Points For Vol. FF's on Civil Service Exams

[FF402 133]

Did anybody catch the Letter to the editor in today's New York Times from the Greenburgh Town Supervisor, Paul Feiner???

He wrote to say he supports a new NYS law that would give Volunteer FF's and EMT's extra points when taking civil service exams for fire and polices.

He also went on to say how important it was to keep volunteers, because if not they would have to hire more paid staff. Kinda wierd that you would use that as a recruitment incentive then.

[maisela 0]

Has this law already been approved or is it still to be voted on?

[gss131 212]

sounds like a home rule bill that if passed would have to be enacted on an individual basis for each municipality that requests it.I imagine it would really only affect combo departments like greenburgh.

[Guest JQP442]

This has not been signed into law yet. If you would like to read the NYS Assembly bill regarding this you can go to :

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A02712

[Guest alsfirefighter]

So whats next? Points for knowing CPR? Graduating high school?

This used to be simple, if you served your country in the military you quailify for either 5 points on an entrance exam or 2.5 points on a promotional exam. That is the way it should be and that is the way it should stay, giving to those whom have answered the call of duty and served their country.

[Guest Truckie 1075]

So whats next?  Points for knowing CPR?  Graduating high school? 

This used to be simple, if you served your country in the military you quailify for either 5 points on an entrance exam or 2.5 points on a promotional exam.  That is the way it should be and that is the way it should stay, giving to those whom have answered the call of duty and served their country.

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I think it's a great idea, you should get CREDIT for having a background in a job you want and are applying for. You need more guys on the job who took the job to be firefighters, not just because of the good benifits and to sleep. I hope it passes, the current recruitment/filtering process in westchester sucks.

Edited February 27, 2006 by Truckie 1075

[Geppetto 31]

At one time, volunteer firefighters who received their "Exemption Certificates", or essentially completed 5 years of service were entitled to additional points on Civil Service exams. The title "Exemption Certificate" became common for jury duty exemption for those firefighters who were no longer active. The civil service points went away quite some time ago (late 60's - early 70's), the jury duty exemption left when all exemptions were eliminated (doctors, lawyers, police officers) in the 90's. What's old is new again.

[firecapt32 282]

I might be persuaded in the argument that points might be added if there is firefighter one and/or firefighter 2 national certification, but just because you belong to a volunteer department?? what happens to the poor guy/girl that lives in yonkers/mt vernon/ new rochelle/white plains.

Points for serving our country yes in deed!!!

[x635 4,066]

I find this notion interesting.

I am sitting here, reading the article, and the point is that this credit is to be used as an incentive to recruit and retain volunteers in order to avoid hiring paid staff and the associated costs. So, if you volunteer to get this credit, and supplement the departments manpower, then effectively you are blocking yourself from getting hired.

Another interesting point, this proposal states that this credit can also be used toward promotional exams.

I'm not going to go into the other issues stated in this letter, but people who TRULY want to volunteer are going to do so, regardless of these bonuses and incentives. There are also people who really want to be career Firefighters and Police Officers, who don't have the time or can't afford to volunteer. Or better yet, can't volunteer because of geographic location or because they don't believe in the principles of the agency (such as those who put politics and partys before protection) If an emergency services agency needs manpower, then it needs to be provided defintively no matter what the cost, and not by offering these incentives and hoping people will join.

I agree that people who volunteer already demonstrate an interest, and should be given some sort of recruiting track depending on their performance, training, and behavior......but in the context this proposal is presented in is flawed.

If those who volunteer truly want to "get on", then they need to help make the oppurtunities for themselves happen, and not fight against them (where those positions are needed).

Edited February 27, 2006 by x635

[Firefighter57 0]

So whats next?  Points for knowing CPR?  Graduating high school? 

This used to be simple, if you served your country in the military you quailify for either 5 points on an entrance exam or 2.5 points on a promotional exam.  That is the way it should be and that is the way it should stay, giving to those whom have answered the call of duty and served their country.

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ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you that i respect the troops, their job, and their families more then alot of people but like truckie 1075 said, its a good idea to give points if you have experince in the job you are going for. i just never could understand why someone with a gun wanting to trade it in for a hose gets more points then somone with a water can wanting to trade for a hose. what i am talking about is isnt a firefighter better prepaired from the get go to fight fire then someone who was in the military? its just too bad the city wouldnt do that.

[yfd910 8]

Whether this is passed or not, it really only affects a few departments. How many combination departments are there in Westchester alone? 12? Along with the rest of the state, it's not a lot. Maybe 50? Take into consideration that unless you're a resident, being a Bedford Hills volunteer (and I'm only using this as an example) won't get you hired in Eastchester. Most departments only hire residents. A combo dept. will usually give preference to the volunteer who is also a resident. So what does it do? It gives you more points to sit on a list with your hopes up and wonder if some local dept. is going to exhaust their list and hire off the county list. Or, it gives someone who scored a 90 a 95 compared to someone who scored a straight 95. How would you feel if you were that 95 and lost the job to someone who scored lower than you? Plus, in my opinion, military points are the only points a candidate should get. I also agree with x635. If you want the job, which a lot of guys around here would kill for, why would you join to block yourself? I don't agree with this at all.

