JFLYNN

Gotcha, I'm more curious as to what services were requested or offered. Were they looking to relay pump from Bronx hydrants? Did they want the satellite? They had a serious logistical issue and I'm wondering how they were thinking about solving it.

Had Marine 1 stationed a boat on the yonkers waterfront, they could have provided 50,000 gpm to the west side. I know they carry huge spools of 5" and are intended to supplement the water system in the event of a similar emergency in NYC. How far can the new vessels pump inland before the pressure becomes ineffective? Perhaps someone with more marine company knowledge has the answer.

Good observations and questions. The EOC was opened early in this incident and a Unified Command was established. Internally, our 5,000 gallon tanker was deployed, members were recalled to man reserve LDH Engines, and to serve as a Water Supply Chief, man our fireboat, as well as other critical functions. WCDES, NYSHHS / OEM, and FDNY were all contacted early on and resources were put in place. Tankers were provided by MTA, Con Ed, Yonkers Contracting, and portable tanks were provided by I believe, Banksville, and another department in Westchester. Other than pre-planning, and providing the portable tanks, no outside Fire Departments were needed to operate within the city. The FDNY Fireboats were identified as a potential resource, and we were told they would be available if needed. Pre-staging FDNY boat or boats in Yonkers was discussed but decided against. Practical distances that water could be pumped from the river were calculated. Relay operations were preplanned, and a YFD Task Water Supply Task Force has been standing by since yestaerday afternoon. FDNY Division 7 as well as FDNY Dispatchers were very helpful in pre-planning Satelitte Task Forces which would be able to quickly deploy into Yonkers if needed.

It is interesting to remember that Chief Bill Fitz, who had the foresight to secure a surplus tanker several years ago and to cheaply have it painted and modified for just such an event as this, was mocked and belittled for his efforts. Once again, his and other YFD members foresight and pre-planning proved to be accurate.

Lots of other deails I am not mentioning here. Kudos to our members for coming in quickly when recalled and doing whatever was asked, as well as to the many cooperating individuals and agencies who offered help and advice.

YFD, as is the case for many other departments and agencies, has many dedicated and knowledgeable people "behind the scenes", who are constantly planning for not only routine incidents, but also those that may only happen once in a lifetime, if at all. It is a tough thing to do these days, as those who hold the purse strings rarely recognize the necessity of dedicating adequate resources to planning for events which may never happen. It is also always interesting to be involved in these type incidents, and to recognize the surprise on people's faces, including at times our own members, to fiind out that we have anticipated such events and we have resources available and plans ready to implement. The response to this event could have been much better, for sure, but all things considered, I was happy with what I saw.

This is just a quick note to give some perspective, leaving out lots of details and probably with some mistakes. I probably will not have time to posta again for a few days or so, so sorry if I don't respond to questions or commens about this.

Unless I'm mistaken the Yonkers budget is still subject to comptroller approval for a few more years. So in June the city of hills will once again be trying to prevent state intervention and maintain their independence from an oversight committee. Yonkers was, is, and will continue to be at risk for state takeover. Why the nitpicking over semantics?

yes, why?

When the comptroller is reviewing your budget, I believe the next step is a state appointed supervisor. On June 27 when the Comptroller rejected Yonkers budget they were a few steps away from state take over.

The key words in this post are "On June 27", and "were", as opposed to your earlier post with the word "is". Thanks for the correction. However, as I mentioned earlier, it wouldn't necessarily be such a bad thing if it were to happen.

Actually, I might go one step further and say certain aspects of Yonkers finances are already under de facto control.

http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2012/07/02/state-comptroller-oks-revised-yonkers-budget/

It's not a financial control board, but it's hard to argue that Yonkers is free to make completely independent decisions.

Yes. You are correct, and luckily for the FD. However, a long way from "finances being taken over by the State..." (unfortunately) but we can dream, can't we???

For better or worse, it would at least appear the idea is being floated in some circles.

2011 - http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/06/01/yonkers-running-out-of-time-to-close-budget-gap-avoid-fiscal-crisis/

2012 - http://newyork.newsday.com/politics/report-yonkers-budget-deficit-at-89m-1.3650354

2012 - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303302504577326262070206648.html

The first article is from over a year ago. I couldn't access the second. The third refers to the opinion of an "independent" commission, of which all of its members were appointed by the Mayor. That opinion was apparently incorrect, as the budget was subsequently balanced with a 3.4% tax increase, and no large scale cuts to city services.

Its happened to other cities and counties. Politicians refusing to make hard choices, bad bets, and tough economics can quickly sink a fagile budget.

