LA Firefighters Stop High-Rise Blaze From Spreading

[x635 4,066]

As always, Los Angeles City FD does a great job interfacing their activities to the publc. Here's an article about a major-emergency high rise fire they had last weekend. I particularly like the terminology "airborne engine companies". And how much more seriously they take (and fund and staff) aviation out there.

Firefighters Stop High-Rise Blaze From Spreading

On Sunday, December 12, 2010 at 2:14 PM, 20 Companies of Los Angeles Firefighters, 6 LAFD Rescue Ambulances, 2 Arson Units, 1 Rehab Unit, 1 Hazardous Materials Team, 4 Helicopters, 3 EMS Battalion Captains, 4 Battalion Chief Officer Command Teams, 1 Division Chief Officer Command Team, under the direction of Assistant Chief Daryl Arbuthnott responded to a Major Emergency Structure Fire at 2170 South Century Park East in Century City.

FULL ARTICLE ON THE FIRE:

http://lafd.blogspot.com/2010/12/firefighters-stop-high-rise-blaze-from.html

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Nice work LAFD.

Edited December 15, 2010 by PFDRes47cue

[Guest jcnyc]

What was wrong with the elevators? 20 flights sucks, been there done that. Sounds like a normal Manhattan 10-75.

[x635 4,066]

What was wrong with the elevators?

I believe there is a protocol to not use elevators during a fire until the exact location of the fire and where it has spread is initially determined.

[robert benz 344]

I believe there is a protocol to not use elevators during a fire until the exact location of the fire and where it has spread is initially determined.

dont know what their SOP's are. depending on the location of the reported fire, and there are several ways to help locate it, visual on arrival, dispatch info, alarm panel info, etc. the elevators are most certainly used to gain access to the upper floors, (above 7). Our sops put the first due engine driver as the elevator operator.

We also have in our SOP's how to control the elevator, stopping at least once if you know where you are going, 2 floors below, checking the shaft for smoke or water, etc.

forcible entry tools for the elevator operator in case of...

think about time, you can arrive at the location in minutes, and spend up to 10 just getting into the building, getting an elevator, stopping at selected floors, getting out 2 floors below, walking up and then locating the fire

think how long the fire can spread if you have to walk up 20 flights.

and as a last note if the building is not equiped with firemans service then the elevator isnt used.

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

But it sounds soooo much cooler and heroic to have to climb 20 flights while bearing load of 100lbs of equipment each lol.

Like one brother already stated, typical Manhattan Hi Rise job. No fuss, no fanfare.

[x635 4,066]

OK, I screwed up what I was saying. Here is the official High Rise SOP from LAFD's Operations Manual (in .pdf format):

http://www.lafdtraining.org/ists/books/bk100v0107.pdf

Chapter 7 goes into intense detail on elevator operations.

[Guest jcnyc]

Pretty vague SOP for elevators, said first due makes sure elevator is operational, if it is in the lobby and goes up it works! The elevator room could have water in it? WTF are they talking about! The room would have to have two feet of water in it for it to NOT work!

[TCD0415 26]

Anyone know what an "Airborne Engine Company" is? I can understand the need for aerial re-con from a command standpoint, but "Airborne Engines?" Really ? 4 of them? They must have deep pockets out west.

[JM15 386]

Anyone know what an "Airborne Engine Company" is? I can understand the need for aerial re-con from a command standpoint, but "Airborne Engines?" Really ? 4 of them? They must have deep pockets out west.

I was wondering that also... 4 helicopters?

[Guest jcnyc]

airborne engines are in most likelihood the same as our hirise rescue teams, basically guys ready to go to work from the roof down.

[x635 4,066]

airborne engines are in most likelihood the same as our hirise rescue teams, basically guys ready to go to work from the roof down.

That's exactly what it is. They can also help to evacuate ,and relay images to the Incident Commanders..