Edited February 27, 2006 by yfd910

[Porsha911gt3 8]

First off let me say, i am only 18 i am in no way questioning your knowledge yfd910,

but why do u feel

military points are the only points a candidate should get

[yfd910 8]

First off let me say, i am only 18 i am in no way questioning your knowledge yfd910,

but why do u feel

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Not a problem.

To quote alsfirefighter:

".......giving to those whom have answered the call of duty and served their country."

nuff said.

[ex-commish 490]

Not a problem.

To quote alsfirefighter:

".......giving to those whom have answered the call of duty and served their country."

nuff said.

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There are people in this country that go above and beyond. As we "freely" express our opinions on this board there are those right now losing thier lives in Iraq and Afganisthan or getting hurt so we can "freely" express our selves. They don't ask for much and don't get much when they return home. As far as I am concerned they deserve the extra points. And believe me I am someone who would benefit from the proposed law as I have been volunteering for many years but no sacrifice I have made has come close to what our armed force members have sacrificed. They deserve more !!!!

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[Remember585 815]

Perhaps points can be given based on the actual training one has completed. Firecapt32 is on to something with the FF 1 and FF 2 certs. I think that maybe for every 50 hours of State / national training you could throw a point or two....

As for our troops, I think they should get 10 points. I also don't think residency is fair. Some people just can't afford to move and others don't want to move to certain areas, but are more then willing to work in them.....

[INIT915 1,119]

This has not been signed into law yet.  If you would like to read the NYS Assembly bill regarding this you can go to :

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A02712

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This seems very vauge. It does not seem to specify how long you should have volunteered, are you active or were you active in the past, etc, etc, etc...

If it follows the lead of most other Assembly/Senate bills, it won't go anywhere. It will just be reintroduced year after year.

[bob803 1]

I think giving points/preference for those who vol SUCK. Study hard and do well it sounds like special points for those who can't cut the mustard. I am sick and tired of hearing how 'I volso give me the job'

Becuase I want the best of the best anyone can vol if they give enoght time. Why should someone who takes a test and does well also have to compete against those who vol.

[Guest]

Seems like its just another way to skirt through the tests with a few extra points. Like some have already said, those who want it bad enough (and i mean really want it) will make sure they are well prepared mentally, physically and academicly. If anything this will just cause an even greater rift between volunteer agencies and professional, and an even larger gap on the individual basis. Look at NYC, FDNYEMS employees who choose to go to the fire academy more or less given a spot, while the average joe has a much more difficult time. What has this caused? Well, on a very general level it has caused a distrust and pretty deep-seated distaste for EMS. Seems to me this is the last thing anyone needs. Besides, volunteering should be based on ones desire to give back to the community, not to get some brownie points on a civil service test...after all, that would almost go against the grain of what volunteering should be. And anyone who contests the points veterans get is a complete moron and really needs to get their head examined.

Edited February 28, 2006 by 66Alpha1

[TimesUp 148]

What ever happened to the old fashioned way. Study hard and train hard. Stop relying on extra points. Shoot for 100/100 on both parts of any test. This way you'll always be at the top of any list and very reachable. Even if others recieved some point advantage. Good luck on any test you may be taking. Just to add..I recieved vets points. But I was'nt going to let that make or brake my grade.

Edited February 28, 2006 by ltrob

[4truck48 25]

I have a better idea, how about nobody volunteer and then the departments have to HIRE people. Then everbody gets the job. There is no way that the departments could handle the sudden drop off of firefighters, so they would be forced to throw out all standards, testing and physical requirements. If you have more people who want the job then you have positions, then make an announcement that on Tuesday we're going to hire fireghters, and then hire the first 50 or 100 people who come to the door.

[Guest]

why don't you guys just join the military and you will get your points and you will learn something like respect, self-control, loyalty, honor and when to keep your mouth shut. :angry:

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Just to add on, someone mentioned it earlier, however there are several things that would have to be addressed. Define "member." Define "active" for that part. Every department has a different definition of what a active member is. There are flaws and problems with the LOSAP system simply in this regard and you would want civil service to handle this as well? It takes some serious time for them to compile a list and now you want them to get swarmed with paperwork to prove your a member or even active?

Whats the difference between trading a gun for a hose or a water can for hose?

4 years of active service.....no choice in where you are stationed, where you are deployed. Training and deployment to areas with adverse conditions, often not able to return home for over a year at best, and sometimes not in contact with any family or loved ones for months at a time. No choice in when to "hang out" what calls to answer or to stay in bed. How many Christmas's with the family have you missed? How often have you slept on the ground in temperatures from 10 to 120 degrees?

[Guest]

I have utmost respect for our military veterans. My entire family has served in the military, fighting in wars over the last 50 years. One thing I always learned over the years regarding war veterans....those that seen quite a bit of combat will be very quiet about it......They will not tell you how many days they were away from home, what adverse conditions they were in etc etc. They served their country proudly and with dignity and will not complain or tell all on how they slept and lived under adverse conditions.