Yonkers is close to being taken over by the state, Nassau is run by NYS, and a multitude of towns cities, and counties across the country are in similar positions.

What makes you think Yonkers is close to being taken over by the state?

I read the article and it is always a good idea to evaluate your tactics and see what works and what doesn't. I am certain thhat FDNY will do scientific studies and end up with valid results.

I remember, however Lloyd Layman's experiments with fog. To some it became like the word of God. Others were skeptical and stayed with smooth bore nozzles. It started a debate within the fire service that never looked like it was going to end. Many were very opinionated regarding fog vs. straight, but very few actually went to their live burn place and tried both under the same conditions to form their opinion. They simply sided with one or the other. A large number of our colleagues sided with fog only because it was "new" and if you use something "new" you are progressive. We don't do that, do we? (PPV on attack, magic penetrating solutions , etc.)

Some of the FDNY article mentioned "Force the door...Control the door...wait to hear the glass break...then open the door slightly and bang the line off the ceiling" The reporter made it look like something new. I learned this method from FDNY's last set of fire tactics experiments. They tried many many tactics on many many fires. They did it over and over, and mostly at night. They kept and used the tactics that worked and discarded the ones that didn't. You say you never heard of this batch of experiments? It was done in about 1968-1974 in the South Bronx and called Burn Baby Burn. Thanks, Bronx firefighters of that era. I learned a lot.

Knock down a basement fire before going in? Now I think it's called Pushing a fire. Once again, thanks Bronx guys.

So the things that the FDNY study are probably nothing new, but I am sure they will tell us what worked and what didn't. I suggest we all just sit down and wait for the results and then try the ones that worked for FDNY.

For everyone out there in case you haven't figured it out, Chief Raftery is one of the most credible posters in regard to firefighting who has ever posted on this site. I wish you would post more Chief!

Looks like you may be wrong in the case of the IVFD. See the latest here:

http://rivertowns.patch.com/articles/ccccccc

Wow! Unfortu

Looks like you may be wrong in the case of the IVFD. See the latest here:

http://rivertowns.patch.com/articles/ccccccc

Wow! Unfortu

Looks like you may be wrong in the case of the IVFD. See the latest here:

http://rivertowns.patch.com/articles/ccccccc

Wow! This is such a shame! Thank you Mr. Kabelev and Mr. Natkin for speaking up about this. There truly are many good people like yourselves in the Volunteer Fire Service. We need to keep exposing this system for what it currently is throughout Westchester County so that it will be able to evlove into something we can all be proud of and that will truly serve those we are sworn to protect.

Also a big thanks to those posters on both sides of the issue who have kept this horse alive and motivated me to kep posting even though I haver been away on vacation. If this thread had been dropped we might not haver gotten to the point of having access to this very enlightening article here on EMTBravo.

Mr. Flynn not all monies are used for parades and parties in the vollie world as you claim. The donations that are made are always there for the fire fighters to take classes when they can find time in their schedule to take such a class. For you to claim that the monies are very rarely used on equipment, apparatus or training is not only false but insulting. While some depts do goto parades does not mean that the right thing is not being done. Now before you go on the defensive you should know that I do not march with any fire dept or goto very many parties. This is just my thought and opinion. And the bottom line is that I know anytime I want or have the time to I can take any class I want because the monies is there for me. And like others say the job doesn't care about career vs vollie!

Bugler thank you for your post. You seem like a genuine person who's heart is in the right place. I'm sorry if you have felt insulted by anything I have posted. It was not my intention to offend anyone. I do not have specific information in regard to your departments finances. However, I think it is likely that if you looked into it you would find that a large percentage of the money which is donated to your department is in fact used for such things as entertainment, food and beverages, including alcohol, and purchases of itmes which are not used for Firefighting purposes. This is the case in very many volunteer Fire Departments in New York State. It is my opinion that most people who donate to a volunteer fire department are totally unaware that the money is likely spent in the manner I have described.

You mentioned that classes are there for you "anytime I want or have the time to"...Don't you think that in a profession (career or volunteer of course) as important as Firefighting, the training given to members should be fairly standardized and that certain levels of training should be mandatory, and not given just to those members who"want "the training or "have time for it"?

I don't have an issue with career firefighters. I have an issue with you.

I, and so many more people, have grown tired of you only speaking up on these forums to beat your drum and stand atop your soapbox to deem all volunteer fire departments as incapable, lying, deceitful organizations. You think because you use big words and generally have ample grammar in your posts, that all of us are blind to your obvious dismay for the majority of us.

