State Releases Reports on Tarrytown Manhole Deaths

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'm pretty sure that there is no stipulation that this training has to be done by OFPC or any other particular entity......... Of course, you wont get any state certificates - but that's not what this is about.

There is no stipulation that the training comes from OFPC or DES. In fact the law says the EMPLOYEER (read your FD) must certify the employees (read ff's) and any OSHA required training must include the dept. policies (which OFPC, DES or any other outside agency can not teach). This holds true for ALL OSHA mandated training: Respiratory Protection, Bloodborne Pathogens, PPE, Hazmat, Trench Rescue, Confined Space, Fire Brigade, etc.

The only exception to this is if you work for OFPC or DES (as a responder).

If you want to use OFPC or DES to get the state certificate, thats fine (not a bad idea actually), but you then must perform an inhouse training/evaluation to actually certify.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Providing members the basic Confined Space & Awareness Safety program is almost impossible in Westchester County. How often have you even seen this course offered at WCDES? NOT NEARLY ENOUGH!

I agree its not often enough, but its the local FD's responsability to provide it. In the case of Confined Space it was law for almost 8 years before NYS even started to offer it, but local FD's were still legally obligated to provided it. And it was available thru private training companies.

The second blow came a couple of weeks ago, when DES pulled the plug on using our firehouse as one of their satellite training facilities - citing "lack of attendance.".......Who cares if 6 people show up to a class? That's 6 people that benefit from this training!.....As a Training Officer / Instructor myself, if I have one student, I am giving them my time. AND I DO IT FOR FREE!

It unfortinate that the county does not have unlimited resources, but they only have the ability to pay for X amount of training and if they do not maintain a minimum class size then, there will not be enough classes in some other area. Its going to get much worst next year as the budget is being cut. Its great that you do it for free, but you are one of very few in a county with 1,000's of firefighters.

I KNOW I will catch s*** for saying this, but I am very displeased with the way this county operates. People can say I am over-reacting or not seeing the big picture, but the proof is in the ink. If the classes WE ALL NEED are not offered often enough, then how the hell are any of us going to ever meet or come close to meeting those requirements that apply to us?

The law has always required that the department is responsable for providing the training. In fact career ff's in Westchester do not recieve free training from WCDES. The career academy bills each dept. about $4,000 per student, then also requires us to provide support, by sending our instructors at our cost, to teach the course. All depts are mandated to provide the training and we actually have to pay for it.

If a career FD is entitled to have an MTO, why can't volunteer departments? Don't the Instructors require the same training as the career guys? We have half a dozen guys whom have completed FSI-1 and have extensive training and experience themselves. Three of our guys are even certified by NYS to teach THIER PROGRAMS - BUT THEY CAN'T. What sense does that make?

You are 110% correct. It makes no sense and needs to change. Maybe FASNY can lobby the state to change this.

Sorry for ranting and steering away from the original topic. But in defense of the TFD and almost all of us other volunteer FDs in Westchester - HOW THE F*** CAN WE EVER BE EXPECTED TO MEET OSHA/NFPA/ Other REGULATIONS WHEN THE PROGRAMS AREN'T OFFERED A FRACTION OF HOW OFTEN THEY SHOULD BE?

You can never meet OSHA by relying on OFPC or WCDES. OSHA requires that the dept provides the training not an outside agency.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Everbody can read the OSHA Standards and become "experts".

If it was that easy their should be a whole lot more experts.

OSHA is really not that complicated. They create a lot of work/regulations/paper to create an awareness. The reasonable assumption is that when you have an awareness of the hazards, you will be able to be prepared to mitigate those hazards and perform your work safely.

Well said.

The way I read this -----if you do not go into a confined space, you do not need a rescue team.

So how do you go after the kid who climbs in?

What about the DPW worker who goes into one? If he works for the same municipality someone in the municipality must be a team.

We figured out in 1994 that it was $40,000 cheaper for the FD to have the team than DPW, just by not having to meet the respiratory standard for DPW to wear SCBA/SBA.

