How much leeway do your dispatchers have?

[JBE 328]

Meaning leeway with assignments to incidents, or making relocations, or asking incident commanders what they want?? I'll give you some examples because we are presently getting nickled and dimed for showing initiative.

Last weekend, a city bus comes off the Clearview Expressway and collides with a tractor trailer, a building and a few other vehicles. Rescues 4 and 3 are assigned. As the situation winds down, Rescue 3 takes up and begins to head home. They are special called to a fire due to numerous calls coming into the Queens dispatchers. The supervising dispatcher(not me) is then contacted by one of the brass at HQ wanting to know why this was done.

The regulations state that if the normally assigned Rescue(Or Squad) is not available, the IC must be notified and advise the IC if they want a Rescue(Or Squad). If the request is not made, the nearest available Rescue is assigned upon transmission of the All Hands. When it comes to the Squads, the only exception is if that Squad is operating as an Engine company on the first alarm assignment, then the next up Squad goes on the 10-75. Example: Squad 61 is first or second due to Jacobi and a 10-75 gets dumped, Squad 41 goes.

I understand the need for rules and regulations, but this, IMO was a heads up move, taking initiative. Needless to say, that supervisor will probably be spanked. Never mind the fact that R-3 was about 5 minutes away, and it would have been an easy 20-30 minutes before R-2 got there from Brooklyn.

Next incident, 2nd Alarm out in Staten Island last week. Fire is in a commercial building, 10-75 transmitted, relocators on the road as per SOP. 2nd floor gives way and dumps a number of firefighters down onto the 1st floor. Maydays transmitted, 2nd Alarm transmitted, no 10-66 transmitted, and I'm unsure if the dispatcher prompted the IC to see if they wanted it dumped. Staten Island Dispatchers re-direct two truck companies off of other runs to the fire, and then special call TL-77 to pick up Rescue Collapse Unit 5 and Special Call Rescue 2. I've been told that the supervisor(again, NOT me) is probably going to get spanked for this one as well. Never mind the fact that the additional help can always be turned around if not needed. Never mind the fact that not only me, but a number of my colleagues thought this was a heads up move.

What sorts of latitude, as dispatchers, do you have when it comes to situations when you're gonna have to use your head, and not rely on a piece of paper, or what a Chief from a specific department wants?? I ask this question because over the past few years, some of the things that are normally an FDNY Chiefs responsibility have been placed in the hands of the dispatchers. Setting up staging areas at multiple alarm fires, when unless we are around the corner and can see it, we have no idea what the road conditions might be, Transmitting the 10-76 or 10-77 in a building that meets that criteria as soon as a multiple is transmitted for that building.

I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say. Thank you.

Edited December 20, 2010 by JBE

[JohnnyOV 2]

If i remember correctly from my interviews with FDNY dispatch, the dispatchers are technically the IC of that incident until the first unit arrives on scene... so based off what was told to me, your dispatcher/ supervisor took the information given to them , and proceeded to assign appropriate units off the given information. Sounds like an OK move to me.

From what I understand in Westchester with 60-control, they are not allowed to make any command decisions based off of 911 information, and must take all orders from the IC of the incident. Even if they're getting 30 different 911 calls for people trapped on the 3rd floor of an OMD, with fire out 4 windows on the second floor, the OIC of that incident is responsible for adding or removing units from the assignment. I've heard dispatchers asking/persuading the OIC if he wants an upgraded alarm, or asking if a FASTeam is required etc etc, but never taken control of a situation themselves.

Its also all about the wording the requester is using too. Numerous times I have heard a unit on scene stating they have a working fire, and then dead air. 60 then asks if they want the 10-75 assignment, and the units reply is "yes." In this county unless the transmission of "10-75" is stated, working fire or any other variation will not get you your pre planned assignments.