The issues ongoing in the Irvington FD are being beaten to death here with no true resolve. I agree with you that it's noble of the gentleman involved to stand for what he believes in. Just as I think anyone who stands up for what they believe in is honorable, because let's face it, too many people would rather not take a position on something and join the majority (drink the Kool-Aid, if you will).

Anyone that doesn't see you for who you really are and for the views you have of us evil volunteers is either naive or blind. We aren't perfect, not a single one of us is, but do you really, honestly think that coming on here and playing your game is solving anything? And am I alone on these forums to think that this story in Irvington is going to have little or no impact on anything?

There's so many more things in this world and in what we do that need our attention. And for me, those issues are ensuring we all are offering the best fire prevention training, fire safety education, strict code enforcement and adequate response to any emergency we're called upon - regardless of the community, department and whether or not those sworn to do these tasks is paid, period.

You're an intelligent man from what I can tell, with a wealth of knowledge and experience that could help better the fire service. Do you really think spending your time trying to dissect and disassemble the volunteer fire service is helping ANYONE?

Good day to you, sir.

if your issue is not with career Firefighters, but rather with me, why then did you make the post alleging widespread abuse of workers compensation by career Firefighters?

Also, to my many friends and acquaintences in the Volunteer Fire Service, please read my posts before buying into this guys attempt at labeling me as anti-volunteer Firefighter. As I have said before, I am not at all anti Volunteer Firefighter, but rather anti-hypocrisy, just like many members of the volunteer Fire Service, with several fine examples recently in Irvington.

Could you imagine how pissed they would be when they are told about how many guys go out on worker's compensation that aren't really hurt? Or how much is spent on overtime to cover them?

Holy cow!

it is obvious to most reading these posts what you are attempting...the very childish and weak tactic of distraction from the issue at hand, such as when a child is caught with their hand in the cookie jar, and instead of admitting fault, exclaiming "well, my sister smeaks cookies all the time and doesn't get caught!"

This thread is not about alleged abuse of workers compensation by career firefighters. Feel free to start a thread about that though if you wish. Man up and come with some facts though. By law, all of the records you would need to attempt to prove your allegation are accessible to you, unlike the unaccessible books of volunteer fire departments.

The issue in Irvington was brought to light by the courageous and ethical stand taken by a volunteer firefighter and backed up by several other courageous and ethical volunteer firefighters, so I fail to understand why you constantly choose to attack career firefighters. However, keep going for it...all it does is serve to further expose your motivations for what they are.

I guess when I get a call from a career fire department asking for a donation I shouldn't assume parties aren't held all conferences attended do not involve partying and other activities don't happen with their money

I'm not aware of any career departments who collect donations which are used for anything other than charitable works. Any partying which is done comes out of the members own pockets.

And, let's be honest. How many people donate money not only to volunteer fire departments, but other charities, not because they want to support them, but they're dying to get some tax breaks?

The people donating their hard-earned money to their local volunteer fire departments are doing one of the following;

1. Thanking those that have helped them at some point in time.

2. Thanking those that may have to help them at some point in time.

3. Want to feel good about themselves.

4. Want a tax break.

5. Are members themselves.

6. Are family of members in their local FD.

7. Can't think of a way to say no to soliciting firefighters, so throw them a couple bucks so we leave them alone.

If I missed anything, please, feel free to add to this list. But in the 20 years I have been around, this seems to be the key reasons people continue to donate.

Well, I don't know about the reasons people donate, but whenever I explain to people what these donated monies are used for, they are virtually always shocked and outraged.

I have been reading the post's still and it seems that people are beating this like a dead horse. I have to say when I was with the IFD There are many standup guys (IE Chef ruffler, and the past chiefs).

Can we please move on to something else???

Chris Moran

ex-IFD member 1996-2007

I disagree Chris, respectfully. I think it is very important that we continue to take opportunities when available to educate the public concerning the fact that monies which are donated to volunteer fire departments rarely, if ever, are used for purchase of firefighting equipment, or for training, or such purposes, but rather the monies people donate to volunteer fire departments are used for parties, extravagant dinners, vacations and excursions, etc.

Also, it is important to continue to emphasize that although there are lots of dedicated volunteer firefighters, such as Nick, who want to do the right thing in regard to being trained, prepared, and ACCOUNTABLE, there are many other volunteer firefighters who take advantage of the system, collect pensions and other perks,use the firehouses as a social club, and who have extremely little legitimate training, are unable to provide the service they claim they provide, and are basically accountable to no one.

