood to boiling when they read something like this.

Yet the payouts to the bankers who have made such a mess of the economy; nobody blinks when they see 50 million dollars, 20 million dollars to this or that executive of an investment bank. We are conditioned to accept the fact that bankers make huge money, but somehow firefighters should be "kept as servants."

The pension costs are going up for the NYCP&FPS (different from the state) because of how many 9/11 ailments the Brothers are contracting. The FDNY does breathing tests. If you can't pass it, you're out. So, the city has to pay for the additional costs. and is that so much to ask for the sacrifices the FDNY members have made since 9/11? How many of you personally know a Brother with 9/11 related illness? I happen to know two.

You know what Zadroga is about from an FDNY member's standpoint? It's about those sick members wanting to see to it that their wives continue to get their pensions if their ailments turn into cancer and they die.

Think about that.

Is that so greedy? Is it so greedy that a chief who served over 40 years of his life, probably had more than his fair share of risky moments during his career, probably saved a few lives along the way, which is more than you can say about the banker walking out the door with a 20 million dollar severance package, that he gets a quarter million a year?

Why the outrage? Why have so many forgotten so quickly? In the aftermath of 9/11, there were the famous people out there talking about how the FDNY was going to get better pay and compensation going forward. You know what Rudy gave them in the two years after 9/11? ZERO and ZERO percent contract. Where did the talking heads go? They had their moment in the spotlight, on the deaths of hundreds of Brothers backs, and where did they go? What did they accomplish? Where are they now when the FDNY needs them badly?

They want the Engine officers to start doling out tickets for car fires and accidents. They are going to be trained in A.I. They are going to wind up in courts in the middle of battles.

And yet, the department readies plans to shutter and brown out companies at night.

Where did the RESPECT go? Time.......leads people to forget. And then add in an anti-union rag like the NY POST, making a big deal about the chief, enraging people against the fire department. Nice job Mr. Murdoch, now please return to the Land Down Under from which you came and belong.

Listen guys and gals, the working class people in this country are under attack. I posted a link here recently showing the average payouts from the NYSP&FRS. It's NOWHERES near what this city chief is making. The State fund is 107 percent funded right now, the healthiest in the country. Good planning, now just watch your politicians don't go and screw with that, which is what they are trying to do.

Whenever politicians see money sitting there, set aside and invested for the working people, they can't resist trying to get their greedy little hands on it. Well hands off the pension system, and you know what? New York city residents are going to have to PAY UP for the pensions that the Brothers need, especially the sick ones. It's the least they can do in the aftermath of our country's worst homeland attack in our history. and i'm sure Manhattan real estate is still going to rise past the average million dollars for 600 square feet. They'll survive. The chief gets to live good for his remaining years; why begrudge him? Why vilify him?

NEVER FORGET, we all love to say it, wrap that Flag around our shoulders. Yet do we forget when we vilify some FDNY members because the NY POST says we should?

Think about it.

[Guest jcnyc]

The Zadroga bill is not about pensions. It is about health care for everyone who worked at Ground Zero. The main man who leads most of the events is a tradesman that lost a limb from working there. I know way too many guys who have died or are now dying from cancers from that place.

[mricorp 12]

My oh my how the times they have a-changed. First thing, I personally want to give the original poster a pass (just my opinion) for the way this thing got broken out into a new topic. I admit he did overreact to what was done, but I personally understand his point. I also understand the moderators point, so lets let it go everybody? There's more important things going on right now than to bicker over how this became it's own thread.

But now that it is, let's take a look at what happened. The chief in question, it's my understanding he wasn't the most popular of chiefs, but who ever is? He put basically his whole life into an organization of 10,000, and rose to the top. But because we are all so conditioned to think firefighting/policing/EMSing are SERVANT careers, it's done for free in so many places too, etc., it brings peoples' blood to boiling when they read something like this.

Yet the payouts to the bankers who have made such a mess of the economy; nobody blinks when they see 50 million dollars, 20 million dollars to this or that executive of an investment bank. We are conditioned to accept the fact that bankers make huge money, but somehow firefighters should be "kept as servants."