Maybe its time we allow our dispatchers to make a little bit of command decisions based off of the information that they have. By them advising the incoming units of an updated condition and waiting for a reply, you're delaying the response of your MA companies. Again, this comes down to the "everyone's in charge of their own little kingdom," which I wish we could really get away from.<br>

Edited December 20, 2010 by EMSJunkie712

[Alpinerunner 61]

Can't speak from a dispatchers perspective, but I can say that it's very nice to have dispatch give command reminders. However, in case #1 (fire) it sounds like command wasn't established, and in the second case (collapse) it sounds like command may have been overwhelmed with other operations. I can kind of see why brass would be upset in situation #2 if they didn't TRY to check with command. I imagine they tried and things were too crazy after a collapse + mayday.

Where I volunteer, the dispatchers don't hesitate to recommend things to IC, or special call a unit, and they are usually right.

[antiquefirelt 994]

While I agree that the first scenario, or both truly seem like heads up decision making, we do often have other reasons for not varying from protocols. Though it would seem the call was "obvious" sometimes and I imagine to a far greater extent in a much larger system, sticking to protocols validates them or shows the need for change.

In our case, anytime the dispatcher has a "gray area" they can contact the duty officer or first due IC and tell them what they have, prompting them to make or authorize the decision. Is there no way the dispatcher could call the first due IC and say, "we're getting multiple calls and I have R3 in the area?" Again, I doubt that type of heads up call would get anyone spanked in my system, but the larger the system the more rigid the guidelines tend to be.

Sometimes you have to take the rip and know you made the right call anyway, as long as humans are involved in the equation, no one will agree 100% of the time.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Meaning leeway with assignments to incidents, or making relocations, or asking incident commanders what they want?? I'll give you some examples because we are presently getting nickled and dimed for showing initiative.

Last weekend, a city bus comes off the Clearview Expressway and collides with a tractor trailer, a building and a few other vehicles. Rescues 4 and 3 are assigned. As the situation winds down, Rescue 3 takes up and begins to head home. They are special called to a fire due to numerous calls coming into the Queens dispatchers. The supervising dispatcher(not me) is then contacted by one of the brass at HQ wanting to know why this was done.

The regulations state that if the normally assigned Rescue(Or Squad) is not available, the IC must be notified and advise the IC if they want a Rescue(Or Squad). If the request is not made, the nearest available Rescue is assigned upon transmission of the All Hands. When it comes to the Squads, the only exception is if that Squad is operating as an Engine company on the first alarm assignment, then the next up Squad goes on the 10-75. Example: Squad 61 is first or second due to Jacobi and a 10-75 gets dumped, Squad 41 goes.

I understand the need for rules and regulations, but this, IMO was a heads up move, taking initiative. Needless to say, that supervisor will probably be spanked. Never mind the fact that R-3 was about 5 minutes away, and it would have been an easy 20-30 minutes before R-2 got there from Brooklyn.

Next incident, 2nd Alarm out in Staten Island last week. Fire is in a commercial building, 10-75 transmitted, relocators on the road as per SOP. 2nd floor gives way and dumps a number of firefighters down onto the 1st floor. Maydays transmitted, 2nd Alarm transmitted, no 10-66 transmitted, and I'm unsure if the dispatcher prompted the IC to see if they wanted it dumped. Staten Island Dispatchers re-direct two truck companies off of other runs to the fire, and then special call TL-77 to pick up Rescue Collapse Unit 5 and Special Call Rescue 2. I've been told that the supervisor(again, NOT me) is probably going to get spanked for this one as well. Never mind the fact that the additional help can always be turned around if not needed. Never mind the fact that not only me, but a number of my colleagues thought this was a heads up move.

What sorts of latitude, as dispatchers, do you have when it comes to situations when you're gonna have to use your head, and not rely on a piece of paper, or what a Chief from a specific department wants?? I ask this question because over the past few years, some of the things that are normally an FDNY Chiefs responsibility have been placed in the hands of the dispatchers. Setting up staging areas at multiple alarm fires, when unless we are around the corner and can see it, we have no idea what the road conditions might be, Transmitting the 10-76 or 10-77 in a building that meets that criteria as soon as a multiple is transmitted for that building.

I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say. Thank you.