Smokey Joe:

I am not missing the point. There are (2) issues that are going on on this message board about the patch article. The 1st one is between the following people: The village, the fire department, and with Nick. Everyone can post all they what about the law should be this or that and give your opinion on what should go down But, to resolve the issue at hand those are the 3 players.

The second issue is people are talking about "where the money" is going about donating money to the fire department. This issue is not only an IFD issue but any volunteer fire department issue. You can't tell me that every fire department uses there money for firematic stuff. You have wet-downs, annual dinners, and other stuff that clearly aren't "training or buying equipment"

If you want to change this law on the books then go talk to your elected officials

The reason why any IFD member probably will not post about the subject is due to most likely having a lawyer and once the case gets settled in a court room not in the court of public opinion

That is my 2 cents

Chris

I just think we should use every opportunity and medium available to continually get the word out to the public that when they make donations to their local volunteer fire department anywhere in New York State, the monies donated VERY RARELY IF AT ALL are used for firefighting apparatus or equipment, or legitimate training expenses, but rather these monies, contributed by hardworking taxpayers who have already contributed toward fire department budgets thought taxation, these monies donated, are used for PARTIES, and trinkets.

Whenever I discuss this with people in my community, they are almost always quite shocked to learn this. What a shame...

There is a known risk with this type of activity. Of course it is sad anytime someone loses their life doing any activity. My heart goes out to the family & friends of the victims. Overall, it is a pretty safe activity. There are more deaths associated with other recreational activities & even during everyday life. I know that this incident will prevent some people, who wanted to go skydiving, from actually going now, but if you look at the odds, now is probably the time to go do it. It is the same as when people decide not to fly on an airplane because there was a recent crash, the odds are in your favor to fly right after a plane crash.

Statistically speaking, The odds are no more or less favorable right after an accident.

The rumors you are hearing are just that...."RUMORS".........there has been talks between the City of Yonkers & Empress EMS about the possibility of having a certain number of units that would be 100% dedicated for calls within the City of Yonkers. These units would not leave Yonkers for transports, private emergency calls at nursing homes outside of the City or for mutual aid to the areas where TC covers when they do not have a crew. The "RUMORS" about these dedicated units only being fly cars is completely false. Nobody in their right mind would only have dedicated non-transporting units to cover the City of Yonkers.

These rumors are being spread around by people who are angry with the City Council about budget cuts. There is anger that is being directed toward the owners & employees of Empress, which is wrong because Empress has nothing to do with the budget cuts that the City Council is making. Anyone wanting to know the TRUTH about the discussion between the City Council & Empress can gladly call Empress and speak with Mike, Dan or Matt Minerva. I am sure that they would be glad to speak with you about it.

I sent you a PM two days ago, whoever you are...I would love to speak to you about this. I am very concerned that someone who apparently works for Empress, perhaps in a position of authority, feels as you do. Hopefully we can have a dialogue in an attempt to work this out for the sake of our patients and our members.

The rumors you are hearing are just that...."RUMORS".........there has been talks between the City of Yonkers & Empress EMS about the possibility of having a certain number of units that would be 100% dedicated for calls within the City of Yonkers. These units would not leave Yonkers for transports, private emergency calls at nursing homes outside of the City or for mutual aid to the areas where TC covers when they do not have a crew. The "RUMORS" about these dedicated units only being fly cars is completely false. Nobody in their right mind would only have dedicated non-transporting units to cover the City of Yonkers.

These rumors are being spread around by people who are angry with the City Council about budget cuts. There is anger that is being directed toward the owners & employees of Empress, which is wrong because Empress has nothing to do with the budget cuts that the City Council is making. Anyone wanting to know the TRUTH about the discussion between the City Council & Empress can gladly call Empress and speak with Mike, Dan or Matt Minerva. I am sure that they would be glad to speak with you about it.

I agree that the employees of Empress are not the problem and anger should not be directed at them. The YFD has worked well with the dedicated and professional employees of Empress for many years now. In light of the current situation and rumors, we have proactively let our members know that anger or disrespect should not be directed at Empress members. However, this was just precautionary...our people are professional and respectful as well and we have no reason to believe that YFD members have in any way expressed anger or disrespect toward Empress employees.

Many Empress employees have expressed to YFD members how much they value the YFD First Responder Program, and how many times they have personally witnessed lives being saved or positively impacted by YFD members as a result of this program, and we appreciate that. (Don't worry, we will not identify you to management of Empress for making such statements).

I would encourage both YFD members and Empress employees to continue to reach out to one another to express mutual respect and appreciation where warranted in these trying times.

