Single Training Standard for Firefighter in NYS

[dwcfireman 656]

Some departments need to make an internal rules change to allow this and it has been long overdue. In my old department there were actually more classes of non-firefighting membership than there were of firefighting membership, each with slightly different rights. I tried to combine them once when I was on the By-Laws committee and you should have seen the hornets come out of the nest.

This paragraph (to me) shows the problem here in NYS, and that's the fact that NYS is a "home rule" state when it comes to firefighting standards. My vollie house has 3 classes of firefighters, again with different responsibilities/rights. And if the rules were to be brought up for a by-laws change, there would more than definitely be Hell in that meeting room. Even better (worse) is that the members who will contest your by-laws change are the same guys who are going to contest a NYS law change and standard for firefighting. "200 years of Tradition unimpeded by Change" is still too common around NYS fire houses, and change is far overdue.

[Bnechis 3,961]

This paragraph (to me) shows the problem here in NYS, and that's the fact that NYS is a "home rule" state when it comes to firefighting standards. My vollie house has 3 classes of firefighters, again with different responsibilities/rights. And if the rules were to be brought up for a by-laws change, there would more than definitely be Hell in that meeting room. Even better (worse) is that the members who will contest your by-laws change are the same guys who are going to contest a NYS law change and standard for firefighting. "200 years of Tradition unimpeded by Change" is still too common around NYS fire houses, and change is far overdue.

The "standards" have nothing to do with "home rule". There are laws that depts. either follow or ignor. There are standards that depts. either follow or ignor.

When something goes wrong and the standards are not followed the courts get the final word and not the membership.

You are correct in who is lobbying Albany to prevent change and while that is the real issue here, recent court rulings should be very carefully looked at. If you are a chief and you allow actions that do not meet national standards, you will lose (civil & criminal cases).

[wraftery 1,275]

Maybe there should not be one standard for fire people in NYS. If there were one standard, as we have pushed for all these years, it is pretty obvious that those who are lacking qualifications would impede the process. As in the past, the state would cave in and create the new standard to fit the lowest common denominator.

How about two standards and two titles:
Firefighter- one who has met all requirements, training, mask fit, etc. etc. And keeps up his qualification from year to year as required.

Fireperson- Anything else less than fully qualified.

Then maybe there would be an incentive to become qualified. Oh wait, there's more... Similar to the Gun Laws, the State of NY would have to enact a law that makes the possession of firefighting gear by any person other than a Firefighter (as defined above) a misdemeanor.

[bigfitz2004 19]

New York State does have a Standard. NEW YORK STATE CERTIFICATIONS — generated by the NYS Firefighting and Code Enforcement Personnel Standards and Education Commission.

NYS Certifications recognize the attainment of prescribed levels of training in specific disciplines, through the completion of NYS Fire Training or Code Enforcement training. Certain NYS Certifications are required for career firefighters, Fire Protection Specialists, and Code Enforcement Officials in the State, while others are "voluntary".

NYS FIREFIGHTER RECRUIT II | Top of the Page

Designed For:

All fire service personnel

Required Fire Service Training:

• Basic Firefighter (01-05-0006) or Firefighting Essentials (01-05-0023) and Fire Behavior and Arson Awareness (01-01-0012),
• Intermediate Firefighter (01-05-0057) or Initial Fire Attack (01-05-0027), and
• Local Rules and Regulations, Policies and Procedures, and Right to Know information.

NYS FIREFIGHTER RECRUIT I

|

Top of the Page

Designed For:

All fire service personnel

Prerequisite:

Firefighter Recruit II

Required Fire Service Training:

• Truck Company Operations (01-05-0046) or Ladder Company Operations (01-05-0029),
• Apparatus Operator - Pump (01-05-0005) or Pump Operator (01-05-0037),
• Accident Victim Extrication Training (01-04-0001), and
• Hazardous Materials First Responder Operations (01-09-0071).