What a disappointment to hear that there has been a backlash from HQ. Not one person on the street minds responding and being turned around. So what? We all certainly are glad to have all resources headed in, needed or not. Rescue is assigned to every 10-75 in the boro. At the majority of fires their services are not needed. So what? They show up and if the fire is well in hand, they are released. However, it's nice to know that Resc. and the F.A.S.T. truck and extra engines are there IF they are needed, or at least on the way.

A good dispatcher, who knows their boro is an indispensable resource. Sounds like a heads up move to send R-3 to a job because they were around the corner. Someone should get an atta-boy for that.

This is the city trying to keep resources available so it looks like they can make the cuts they're looking to make.

Thanks to the dispatchers for watching out for us out there. Don't let the out-of-touch brass bully you around!

[JBE 328]

Nope, no atta boy for that boss. Believe me, if I could, without killing my career, I would tell the braintrust on the 7th floor what I think.

[Goose 188]

I'm not sure how much flexibility dispatchers at fire control are given in westchester, if any. I believe that every department that is dispatched by them submits run and mutual aid assignments, how much politics and flexibility is built in to those directives is anyone's guess. I think thats where our problems lie...instead of just making everyone go to fire control for dispatching and have them determine the closest units.

[Guest jcnyc]

You can't compare a volunteer agency to a paid one, let alone the biggest and up to this point best manned one in the Country. If you were to send R3 to this job did anyone notify R1 and R2 of this so that they could be repositioned if needed? I don't know why R3 was sent to a box in queens to begin with, why not utilize the SSL's that is what they are for. Now that every Rescue has a collapse unit, the days of R3 going out the door for every ceiling collapse from a water leak are over, luckily for them. The whole issue with volunteers is everyone is always who is stepping on the other, not who is going to benefit from this. The issue of pride always gets in the way, and that hurts the people that need the help. When you look at some places getting dispatched 2 or 3 times for a daytime alarm why not just call the neighboring dept as well.

[Remember585 815]

We have our own policies & procedures, as well as the SOGs from the departments we dispatch that we must follow. Should we have a reason to deviate from one of these, in plain English - we better have a damn good reason for doing it, and be prepared for any questioning or backlash.

Good dispatchers and Supervisors have that ability to know something needs to happen. For example, if a call is coded in EMD as BLS but the dispatcher/call taker has a gut feeling that ALS is warranted, it might get dispatched. The best thing we can do is prompt responding units of info we've received so they hopefully get the wheels going to call for more stuff.

Today, we were responding to a reported kitchen fire. 60 Control notified us that PD was on scene with a working house fire. Being 10-15 seconds away, I called the 10-75 on arrival, but if I was a couple of minutes out, I would of made that request while still responding.

Good dispatchers and good Supervisors are more than their computers.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I say, until the IC says otherwise, the dispatcher had best be using their head and getting what they think are the required units to the incident, no if ands or buts. Sounds like someone at Metrotech needs to check their ego, use their head and realize that sometimes it is better to think out side the box then get trapped inside of it.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

You can't compare a volunteer agency to a paid one, let alone the biggest and up to this point best manned one in the Country. If you were to send R3 to this job did anyone notify R1 and R2 of this so that they could be repositioned if needed? I don't know why R3 was sent to a box in queens to begin with, why not utilize the SSL's that is what they are for. Now that every Rescue has a collapse unit, the days of R3 going out the door for every ceiling collapse from a water leak are over, luckily for them. The whole issue with volunteers is everyone is always who is stepping on the other, not who is going to benefit from this. The issue of pride always gets in the way, and that hurts the people that need the help. When you look at some places getting dispatched 2 or 3 times for a daytime alarm why not just call the neighboring dept as well.

Pay attention, sport. They're not comparing FDNY to volunteer FD's. They're discussing communications and they aren't volunteer agencies.

Your pride is really getting in the way of this thread cause your response has nothing at all to do with the topic. You don't have to know what R3 was sent to a box in QN. The dispatchers acting on the best information at the time believed it was warranted. Jeez.

[Guest jcnyc]

Im not going to get in a battle of wits with an unarmed man. Pride has nothing to do with anything. Crawl down a few hallways then come back to the thread. I want R3 in the Bronx so they can save ME if I need it. You have no clue how things work in NYC, and I was comparing the two, paid vs. volunteer, not criticizing them.