[Bnechis 3,961]

or firefighting, what are the requirements to identify, specifically, the confined space hazards in our response areas?

Unless every confined space in every building is identified and planned for, no interior firefighting should take place?

Interesting question

OSHA has never answered this question. Except by applying the definition of a permit required confined space:

1910.146(b)Definitions.

"Confined space" means a space that:

(1) Is large enough and so configured that an employee can bodily enter and perform assigned work; and

(2) Has limited or restricted means for entry or exit (for example, tanks, vessels, silos, storage bins, hoppers, vaults, and pits are spaces that may have limited means of entry.); and

(3) Is not designed for continuous employee occupancy.

"Permit-required confined space (permit space)" means a confined space that has one or more of the following characteristics:

(1) Contains or has a potential to contain a hazardous atmosphere;

(2) Contains a material that has the potential for engulfing an entrant;

(3) Has an internal configuration such that an entrant could be trapped or asphyxiated by inwardly converging walls or by a floor which slopes downward and tapers to a smaller cross-section; or

(4) Contains any other recognized serious safety or health hazard.

So in affect, attic's (with out a normal stairs to walk in) and crawl spaces are confined spaces by definition. And if there is a fire or IDLH atmosphere it can be classified as permit required. Generally, I do not believe that anyone would actually classify a confined space as a permit required one during a fire (including OSHA/PESH). But technically it is and our members should be trained to understand the hazards.

[jack10562 414]

A lot of good information is being exchanged here. Special Thanks to Capt. Bnechis for sharing his expertise.

Hopefully everyone can grasp how vitally important understanding and implementing the OSHA standards are and can go back and evaluate how well or poorly their own programs are functioning.

If you're not sure how to do this, there are professional outfits that can help or do it for you. You don't want an incident report investigation identifying your shortcomings and failures, after the fact. Then it's too late.

Unfortunately as a result of this catastrophe, Tarrytown is discovering that they were woefully unprepared in the worst possible way imaginable.

[jack10562 414]

A personal word to our Brother and Sister Tarrytown responders:

Keep your chin up through all this. You will emerge from this tragedy stronger, and more resolute than ever before.

[robert benz 344]

Providing members the basic Confined Space & Awareness Safety program is almost impossible in Westchester County. How often have you even seen this course offered at WCDES? NOT NEARLY ENOUGH!

For the past few years, one of our members was granted a status of "Supplemental CFI" which allowed him to teach NYS OFPC courses in house for us. During this time, we managed to provide the CSAS class several times, HMFRO Original & Annual Refresher, Scene Support Ops and other courses. I don't have the exact nummbers in front of me, but we GREATLY BENEFITED FROM THIS!

A few months back, WCDES informed our Instructor that he could no longer do this, as it was only a "trial period" and they didn't want to continue it. To say that this is a major blow to our well-documented and repeatedly proven operations is an understatement. The second blow came a couple of weeks ago, when DES pulled the plug on using our firehouse as one of their satellite training facilities - citing "lack of attendance." Not for nothing, nobody ever bothered to A: advertise our firehouse as a satellite, B: Never took the time to explain to us (THE CHIEFS) what we needed to do to host classes here and C: Who cares if 6 people show up to a class? That's 6 people that benefit from this training!

As a Training Officer / Instructor myself, if I have one student, I am giving them my time. AND I DO IT FOR FREE!

I KNOW I will catch s*** for saying this, but I am very displeased with the way this county operates. People can say I am over-reacting or not seeing the big picture, but the proof is in the ink. If the classes WE ALL NEED are not offered often enough, then how the hell are any of us going to ever meet or come close to meeting those requirements that apply to us?

If a career FD is entitled to have an MTO, why can't volunteer departments? Don't the Instructors require the same training as the career guys? We have half a dozen guys whom have completed FSI-1 and have extensive training and experience themselves. Three of our guys are even certified by NYS to teach THIER PROGRAMS - BUT THEY CAN'T. What sense does that make?