We are hoping that our communication with ownership of Empress ambulance will improve going forward...

In regard to these rumors, or for any other issue an Empress employee may have with members of the YFD, or advice on how the First Responder Program might be improved, please feel free to contact me directly. (914) 377-7582.

Nicoli's decisions have left his home community with 1 less life-saver. For those of you that don't know, he has been awarded numerous life saving awards as well as a congressional level award from Congresswoman Dr. Nan Hayworth last month. It is unfortunate that internal FD politics have resulted in his decision to no longer be a firefighter.

I don't think my own community as a whole is aware of the separation between the the company and the district functions, as mirrored in one of the comments above. I certainly did not understand this for several years after becoming a FF/EMT.

When we hold fundraising events such as a "boot drive", we get dressed in our PPE and hold out fire boots for motorists to donate money to our cause.... "OUR CAUSE?" Unless they have a personal connection to the FD, I doubt that any significant percentage of the donators understand that this $ is NOT going towards training, equipment or operational readiness. This is straight up false advertising. And I am personally sickened by it. I've told my friends and family that donated money annually to the fire dept through the companies annual fund drive, to stop.

I have witnessed repeatedly over the years, tens of thousands of dollars getting spent by my company on parades, annual dinners, installation dinners, christmas parties, etc... And simultaneously get turned down for much needed equipment and stonewalled on training funds by the fire commission. Although these are two separate entities, there seems to be something very very wrong with this. I did not join the FD to drink beer either. I did not join to go to parades.

Ask yourselves: are you going through more cans of ZEP and tubs of turtle wax than saw blades and saw fuel? Our pride should not come from how shiney and clean our trucks are, but rather how dirty and trashed our gear is from having training with it so much. I believe that if we prioritize the trophies that go in a glass case over what we actually signed up to do, we are more likely to end up in a pine box.

Great post! It's comforting to know that there are people in the olunteer fire service such as yourself who have their priorities right and are willing to speak up about how horribly wrong and deceitful the system can be to unknowing taxpayers who make donations, thinking they are going to legitimate fire protection assets, training, etc., and have no idea that these monies in fact go to parties, parades, and nonsense.

I guess I just don't see it. On occasion I can follow your critiques of VFD's, but I don't see much to this one.

Fair enough...

Forgive me, as I don't participate in fire department activities of any sort, but this article seems to be missing something. By the complainant's own admissions, he is in no way forced to participate in the activities he deplores.

Edit: Quote added.

It seems that he feels the best way he can be of service to his community is to take the actions he has taken in order to expose the unfortunate reality of the situation and perhaps galvanize the community as well as other FD members behind some real change.

Came across this article on the Patch about the Irvington VFD. What's going on over there??

http://rivertowns.patch.com/articles/old-ny-law-creates-controversy-between-irvington-fire-co-volunteer#photo-406128

Kudos to Mr. kava lev! I would like to meet him. A courageous, principled man.

Actually as per Mayors office we will go down to one Battalion city-wide anytime there is a vacant spot in either Battalion Due to vaca, personal, sick or any other leave. In other words, they wLill not pay overtime to man a Battalion unless there are spots open in both Battalions at same time, in which case they will pay to keep one Battalion open.

Safety is closed as per Mayors Office

Also, as per Mayors Office, 312 and 71 are the companies which will be "browned out" when Firefighter manning drops below certain levels, but this is on hold for now. However, no reason to believe that this plan won't go forward in the very near future from what were told.

Confused? Me too...

Of course this is ludicrous but we will do the best we can with what is given us. All the while continuing to point out and document that we are below the minimum levels to provide adequate services.

I won't be commenting further. Just wanted to clear up a bit of misinformation.

Thanks! I enjoyed your post very much, lol.

Don't try too hard to follow his logic. First off, it's difficult for anyone who appreciates the rules of grammar and literacy, and second off, it's all plagiarized. So basically, all of his "thoughts" are stolen. That makes him a thief. There no lower creature in academia than he who passes off others work as his own. I just picked three random sentences in that post, and they are all, verbatim, off the internet.

http://www.ehow.com/list_6683091_negative-effects-labor-unions.html

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100921054610AAA0to0

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091019184208AA8AYGx

If anyone wants to have an honest discussion about the pros and cons of organized labor, please step up, but if all you can do is steal others thoughts and pass them off as your own, your making yourself look like a fool.

(Besides, doesn't plagiarism violate forum rules? If not, it should.)

Thanks! I enjoyed your post very much, lol.