[wraftery 1,275]

The fire service, both dispatchers and supprssors are at a point in time where SOP's and/or SOG's have possibly become a detrement as opposed to a benefit. Some leaders believe they have the soslutions to all problems so they write SOP's one after another, until the SOP book is so thick it takes the low man on the totem pole longer to decipher what action he should take than to control the incident.

Gone are the days of thinking for ourselves, but the problem in a nutshell, the book can't cover every situation. I keep saying SOP, but please don't throw that "We use SOG because they're only guidelines" story at me. Screw up and either term can throw you under the bus. I remember when NFPA only had guidelines. What happened there?

Back to dispatchers making decisions. Your FD hired you from a list because the test you took allegedly tested your ability to think and make decisions. Next they trained you to make decisions. And then hey told you to go exactly by the book.

If your FD doesn't want any dispatcher to think and decide, why put a human in that position. Use a computer instead. I called SEARS yesterday to see if my order was ready. I talked to a very nice girl who kept giving menues to find out what i was calling for. At the end ,she said "Your order will be at the dock at three pm." If dispatchers aren't allowed to think and decide, we could get that SEARS girl to dispatch.

" If you smell smoke say "smell" if you see smoke say "see", If there are actual flames say "FIRE", if you are trapped say "trapped".

I'm sorry "Oh God come quick" is not a recognized answer..please listen to the menu again,,,,,.

Personally, I really think I would have a thinking dispatcher able to say "I'm getting multiple calls and a report of a person trapped I, your dispatcher,,,am bumping this up to a full assignment and adding another truck company.

What do others want?

[Guest jcnyc]

Ever call 911 in NYC? Now it is horrible, you will have to go through the same BS, and if you have a fire forget it!. I don't even call for car accidents anymore they ask what exit number, I didn't even know they had numbers!

[x635 4,066]

In Austin, firefighters dispatch firefighters and takes phone calls for the fire department. EMS you have to be an EMT, and they take phone calls, EMD, and dispatch EMS. They both work from the same facility, with the PD too.

The firefighters work with a regular group, on a 24/48/24/72 schedule. There is a captain and firefighter specialists who have at least 5-10 years in an engine or truck, and they can determine the appropriate responses using their knowledge. And they have a lot of leeway.

However, sometimes that leeway comes back to bite you:

http://www.txcn.com/sharedcontent/dws/txcn/austin/stories/012407kvueBertsfirefolo-cb.15667790.html

[Guest jcnyc]

It would be great if we had our own dispatching us. Never will happen though, our dispatchers are probably better anyway, they really do it well.

[wraftery 1,275]

In Austin, firefighters dispatch firefighters and takes phone calls for the fire department. EMS you have to be an EMT, and they take phone calls, EMD, and dispatch EMS. They both work from the same facility, with the PD too.

The firefighters work with a regular group, on a 24/48/24/72 schedule. There is a captain and firefighter specialists who have at least 5-10 years in an engine or truck, and they can determine the appropriate responses using their knowledge. And they have a lot of leeway.

However, sometimes that leeway comes back to bite you:

http://www.txcn.com/sharedcontent/dws/txcn/austin/stories/012407kvueBertsfirefolo-cb.15667790.html

For x635:

It's not "Leeway." That Capt. made the first command decision in this incident. With Authority comes Responsibility.

For the Captain:

Come on, Tex, ya gotta at least send a company to look.

To the CHIEF::

24000 runs or not, lots of BBQ joints or not,,, that was a dumb thing to say after you made a parking lot.

To the Cab Driver:

Congrats, guy, good job. You are the only one in this scenario that knew what he was doing. Wanna take the dispatcher's test?

[Guest jcnyc]

How many smoke from the roof calls become a top floor job?

[irishfire2491 24]

Sometimes it is like pulling Teeth, just to get an answer from the IC/FD/EMT/or the PD.