Sorry for ranting and steering away from the original topic. But in defense of the TFD and almost all of us other volunteer FDs in Westchester - HOW THE F*** CAN WE EVER BE EXPECTED TO MEET OSHA/NFPA/ Other REGULATIONS WHEN THE PROGRAMS AREN'T OFFERED A FRACTION OF HOW OFTEN THEY SHOULD BE?

/Rant

John not to make this too personal, but you fired a shot and now I want to reply, I personaly know of at least 3 confined space awareness classes this year with 2 taught myself in the last month, no students from Croton fd in the classes, both had openings. If you are having problems with the way DES is handling training, or your situation in Croton, the people to talk to work in the same building as you do.

As for class / student size, OFPC sets the limits for all of their classes, both minimum and if needed maximum. They have to approve any classes submitted for teaching, if it is an State course. Not enought students register the class is to be cancelled.

Here is a list of training offered by Westchester this month alone

missing are the 2 confined space awareness classes and a Trench awareness class already completed

Date Posted

Class Details

Description / Location

Start Date

Status

Register

11/01/10 10-136 Incident Safety Officer - Katonah Satellite 12/09/10 Running Running

11/12/10 10-138 Firefighter I with Survival 12/02/10 Running Running

12/02/10 10-142 Firefighter I - DAYTIME 12/20/10 Closed Closed

12/02/10 10-143 Firefighter Search and Assist Team - DAYTIME 12/27/10 Closed Closed

12/02/10 10-144 The Operational Challenges of Garden Apartment Complexes - DAYTIME - County 12/20/10 Open Register

12/02/10 10-145 The Operational Challenges of Garden Apartment Complexes - County 12/20/10 Open Register

12/02/10 11-01 Fire Officer I 01/04/11 Closed Closed

12/02/10 11-02 Fire Behavior and Arson Awareness 01/05/11 Open Register

12/02/10 11-03 Intro to Fire Officer - Katonah Satellite 01/13/11 Open Register

12/02/10 11-04 Principles of Instruction - Mamaroneck Satellite 01/22/11 Open Register

12/02/10 11-05 Think Like an Incident Commander - DAYTIME - County 01/10/11 Open Register

12/02/10 11-06 Thermal Imaging Camera Training - County 01/22/11 Closed Closed

12/07/10 11-07 Principles of Building Construction: Combustibles 01/11/11 Open Register

12/14/10 11-08 Incident Safety Officer 02/01/11 Open Register

12/07/10 11-09 Fire Police - Katonah Satelite 02/03/11 Open Register

12/14/10 11-10 Principles of Building Construction: Noncombustibles 01/18/11 Open Register

12/15/10 11-11 Thermal Imaging Camera Training - DAYTIME 01/05/11 Open Register

12/15/10 11-12 Ice/Wold Water Rescue - Technician Level 02/12/11 Open

To register please see instructions on bulletin and use page 2-3 for submission

12/15/10 11-13E BLS CME Series: Hypothermia and Cold Injury (DAY) 01/12/11 Open Register

12/15/10 11-14E BLS CME Series: Hypothermia and Cold Injury (EVE) 01/12/11 Open Register

12/17/10 11-15 Firefighter I with Survival 01/20/11 Open Register

12/17/10 11-16 Fire Officer I 02/01/11 Open Register

12/17/10 11-17 Scene Support Operations 01/26/11 Open Register

Feature

..Copyright 2010 Westchestergov.com .

[loopy31 12]

John,

If you think the training is so bad in Westchester, take a look at the attached website.

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/fire/pdfs/training/outreachtrngsched.pdf

This is all the OFPC training offered throughout the state of NY listed by County. Westchester provides more training than almost every other County in the State of NY. In my opinion, we are awfully luck to get all the training we do in Westchester. I think DES is doing a good job with producing all of the training that they do. They also provide a lot of County developed courses that these other counties do not have the monies to provide. It sounds like your members don't want to drive to Valhalla to take the training, that they will only train if it is held at your facility. That shouldn't be the case.