NYS FIREFIGHTER | Top of the Page

Designed For:

All fire service personnel

Prerequisite:

Firefighter Recruit I

Required Fire Service Training:

• Recruit Firefighter Training ( Career Academy)
  (01-05-0038) or
• Rescue Technician - Basic (01-04-0032) or Rescue Operations (01-04-0029),
• Incident Command System (01-11-0023),
• Basic Wildland Fire Suppression (01-05-0007),
• Inspection of Existing Structures (02-06-0008),
• Standard first aid or equivalent, and
• Cardiopulmonary resuscitation, and
• Candidate Physical Ability Test (CPAT).

http://www.dhses.ny.gov/ofpc/training/fire-academy/certifications.cfm#10

[bigfitz2004 19]

also

NYS FIREFIGHTER IN-SERVICE | Top of the Page

Designed For:

All fire service personnel

Required Fire Service Training:

• An approved 100-hour In-Service Training program.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

The State of NY doesn't use the national/international standard?

Or are those just local course codes and the recruits are tested/certified to the NFPA equivalents?

Edited July 14, 2013 by SageVigiles

[bigfitz2004 19]

New York State does offer national certification.

1. NATIONAL CERTIFICATIONS — through our accreditation by the National Board on Fire Service Professional Qualifications.
   
   National Certifications are recognized in most States, by agencies of the Federal Government, and in some foreign countries, and provide a vehicle by which firefighter training can generally be transported across jurisdictional boundaries.

NATIONAL CERTIFICATION EXAMINATIONS

Firefighter I

|

Firefighter II

Fire Service Instructor I

|

Fire Service Instructor II

Fire Officer I

|

Fire Officer II

|

Fire Officer III

Fire Investigator

Hazardous Materials First Responder Operations

Incident Safety Officer

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Ah, thanks! Are all County Fire Academies authorized to test to ProBoard, or just the State Academy?

[bigfitz2004 19]

Not sure what the recruits at the trained too. but it seem that national certification is not mandatory. Because the Minimum Standards for

Firefighting Personnel NYCRR Part 426 & Minimum Standards for Firefighting Personnel NYCRR Part 427 does not say anything about national certification.

http://www.dhses.ny.gov/ofpc/documents/standards/Part426LawBook.pdf

http://www.dhses.ny.gov/ofpc/documents/standards/Part427LawBook.pdf

http://www.dhses.ny.gov/ofpc/groups/documents/PART438TEXTREVISED.pdf

[Bnechis 3,961]

New York State does have a Standard. NEW YORK STATE CERTIFICATIONS — generated by the NYS Firefighting and Code Enforcement Personnel Standards and Education Commission.

NYS Certifications recognize the attainment of prescribed levels of training in specific disciplines, through the completion of NYS Fire Training or Code Enforcement training. Certain NYS Certifications are required for career firefighters, Fire Protection Specialists, and Code Enforcement Officials in the State, while others are "voluntary".

NYS FIREFIGHTER RECRUIT II | Top of the Page

-academy/certifications.cfm#10Designed For: All fire service personnel

Required Fire Service Training:

• Basic Firefighter (01-05-0006) or Firefighting Essentials (01-05-0023) and Fire Behavior and Arson Awareness (01-01-0012),
• Intermediate Firefighter (01-05-0057) or Initial Fire Attack (01-05-0027), and
• Local Rules and Regulations, Policies and Procedures, and Right to Know information.

NYS FIREFIGHTER RECRUIT I | Top of the Page

Designed For: All fire service personnel

Prerequisite: Firefighter Recruit II

Required Fire Service Training:

• Truck Company Operations (01-05-0046) or Ladder Company Operations (01-05-0029),
• Apparatus Operator - Pump (01-05-0005) or Pump Operator (01-05-0037),
• Accident Victim Extrication Training (01-04-0001), and
• Hazardous Materials First Responder Operations (01-09-0071).

Since NYS Law is clear that you must have Hazardous Materials First Responder Operations BEFORE you can respond to ANY Calls (beyond being a spectator), why do we need FF Recruit II?