The pension costs are going up for the NYCP&FPS (different from the state) because of how many 9/11 ailments the Brothers are contracting. The FDNY does breathing tests. If you can't pass it, you're out. So, the city has to pay for the additional costs. and is that so much to ask for the sacrifices the FDNY members have made since 9/11? How many of you personally know a Brother with 9/11 related illness? I happen to know two.

You know what Zadroga is about from an FDNY member's standpoint? It's about those sick members wanting to see to it that their wives continue to get their pensions if their ailments turn into cancer and they die.

Think about that.

Is that so greedy? Is it so greedy that a chief who served over 40 years of his life, probably had more than his fair share of risky moments during his career, probably saved a few lives along the way, which is more than you can say about the banker walking out the door with a 20 million dollar severance package, that he gets a quarter million a year?

Why the outrage? Why have so many forgotten so quickly? In the aftermath of 9/11, there were the famous people out there talking about how the FDNY was going to get better pay and compensation going forward. You know what Rudy gave them in the two years after 9/11? ZERO and ZERO percent contract. Where did the talking heads go? They had their moment in the spotlight, on the deaths of hundreds of Brothers backs, and where did they go? What did they accomplish? Where are they now when the FDNY needs them badly?

They want the Engine officers to start doling out tickets for car fires and accidents. They are going to be trained in A.I. They are going to wind up in courts in the middle of battles.

And yet, the department readies plans to shutter and brown out companies at night.

Where did the RESPECT go? Time.......leads people to forget. And then add in an anti-union rag like the NY POST, making a big deal about the chief, enraging people against the fire department. Nice job Mr. Murdoch, now please return to the Land Down Under from which you came and belong.

Listen guys and gals, the working class people in this country are under attack. I posted a link here recently showing the average payouts from the NYSP&FRS. It's NOWHERES near what this city chief is making. The State fund is 107 percent funded right now, the healthiest in the country. Good planning, now just watch your politicians don't go and screw with that, which is what they are trying to do.

Whenever politicians see money sitting there, set aside and invested for the working people, they can't resist trying to get their greedy little hands on it. Well hands off the pension system, and you know what? New York city residents are going to have to PAY UP for the pensions that the Brothers need, especially the sick ones. It's the least they can do in the aftermath of our country's worst homeland attack in our history. and i'm sure Manhattan real estate is still going to rise past the average million dollars for 600 square feet. They'll survive. The chief gets to live good for his remaining years; why begrudge him? Why vilify him?

NEVER FORGET, we all love to say it, wrap that Flag around our shoulders. Yet do we forget when we vilify some FDNY members because the NY POST says we should?

Think about it.

Thanks for your comments and your points are excellent and well put.

I think the issue I was trying to point out is that while I agree that people can be outraged over private sector salaries, bonuses, etc. that is a free market and decided by free market factors. Are many of their actions disturbing, unethical or sometimes even criminal? Absolutely, but the point is that in a capitalist society you cannot limit what a person can make in a free market unless they cross the line of the law.

A lot of people got very stupid over the last decade and there were many people who were able to capitalize on that stupidity. A lot of people, and governments, spent a lot of money they didn't have and that lead us to the mess we are in today.

Which brings me to the point I was raising. When people talk about shuttering firehouses, etc I believe we need to look at all the sins of the past that brought us to that. Isn't this one example? While I understand he had a long career with the FDNY and took his fair share of risk, how is it that he ends up going out on a disability pension for $300k/ year tax free plus a $300k cash payout?

Shouldn't a disability pension be reserved for those who have to leave because they are truly disabled and need the extra money because they are too injured to ever work again? Isn't it for those who have lost the ability to support themselves due to their injury and need the extra income to survive? Does this apply in this case?? If you know this person you know that it does not. He is not disabled in any way and will be free to live many years on a 3/4 pension playing golf and traveling around the world while the taxpayers pay for it and firehouses close because of it.

Do you realize that if he lives another 30 years that is over $9,000,000?? Yes 9 MILLION DOLLARS!!! I don't know many bankers who walk away with that kind of coin.

But whether you agree with it or not is not my point. My point is simply that there is no way a government, big or small, can sustain itself when it has to payout pensions of this magnitude and therefore can be PART of the reason that firehouses may have to close.