[helicopper 1,050]

Just a word on the class sizes and locations/numbers of offerings. I am often asked the same questions with regard to courses that I'm involved with instructing. This has absolutely nothing to do with DES or Croton but is rather a general observation on the subject.

It is absolutely essential that some standards be maintained for minimum numbers of students and locations where the course is to be held. I have been asked to teach in locations that are not handicapped accessible, do not adequate space or resources, are remotely located, etc. The responsible agency must insure that requirements like this are met. That is probably not a major issue in most firehouses but the numbers of students is a big issue.

If a sponsoring agency (OFPC, County, SOEM, etc.) is asked to run a class in the ABC department or jurisdiction and they do it, they will then be asked to do it in DEF, GHI, JKL, etc. etc. etc. If they only send 6 students you could wind up with 50 classes for 6 people instead of 10 regional classes for 30 people each. Given our current economic state and budget limitations, it is unreasonable to even entertain running 50 classes instead of 10. Even where instructor salaries are not an issue, it is incredibly demanding on the individual teaching and to ask them to conduct the same course once a week instead of once a month is a huge imposition.

It is almost always more desirable to have multi-agency or multi-disciplinary courses to promote networking and new approaches as well.

Just because you can run a class for 6 people in your firehouse doesn't mean that its the best idea when considering the big picture.

[jrf344 5]

Just a waist of time. Those of you who commented get it. But you guys are not the problem nor the solution. Until there are politicians who have the nuggets to put policies and procedures in place and enforce them especially for minimum standards for training FF's and officers this will go on. Until there are policing agencies that go along with the unfunded mandates of NYS training, NFPA, OSHA, PESH etc. this will go on. Visiting once in a great while for PESH and OSHA is a waist or better yet lets point fingers of why something happened insted of keeping up on people to make sure it does not happen. What a joke. RIP those who are caught in a horrible sytem.

[Bnechis 3,961]

But you guys are not the problem nor the solution. Until there are politicians who have the nuggets to put policies and procedures in place and enforce them especially for minimum standards for training FF's and officers this will go on.

The politicians are not to blame on this one (and thats tough for me to say). NYS has minimum standards for career firefighters, because of the lobbying efforts of the NYSPFF. FASNY has lobbied for decades against minimum standards for volunteers. The politicians have only done what the fire service ask/lobbied for.

Until there are policing agencies that go along with the unfunded mandates of NYS training, NFPA, OSHA, PESH etc. this will go on. Visiting once in a great while for PESH and OSHA is a waist or better yet lets point fingers of why something happened insted of keeping up on people to make sure it does not happen.

How is it unfunded? NYS provides the training at no cost to the firefighters and very minimal cost to volunteer fire depts. (often just a material fee and transportation costs).

It is very disapointing that PESH is so minimal in its ability to push depts forward. I think this case will be the same, but potential litigation may convince communities to do the right thing, mandated or not.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

2/5/11: Tarrytown suspends foreman in manhole deaths:

http://www.lohud.com/article/2010102050337

[helicopper 1,050]

But you guys are not the problem nor the solution. Until there are politicians who have the nuggets to put policies and procedures in place and enforce them especially for minimum standards for training FF's and officers this will go on.

The politicians are not to blame on this one (and thats tough for me to say). NYS has minimum standards for career firefighters, because of the lobbying efforts of the NYSPFF. FASNY has lobbied for decades against minimum standards for volunteers. The politicians have only done what the fire service ask/lobbied for.

Until there are policing agencies that go along with the unfunded mandates of NYS training, NFPA, OSHA, PESH etc. this will go on. Visiting once in a great while for PESH and OSHA is a waist or better yet lets point fingers of why something happened insted of keeping up on people to make sure it does not happen.

How is it unfunded? NYS provides the training at no cost to the firefighters and very minimal cost to volunteer fire depts. (often just a material fee and transportation costs).