29CFR 1910.120 (q) (6):

Training. Training shall be based on the duties and function to be performed by each responder of an emergency response organization. The skill and knowledge levels required for all new responders, those hired after the effective date of this standard, shall be conveyed to them through training before they are permitted to take part in actual emergency operations on an incident. Employees who participate, or are expected to participate, in emergency response, shall be given training in accordance with the following paragraphs:

The effective date is March 7, 1996

[dwcfireman 656]

The "standards" have nothing to do with "home rule".

To clarify what I originally meant with NYS being a "home rule" state when it comes to firefighting standards is that NYS doesn't uphold a single standard for everyone to follow (hence this discussion topic). I wasn't getting into anything legal.

[everybodygoes 331]

Aren't every new members required to complete firefighter 1 before they can even wear a mask? I took essentials in 1994, that was more than enough back then, hell I work with guys who went to proby school for only 3 weeks, now we have 14 weeks of training and a few poor bastids had 6 months! We still have guys who come out of proby school who are flat out retarded!

[v85 212]

In my department OSHA and Interior status are two different things.

OSHA means you have completed BBP/HAZMAT, Fit Test, SCBA qualification and a certain number of drills. These members are qualified to wear an SCBA (i.e. HAZMAT, Car Fires, other calls where you need to be on air)

Interior means you have completed both the above OSHA training and Firefighter I, and are qualified to enter a structure on fire

[bigfitz2004 19]

Since NYS Law is clear that you must have Hazardous Materials First Responder Operations BEFORE you can respond to ANY Calls (beyond being a spectator), why do we need FF Recruit II?

29CFR 1910.120 (q) (6):

Training. Training shall be based on the duties and function to be performed by each responder of an emergency response organization. The skill and knowledge levels required for all new responders, those hired after the effective date of this standard, shall be conveyed to them through training before they are permitted to take part in actual emergency operations on an incident. Employees who participate, or are expected to participate, in emergency response, shall be given training in accordance with the following paragraphs:

The effective date is March 7, 1996

Is 29CFR 1910.120 (q) (6): OSHA not State law?

"why do we need FF Recruit II?"

Standards Unit

NYS DHSES

Office of Fire Prevention and Control

99 Washington Ave, Suite 500

Albany, NY 12210-2833

(518) 474-6746

The Standards Unit should be able to answer that question Capt Bnechis.

Why is the Career Academy in Westchester long then the one at

Academy of Fire Science in Montour Falls which is 11 weeks so not all Career academy are the same in the New York State?

So a Paid firefighter coming out of the fire Academy in Montour Falls do they have "Same Training " As a Paid firefighter in Westchester?

[v85 212]

Because individual agencies can add to training. They can not take away from it

[Bnechis 3,961]

Is 29CFR 1910.120 (q) (6): OSHA not State law?

"why do we need FF Recruit II?"

The Standards Unit should be able to answer that question Capt Bnechis.

Why is the Career Academy in Westchester long then the one at

Academy of Fire Science in Montour Falls which is 11 weeks so not all Career academy are the same in the New York State?

So a Paid firefighter coming out of the fire Academy in Montour Falls do they have "Same Training " As a Paid firefighter in Westchester?

NYS as an OSHA "state plan" state is required to have equall or stricter regulations. To do this the Labor Law that established PESH documents this. And NYS uses and thus enforces the exact same federal standards, using the same federal CFR language.

I would be shocked if the standards unit has any knowledge of why one of there standards is below the level required by state law. I stopped teaching the courses when they asked us to cover 15 hours of material in 3 hours. I told them this was wrong as no new volunteers would be legally able to respond to calls. I was told that higher ups had determined that it did not mater and the state just needed to make the courses shorter.

The academy's in Utica, Montor Falls, Westchester, and FDNY all exceed the minimum standard as required by law. Westchester adds Hazmat Tech and Tech Rescue plus some other material, because the Westchester Career Chiefs want it done then and not later. I do not know if this still is part of it, but at one time montor adds some evening course work, making the days longer.

[firemoose827 324]

New York State does have a Standard. NEW YORK STATE CERTIFICATIONS — generated by the NYS Firefighting and Code Enforcement Personnel Standards and Education Commission.