As far as the point credit... I am a firm believer in aimin high and goin for that 100-100...Hard work and determination will lead you to a job in this business. To our brothers and sisters in the military, Thank you for your service and the military credit is the least our country can do for you.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Exactly goalie...that is why I believe there should be 3 level of points for vets...veterans whom served....combat vets and then disabled vets. You also brought up something that I lost my thought on, most veterans take their points with pride and that is what I was alluding too when I answered the question. Generally vets will only talk to other vets about experiences that only they would understand, unless someeone else asks. You can't get a feel for what many of us go through by watching the discovery or military channel. You also don't see many of us crying the blues that we don't get the respect we deserve from the general population for those of us who signed the dotted line and even more so, even those drafted during the Viet Nam era. Keep the points where they belong, to veterans. Otherwise keep in mind you may get exactly what you ask for....people joining for points and making bigger problems for you. People don't join the military for civil service points....we join for what goalie said, service to yoru country, and a sense of duty, for many of us its also a family tradition. Funny enough goalie I think I misread your post the first time and I'm glad I re-read it, you summed up some of my points. You'll never hear me complain about what I did, or where I served or for what. It was what my job was, but its what I wrote about is why I think that guy or girl with the honorable discharge in one hand, and a DD 214 in the other deserves more then anyone else in civil service.

[houlidsa 76]

I have a voli background and I am in a FD's hiring process. When I get on I will not feel better about the guy next to me just because he's a voli. The guy who lived in a town of all 1 & 2 stories homes does not have the same experience level as the guy from an urban combo fd. I feel that basing it on standardized methods is the only way to do that. Such as certain college degrees, certain nation training, or military. This shows that they can accomplish and comprehend. In FL you need to on your owe go out and get certified and then go through a FD's training. That has to dramatically cut down on wash outs and those pursuing a civil service job. I just don't feel that someone's membership should entitle them to anything. Earning and doing should. I do not feel that I have any right to be specific on what military should/shouldn't be accepted. I respect all our service people and anyone that serves weither combat or support has done something for our nation as a whole.

[Firefighter57 0]

I think giving points/preference for those who vol SUCK.  Study hard and do well it sounds like special points for those who can't cut the mustard.  I am sick and tired of hearing how 'I volso give me the job'

Becuase I want the best of the best anyone can vol if they give enoght time.  Why should someone who takes a test and does well also have to compete against those who vol.

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i don't think anyone is saying that at all. reemphasizing my point above, it is good to give those who serve points and i respect them more then any other job but when it comes down to it, is this test about who will be better qualified or is this test about who we respect more. You would think the test is to see who is the best for the job. I personaly am a poor test taker. if a person forgets their stuff when it comes time for the test but was/is a vol. firefighter who knows what he/she is doing on a scene and ends up getting beaten out by someone who has never been in a fire before and know nothing of what its like, it kind of defeats the purpose of the test. Heck, maybe no one should get extra points.

its also not jsut vols. Ive read some job info pages on line where you dont get extra points even if you were a full time firefighter. Now i understand that both an active vol and a paid guy should know his stuff better then anyone else but people do forget things when they are tested but can remember in the field.

...just some things to consider

and and in the end, to be honest, id feel better knowing that the kid next to me has been in a fire before. Maybe he has even made a grab but in the end, he knows what its like, he will react a bit more comly depending on where he is from and he will have a head start on the deeper knowlage that is not taught at probie school.

Edited February 28, 2006 by Firefighter57

[Guest]

Rewarding (that’s really what it is) veterans points is another way of being a grateful nation. It’s a matter of respecting, honoring, and appreciating those who have served in order for us to enjoy the life we all enjoy.

It appears that some people have not taken civil service exams. While I only have limited experience with them, it’s important to note that a civil service exam doesn’t examine your ability/knowledge as a firefighter/EMS provider. Instead, it evaluates you on more of a standardized academic level. The tests I have taken are simply reading comprehension and your general academics, most of which is learned in high school.

If your deemed mentally, academically, and physically fit you go to the academy (obviously), that’s where you become an expert in your field (EMS, Fire, Policing, etc.). So, in all honesty, being a volunteer EMS/Fire provider won’t give you an edge on the actual test, and if anything, will only hurt you when it comes to going to the academy and learning the real or prescribed method of doing things.

Let’s face it, the best systems are those provided by a municipality not those provided by a volunteer system. Likewise, paid professionals maintain a standardized level of knowledge and expertise in the field. I guarantee if you show up on any volunteer controlled fire/ems scene you’re going to find blaring problems/hazards (anyone who has sat for a basic EMT class or possibly an equivalent fire class can vouch for that). For that reason, volunteering shouldn’t be qualified as service deserving points on any civil service/fire/ems exam. Chance are, the way you, your department or agency do things is contrary (or just plain wrong) to the standards and expectations of a municipal, paid, system therefore you are no more well qualified than any other person, despite what you might think.