Edited December 21, 2010 by irishfire2491

[JBE 328]

jc, the situation I was mentioning was simple. R-4 was assigned to this bus accident, and R-3 was requested as an additional Rescue company. They were released, and assigned to a 10-75 nearby. I am not sure of the specifics, but I wouldn't doubt it if they got in before, or with the second due companies. I understand your desire to have them up north where they may have to and will save your hide if you get in a jam, but believe it or not, R-4 and R-1 are the primary Rescue Companies to be covered in case it goes to poop out on the street.

Now, as far as your post is concerned about having Firefighters as dispatchers, here's where you and I will politely agree to disagree. You don't have to have crawled down a number of hallways to be good at what I do. Does it help to have a little bit of knowledge of firefighting and fire operations?? Absolutely. I've said this a number of times over the course of my career, you don't have to know anything about what you guys do out on the street to be good at what I do, but it sure does help. Ask some of your brethren in LA City how that's working out for them. I think many of them, and I would fathom a guess that you would much rather be crawling down that hallway than relocating 93 Engine to 37 Engine at 2 in the morning. I have some firefighting experience from my years in the Vols(as we call them at work), and the military. Luckily, most of the guys I work with do as well. I also have the knowledge of geography and firehouse locations that make me good at what I do.

Next time you see a car wreck on the highway in the city, don't call 911, call me. I'll get you what you need, and handle the knuckleheads on the 1st floor of 11MT. bc, I appreciate your candor. I am asking these questions because I think that those in charge have really lost sight of what's right. I try to follow the rulebook as best I can, but there are times when you can throw the book out the window and go seat of your pants.

[Guest jcnyc]

Oh I would never suggest that one of us would do your job as well as you guys do. When I got on we had the Jamaican guy who went to Med school as our go to guy in Manhattan, along with 457 who is now in 23 truck. You can see the difference between those two! I had made those comments towards the one poster who failed to read and comprehend what I had written. You can not really ask that kind of question in this forum because almost everyone here besides PD is volunteer. That was why I brought up the pride issue when it comes to automatic mutual aide which is what it would be if the dispatchers made choices like they should be able to.

[M' Ave 1,466]

I've said it before, everyone appreciates a dispatcher who knows the companies, the map and the job. I'm only familiar with 'da Bronx, but we're lucky from The Beef on down, top notch dispatchers. Makes working that much better when the voice on the radio has a good handle on things.

Edited December 21, 2010 by M' Ave

[JBE 328]

457, and Radio Free Trinidad?? Thanks guys. I have to admit, I do miss the radio, a lot. It's more than just those guys on the radio, but I will say this. If it's going nuts in the office and there's a person on the radio with a good radio voice, you'd never know it. There could be nothing going on in the office, but if that person is shaky on the radio, the companies are gonna know it. I was looking, honestly, to see if anyone who worked for either 60, or Yonkers could chime in. Or anyone who has experience with another larger scale operation.

Automatic mutual aid. We do have a plan in the works, haven't seen it yet. As it was related to me, when availablity citywide dips below a certain percentage, we're supposed to make phone calls and get the ball rolling. I don't know the details though. The day tour into night tour of the BIOPOD exercise, when just about every borough caught some work, I had worked part of the day tour in Brooklyn and the night tour in Manhattan. I joked with the Chief Dispatcher on duty that if the fire duty had kept up, we were gonna have E-307 from Yonkers sitting on Webster Avenue at 48's quarters and and engine and tiller from North Hudson sitting in Times Square, as I had a 3rd going up in the Heights. Needless to say, he didn't find that funny, so I threw in Ladder 30 from Rye Brook for added measure.

[Guest jcnyc]

Radio Free Trinidad lol He did become a Dr. right? 457 was great, he was a Fuch's wannabe and he was close.

[Oswegowind 17]

I've pushed the ticket...so far so good (Yonkers)

[Guest aussiegeorge]

over here in Sydney Australia the dispatchers(9 with 2 supervisors per tour)are all firefighters(some are light duties and are doomed to dispatch forever).The dispatchers or supervisors are deemed IC until the first rig gets to the job so have great latitude to send who and what they think is needed,we have a rule send big early you can always turn them around if not needed,sometimes it does streach things thin but then a good dispatcher has the move ups going at the same time.

cheers