It is very disapointing that PESH is so minimal in its ability to push depts forward. I think this case will be the same, but potential litigation may convince communities to do the right thing, mandated or not. The politicians are not to blame on this one (and thats tough for me to say). NYS has minimum standards for career firefighters, because of the lobbying efforts of the NYSPFF. FASNY has lobbied for decades against minimum standards for volunteers. The politicians have only done what the fire service ask/lobbied for.

I'm really surprised that this hasn't generated more discussion.

I have to ask how is training an unfunded mandate? If you want to be a firefighter don't you have to be trained for it? What FF training courses aren't available via the OFPC or County? As for NFPA, meeting their standards isn't a mandate (unless the judge and jury say so) and OSHA training can almost all be completed in-house (except perhaps for some things like physicals and fit-testing) at a minimal expense.

What has FASNY (or other similar organizations) done to improve the conditions for a firefighter in NYS?

(these are questions not accusations - I don't know the answers which is why I'm asking)

[FD7807 59]

Training should be the responsibility and the priority for the individual FD's. Whatever training that cannot be feasiby provided at the WCDES needs to be funded by the local FD/municipality. Before any black tie events are held, or kitchen cabinets bought, or new vehicles are bought the proper training needs to be offered and followed through on. This does not fall on politicians they wouldn't no a fire drill from a cordless drill this falls on the chiefs/training officers but also ultimately it is up to the firefighter himself to make sure he takes the training offered. Don't pass the buck to a politician. Looking for a solution from a politician is like trying to get electricity out of a dead outlet.

[firecapt32 282]

There are many things a fire department can do but one of the first things is has to do is get its house in order. If it wants to be a good fire department not just "a" fire department. set your own standards--you have that power(AHJ)who cares what FASNY says get all your interior members Firefighter one Certified. Make being an Officer a job not a title. Give it responsibilities and conditions and qualifications. Make being a Chief important not just a position to fill or because "its our turn"

Then and only then will you start to become a good fire department. I have said it before good firefighters make good Officers---good officers make good fire chiefs good chiefs make a department good.

dont jump on me--there are many good fire fighters and officers in a lot of departments and a lot of good firefighters and officers are trying to do the right thing. You have to think about the people you protect.you also have to think about who is next to you on a hose line or entering into the fire structure. The most important thing is to get home safely. so if the guy next to you isn't trained or you dont feel safe. You have to make decisions that might effect you for the rest of your life, make them wisely,make them with a clear consicence.

just my thoughts

[DaRock98 76]

There are many things a fire department can do but one of the first things is has to do is get its house in order. If it wants to be a good fire department not just "a" fire department. set your own standards--you have that power(AHJ)who cares what FASNY says get all your interior members Firefighter one Certified. Make being an Officer a job not a title. Give it responsibilities and conditions and qualifications. Make being a Chief important not just a position to fill or because "its our turn"

Capt,

I wish it was that easy! I myself take as many classes as my schedule permits and I am always looking for ways to further my fire education, but it just seems that I am fighting an uphill battle with my department and its members to get others to start taking classes. I would love for them to make higher standards for both firefighters and officers but with the current leadership and membership I don't see that happening anytime soon. Its sad to say I don't see anything changing until something like what happened in Tarrytown happens to us.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Capt,

I wish it was that easy! I myself take as many classes as my schedule permits and I am always looking for ways to further my fire education, but it just seems that I am fighting an uphill battle with my department and its members to get others to start taking classes. I would love for them to make higher standards for both firefighters and officers but with the current leadership and membership I don't see that happening anytime soon. Its sad to say I don't see anything changing until something like what happened in Tarrytown happens to us.

It is very sad to say, but it is true. Too often, department do not make changes until tragedies occur. Being a proactive department is ALMOST unheard of. There are some proactive departments out there, but for the most part it takes, a wife becoming a widow, or kids losing their father or mother for anything to change...it is a real disgrace.