Keep in mind, in regards to Aviation, Los Angeles doesn't have the density of Manhattan. It is VERY spread out, with bumper to bumper traffic almost 24 hours a day. They also have a lot of natural disasters, like wildfires, earthquakes, mudslides, etc.

As for the elevator, at what point do you become concerned that it may not be safe to used, and assure that no one is going to get stuck?

[Guest jcnyc]

Elevators have so many fail safes in them that you really don't need to worry about them if they work, they work. In my experience it is very rare for elevators to stop working mid travel, the usual stuck occupied elevator is in a 5-6 story building or in a project. Very rare is it in a well maintained commercial or residential building where people are paying GOOD money to live there. Does it happen that they fail, of course, but it is rare. I find it odd that they put water could be in the elevator room as a reason for not taking it. If you have sprinklers in the building you wont have water up to the 1 foot mark in the elevator room of a hi rise!

[JFLYNN 681]

But it sounds soooo much cooler and heroic to have to climb 20 flights while bearing load of 100lbs of equipment each lol.

Like one brother already stated, typical Manhattan Hi Rise job. No fuss, no fanfare.

I'm just an old tenement Fireman and certainly no expert in hi-rises,but I'm surprised at your statement Bull....does the typical FDNY member in Manhattan respond to fires such as the one described in the article on any kind of a regular (typical( basis?

I actually thought the press release was excellent and served its purpose...getting the attention of the piublic by using somewhat dramatic language and describing in succinct detail what the perpose of each of the units on scene was...in city's such as yours and mine where we are working under the threats of company closures and reduced manning, maybe we could learn a lesson from them, no?

[Guest jcnyc]

Chief, this is a typical manhattan 10-75, these happen all the time. Being one floor from the top negates the need for any additional trucks unless of course you don't have the elevator then you are gonna need some fresh men for the entire job. It was a good press release but did the press pick it up or was it just on the website?

[mfc2257 464]

I'm just an old tenement Fireman and certainly no expert in hi-rises,but I'm surprised at your statement Bull....does the typical FDNY member in Manhattan respond to fires such as the one described in the article on any kind of a regular (typical( basis?

I actually thought the press release was excellent and served its purpose...getting the attention of the piublic by using somewhat dramatic language and describing in succinct detail what the perpose of each of the units on scene was...in city's such as yours and mine where we are working under the threats of company closures and reduced manning, maybe we could learn a lesson from them, no?

Spot on..... Chief Flynn has it right. These guys do a good job of promoting what the FD is doing so that the public can appreciate their work. Everywhere else the public might say "4 helos to fight building fires sounds expensive..." But a department like LA that does a good PR job the folks might say "I feel much safer because the FD uses helos to help us when a building is on fire"

On a smaller side note of PR, I used to have the guys open the bay doors whenever we were working on the apparatus floor so that the public could see what they were paying for and that there were people attending to it (volunteer or career, it doesn't matter)... Even if I was in the station alone, I'd open the two bay doors closest to the officers room while I was doing paperwork (weather permitting).

With cuts due to the economy and other financial drama effecting every aspect of emergency services, PR of any kind is great. This service has become one of a million that are competing for the public's dollars. Market your department like it was a Fortune 500 company so that the public will have you on their mind frequently. There are only so many times that the press is going to show our guys saving lives amidst all the other negative news that is out there.... Make sure your department is taking advantage of every opportunity they can for the public to know that you're there.

[JM15 386]

On a smaller side note of PR, I used to have the guys open the bay doors whenever we were working on the apparatus floor so that the public could see what they were paying for and that there were people attending to it (volunteer or career, it doesn't matter)... Even if I was in the station alone, I'd open the two bay doors closest to the officers room while I was doing paperwork (weather permitting).

I like this idea a lot.. Whenever I am at the firehouse doing rig checks or whatever I like to have the doors open when we are around. It is great PR people stop in pretty frequently. Usually for directions, but they are always grateful.