NYS Certifications recognize the attainment of prescribed levels of training in specific disciplines, through the completion of NYS Fire Training or Code Enforcement training. Certain NYS Certifications are required for career firefighters, Fire Protection Specialists, and Code Enforcement Officials in the State, while others are "voluntary".

NYS FIREFIGHTER RECRUIT II | Top of the Page

NYS FIREFIGHTER | Top of the PageDesigned For: All fire service personnel

Required Fire Service Training:

• Basic Firefighter (01-05-0006) or Firefighting Essentials (01-05-0023) and Fire Behavior and Arson Awareness (01-01-0012),
• Intermediate Firefighter (01-05-0057) or Initial Fire Attack (01-05-0027), and
• Local Rules and Regulations, Policies and Procedures, and Right to Know information.

NYS FIREFIGHTER RECRUIT I | Top of the Page

Designed For: All fire service personnel

Prerequisite: Firefighter Recruit II

Required Fire Service Training:

• Truck Company Operations (01-05-0046) or Ladder Company Operations (01-05-0029),
• Apparatus Operator - Pump (01-05-0005) or Pump Operator (01-05-0037),
• Accident Victim Extrication Training (01-04-0001), and
• Hazardous Materials First Responder Operations (01-09-0071).

Designed For:

All fire service personnel

Prerequisite:

Firefighter Recruit I

Required Fire Service Training:

• Recruit Firefighter Training ( Career Academy)
  (01-05-0038) or
• Rescue Technician - Basic (01-04-0032) or Rescue Operations (01-04-0029),
• Incident Command System (01-11-0023),
• Basic Wildland Fire Suppression (01-05-0007),
• Inspection of Existing Structures (02-06-0008),
• Standard first aid or equivalent, and
• Cardiopulmonary resuscitation, and
• Candidate Physical Ability Test (CPAT).

http://www.dhses.ny.gov/ofpc/training/fire-academy/certifications.cfm#10

I just wanted to ask for clarification here, but it seems to me the Levels are backwords in this quote, shouldnt FF1 be the basic level and FF2 be the advanced level? Yet here it states prerequisite for FF1 is FF2??? Just curious to see if it was a typo.

I am currently a FF2 which I thought was the highest level a volunteer could reach in NYS since they do not have FF3 certification.

This is great information though, and according to this I am only lacking the extra training hours that I lack for the academy, and then Rescue Technician Basic, in order to be a NYS Firefighter. I need to get me CPR back too but thats easy. Thanks for sharing this.

[wraftery 1,275]

The NY Administrative standards have been around for a long long time but they have changed, Take a look at what is called "Best Practices." NY State lists a whole bunch of qualifications but requires none. Best practices doesn't say "Shall" any more, it sort of says "It would really be nice if your department required these things."

[201/65 94]

The academy's in Utica, Montor Falls, Westchester, and FDNY all exceed the minimum standard as required by law. Westchester adds Hazmat Tech and Tech Rescue plus some other material, because the Westchester Career Chiefs want it done then and not later. I do not know if this still is part of it, but at one time montour adds some evening course work, making the days longer.

When I completed the academy in Montour Falls 3 years ago, they were running 15 hour days (6a - 9p). Everyone was required to bunk in during the week, even the guy who lived 15 minutes away.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I just wanted to ask for clarification here, but it seems to me the Levels are backwords in this quote, shouldnt FF1 be the basic level and FF2 be the advanced level? Yet here it states prerequisite for FF1 is FF2??? Just curious to see if it was a typo..

Welcome to New York State

[firemoose827 324]

Welcome to New York State

If I am correct THIS is what it should say, yes?

NYS Certifications recognize the attainment of prescribed levels of training in specific disciplines, through the completion of NYS Fire Training or Code Enforcement training. Certain NYS Certifications are required for career firefighters, Fire Protection Specialists, and Code Enforcement Officials in the State, while others are "voluntary".