[CFD320 35]

Great press release put out by LAFD....Good job by the brothers, the fire is out and nobody got hurt.

Imagine if FDNY put out a press release like this for every 10-77, we would need a lot more staffing at the press office.

[JFLYNN 681]

Chief, this is a typical manhattan 10-75, these happen all the time. Being one floor from the top negates the need for any additional trucks unless of course you don't have the elevator then you are gonna need some fresh men for the entire job. It was a good press release but did the press pick it up or was it just on the website?

Wouldn't this be a 10-76 or 10-77 at least? Point being that FDNY would (correctly) send a lot more resources than for a 10-75 and at least as many as LA did at the fire in question? Do they really happen "all the time"?

How many 10-76 or 10-77's does Manhattan have in a typical year?

***Please note that I am a huge fan of FDNY and have great respect for their (your) members, history and operations. However, oftentimes some of us have a tendency to exagerrate our own experience levels and we can at times be a bit too quick to criticize our brothers.

[helicopper 1,050]

The West Coast takes aviation very seriously and has a much different view on it. The CITY of LA has 25 helicopters, 17 in the PD, six in the FD, and two in the Department of Water and Power. On the PD side, they have mastered the use of aviation as a force multiplier and deterrent and their sucess is noted around the world. The use of helicopters is part of their culture and while budgets are tight even there, they justify their use with jobs such as this one.

It should also be noted that every building over six stories in the City of LA is required by code to have a rooftop helipad. Remember, they are in earthquake country.

I think everyone can take a lesson from the article and recognize the benefit of proactive, professional public relations.

[Guest jcnyc]

It could be either a 76 or a 77 but it would be doubtful only because of the fact that you need those assignments to search the upper floors, and since in this instance it is one floor below the top floor you don't really need a total of 5 trucks to respond. I was always under the impression if it was less than 5 floors from the top you should have no problem with getting by with the all hands assignment with an extra engine and truck as a precaution.

[ACEast 0]

It could be either a 76 or a 77 but it would be doubtful only because of the fact that you need those assignments to search the upper floors, and since in this instance it is one floor below the top floor you don't really need a total of 5 trucks to respond. I was always under the impression if it was less than 5 floors from the top you should have no problem with getting by with the all hands assignment with an extra engine and truck as a precaution.

Again, I'm just a tenement Fireman with extremely limited hi-rise experience. I agree with your notion that a fire one floor below the top floor would most likely need a lot less trucks than for a fire which is numerous floors below the top floor. Help me to understand though...if FDNY pulls up to a hi-rise fire with fire showing from windows on the 20th floor of a 21 story building, are you saying that this would be only an all hands assignment? My assumption was that this would not only be an automatic 10-76 or 10-77 but that it would most likely be an automatic 2nd alarm as well?

This is an area where most of us in the fire service have limited real world expertise. My knowledge of hi-rise firefighting is gleaned almost entirely from reading and seminars (including reading all that FDNY has to offer on the subject).

In Yonkers, with our limited manpower, I believe this would go immediately to a second alarm, and probably very quickly to a third...any fire on the 20th floor has the potential to be wind driven / pressurized...potential for problems with elevators, water supply, reverse stack effect, etc., etc., and this is not to mention that we shouldn't assume that if fire is showing on the 20th floor from the street that is the location of the main body of the fire. Of course, comparing "alarms" from one department to another is apples to oranges, but I'm really surprised to hear an FDNY member make this all sound so simple and routine.

[Guest jcnyc]

It really depends on the chief and the time of day. Up in the 'hood' it would be probably just an all hands, down town it would probably be a 10-77, because of traffic you need to know that the help is on the road cause it wont be there quick! My friends that work downtown would have no idea how easier life would be for them if they just had tenements to deal with. But the guys in hi-rise manhattan know this like the back of their hand.

[Guest jcnyc]

Also failed to add they have taught us all the signs to look for if its wind driven, and if its wind driven that would I hope cause the chief to transmit the next higher alarm.