NYS FIREFIGHTER RECRUIT I | Top of the Page

Designed For: All fire service personnel

Required Fire Service Training:

• Basic Firefighter (01-05-0006) or Firefighting Essentials (01-05-0023) and Fire Behavior and Arson Awareness (01-01-0012),
• Intermediate Firefighter (01-05-0057) or Initial Fire Attack (01-05-0027), and
• Local Rules and Regulations, Policies and Procedures, and Right to Know information.

NYS FIREFIGHTER RECRUIT II | Top of the Page

Designed For: All fire service personnel

Prerequisite: Firefighter Recruit I

Required Fire Service Training:

• Truck Company Operations (01-05-0046) or Ladder Company Operations (01-05-0029),
• Apparatus Operator - Pump (01-05-0005) or Pump Operator (01-05-0037),
• Accident Victim Extrication Training (01-04-0001), and
• Hazardous Materials First Responder Operations (01-09-0071).

NYS FIREFIGHTER | Top of the Page

Designed For: All fire service personnel

Prerequisite: Firefighter Recruit II

Required Fire Service Training:

• Recruit Firefighter Training ( Career Academy) (01-05-0038) or
• Rescue Technician - Basic (01-04-0032) or Rescue Operations (01-04-0029),
• Incident Command System (01-11-0023),
• Basic Wildland Fire Suppression (01-05-0007),
• Inspection of Existing Structures (02-06-0008),
• Standard first aid or equivalent, and
• Cardiopulmonary resuscitation, and
• Candidate Physical Ability Test (CPAT).

http://www.dhses.ny....ications.cfm#10

[v85 212]

This is the real reason I don't think there will be a standardized training course in NYS for a very long time:

It has nothing to do with home rule, consolidation (or lack thereof) or anything else. The reason is simple, I don't think the general public cares that much about it.

If John Q. Public's house is on fire, does he really care if the firefighters all have Bloodborne Pathogens and Workplace Violence training?

If Suzie Q. Public's car is wrapped around a tree, does she care if the people cutting her out have FF1+AVET or Scene Support+AVET? Does she even know what those classes are?

If their autistic child runs off in to the woods, do you think they give one iota of concern to what kind of firefighting training the searchers have?

All the public really cares about is they call 911, and a red truck with flashing lights shows up and fixes the problem.

Without them (public) caring, I unfortunately don't see anything changing, especially in this day of 2% tax caps and words like "austerity" and "sequestration" becoming part of our daily language

[Bnechis 3,961]

The reason is simple, I don't think the general public cares that much about it.

If John Q. Public's house is on fire, does he really care if the firefighters all have Bloodborne Pathogens and Workplace Violence training?

If Suzie Q. Public's car is wrapped around a tree, does she care if the people cutting her out have FF1+AVET or Scene Support+AVET? Does she even know what those classes are?

I agree that the general public does not care, but they also assume that all firefighers are trained!

They do not know that the when the dept. claims to have hundreds of volunteers and that they are saving millions, that they often can not get a team of interior members to an incident.

You are correct, they do not care if the members all have training, because they have already been convinced that they do. Often by the community and dept. leadership who either have no idea or are part of the old guard that keeps pushing for 2 standards.

[v85 212]

They do not know that the when the dept. claims to have hundreds of volunteers and that they are saving millions, that they often can not get a team of interior members to an incident.

There was an automatic alarm in Orange County today.

Responding were 3 different fire departments

The district the call was in; an automatic mutual aid district; another district with their ladder standing by in quarters; and a county coordinator. For a residential alarm.

You don't have the manpower to handle an AFA, without excessive mutual aid?

[wraftery 1,275]

This is the real reason I don't think there will be a standardized training course in NYS for a very long time:

It has nothing to do with home rule, consolidation (or lack thereof) or anything else. The reason is simple, I don't think the general public cares that much about it.

If John Q. Public's house is on fire, does he really care if the firefighters all have Bloodborne Pathogens and Workplace Violence training?

If Suzie Q. Public's car is wrapped around a tree, does she care if the people cutting her out have FF1+AVET or Scene Support+AVET? Does she even know what those classes are?

If their autistic child runs off in to the woods, do you think they give one iota of concern to what kind of firefighting training the searchers have?

All the public really cares about is they call 911, and a red truck with flashing lights shows up and fixes the problem.

Without them (public) caring, I unfortunately don't see anything changing, especially in this day of 2% tax caps and words like "austerity" and "sequestration" becoming part of our daily language

AH, but there's a catch. It's a thing called Expectation of Services which is a legal term. It means that if you advertise or imply that you can provide a service, you must then be able to provide that service. If your big truck says Fire Department on the side and the guys that get off it are wearing what appears to be fireman clothes, then the people you responded to have every right to believe that you are fully qualified to do the job of a fireman.

Expectation of Services only comes into play when you screw up. For example, if you are extricating Suzie Q above, and in doing the extrication you cause further injury, the first thing Suzie's lawyer will want to see is your qualification and training

[v85 212]

But doesn't it only matter that you are qualified in what task you are doing that came into question.

For example, in an extrication, if the people operating are AVET + Rescue Tech certified. Does it matter if they are FF1, FF2, or any other suppression cert?

[Bnechis 3,961]

But doesn't it only matter that you are qualified in what task you are doing that came into question.

For example, in an extrication, if the people operating are AVET + Rescue Tech certified. Does it matter if they are FF1, FF2, or any other suppression cert?

In part yes. Since FF1 is a prerequisite to AVET.

If I am trapped in my car, it would be very nice to know that the people who are extricating me know what to do when the car catches fire.

Does any FD have enough members that they can affort to specilize to such a degree that theycan only go on a small percentage of the calls?

I see a lot of depts that run about 500 - 750 calls per year. 60% are EMS (might be nice to be trained in that too), so now we are down to 200- 300 non EMS calls. Another 15% are AFA or 75 - 110 more calls, which based on this thread many of your members may not be qualified to respond to. So now we are down to about 100-200 calls, which maybe 10% include, CO, Odor of Gas, Fuel Spill, unknow odor, "wash downs, etc. If they are not certified (which if they have not made FFII orat least HM OPS ) it is illegal forthem to go on these 50-75 calls. So we are down to about 50 - 100 calls per year in the average VFD. They include wires down, general emergencies, and MVA. So do you really need a member who can only go on 15% of your calls (and based on the above prerequisite can not do that either)?

[v85 212]

In part yes. Since FF1 is a prerequisite to AVET.

If I am trapped in my car, it would be very nice to know that the people who are extricating me know what to do when the car catches fire.

Does any FD have enough members that they can affort to specilize to such a degree that theycan only go on a small percentage of the calls?

I see a lot of depts that run about 500 - 750 calls per year. 60% are EMS (might be nice to be trained in that too), so now we are down to 200- 300 non EMS calls. Another 15% are AFA or 75 - 110 more calls, which based on this thread many of your members may not be qualified to respond to. So now we are down to about 100-200 calls, which maybe 10% include, CO, Odor of Gas, Fuel Spill, unknow odor, "wash downs, etc. If they are not certified (which if they have not made FFII orat least HM OPS ) it is illegal forthem to go on these 50-75 calls. So we are down to about 50 - 100 calls per year in the average VFD. They include wires down, general emergencies, and MVA. So do you really need a member who can only go on 15% of your calls (and based on the above prerequisite can not do that either)?

Yes, it makes sense to us, but I don't think the average civilian (who is voting people into and out of office understand that)

Also, these are the prerequisites for AVET:

Prerequisites: Firefighter I; Basic Firefighter; or Firefighting Essentials, or Scene Support Operations, or basic level EMS training

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I have to agree with v85 here. The general public is not going to care (or in some cases doesn't have a say) and as long as nobody gets hurt neither will OSHA or the courts. So most departments think they can get away with whatever they want because they're the Fire Department, and nobody tells them what to do.

As with everything else in the fire service, nothing will change until somebody dies.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Also, these are the prerequisites for AVET:

Prerequisites: Firefighter I; Basic Firefighter; or Firefighting Essentials, or Scene Support Operations, or basic level EMS training

Thats not what OFPC's 2013 Training Catalog lists. It only had Firefighter I