JFLYNN

I dont know the details in Yonkers, but in New Rochelle the preference is dictated in the Federal Court Decree (vulcan case). Yonkers also has a similar decree (but I dont know if has residency in it).

Barry our Vulcan decree is similar to New Rochelle in that regard

Chief,

What if a guy was really interested and moved into Yonkers asap?

I guess there is still time to establish residency but this would have to be done rather quickly. If you are moving last minute I would strongly recommend having very credible documentation of when you moved as residency is investigated by the PD if your number eventually is reached on the list.

The qualifying requirement states that "successful candidates" who are Yonkers residents will be given preference in appointment, and nothing at all that others need not apply.

While living in the jurisdiction obviously helps, for all we know a high scoring non resident candidate might get an appointment over a lower scoring resident, based on any number of other factors.

So, if you want the job, study hard, apply and take the test!

And Good Luck!

It doesn't hurt to take the test, but there is a fee andn time involved. Anything is possible but FYI we have never even come close to exhausting the resident list and reaching the non-resident list.

Thanks for the info. New Haven seems like a progressive department. Does the Deputy work around the clock like the Battalions or just days? Also, do the Chiefs have Aides? What type of chart does New Haven work?

Thanks!

Would consolidation really make a difference in this circumstance? Whether you call 4 tankers from 4 different departments or 4 tankers from 4 different stations within one department, wouldn't the end result be the same? Even with consolidation I wouldn't think it's feasible to put all the tankers in one station but to keep them spread out.

I'm not suggesting that consolidation is not needed on certain levels, I just don't think in the circumstance of tanker response that it would really make a difference. One thing I think that could benefit from consolidation is having all the tankers on an equal playing field as far as spec's of the tankers instead of figuring out who had side dumps, direct tank fills, etc.

4 different apparatus spec committees...4 separate maintenance facilities....4 (at least) separate Chiefs...4 separate training divisions....etc. etc. etc.

Again, what is the advantage of having so many separate departments and duplication of resources if you can NEVER handle a simple house fire on your own?

A better measure of response time (with respect to manpower) would be dispatch to en route. We only know dispatch to on scene, which does appear to be 16 minutes. If it was 12 minutes from dispatch to responding and 4 minutes from responding to "on scene", it would tell a much different story than if those numbers were reversed.

This isn't to say that consolidation isn't necessary, just that the response time, along with the number units required for water supply, aren't necessarily indicative of a problem at this job.

If 7 departments are routinely called for a Private Dwelling fire, why not consolidate? You wouldn't need so many Chiefs and you would have more Firefighters. Chain of command would be more clear. Standard Operating Guidelines, Policies and Procedures, etc. would be in the same for all members operating on scene, etc.

What are the advantages, if any, to having so many small departments who are not capable of handling even small or medium size incidents on their own?

I noticed there were at least 7 different departments which responded to this single family house fire. Also noticed what seemed to be a 16 minute response time for the firsl arriving apparatus? Seemed to be quite a while until two lines were reported to be operating as well. I really don't know this area so I'm not criticizing necessarily...perhaps this response time was very reasonable considering road distance and conditions, etc.

However, I feel this fire is another glaring example of why consolidation and regionalization in Emergency Services is so desperately needed in most of Westchester County.

Thoughts?

Vista Units Operating: E141, T4, 84B1

Pound Ridge Units: 2401, E113

South Salem Units: 2451, T2

Goldens Bridge Units: 2142, T1

Bedford Hills Units: 2031, 2032, 2033, TL57 w/ FAST

New Canaan Units: T8

Ridgefield Units: T12

WEMS: 45M3

WCDES: Bat 13

A friend of mine wrote this piece for the Georgetown TX FD website, and it is posted here with permission.

Frankly, that description of a Battalion Chief's duties leaves much to be desired. I do not have the time right now but I'm sure others will chime in. The description you reference sounds like it could be handled by a scehduling clerk mostly, or even a computer program. How about including a few details in regard to showing true leadership, conducting training, developing pre-fire and emergency plans, observing your subordinate supervisors and how they operate and conduct training, mentoring junior Company Officers and Company Commanders, inspecting personnel, apparatus, facilities and equipment, overseeing building inspections, developing and maintaining relationships with outside agencies such as PD, EMS, Buidling Department, Water Department, Schools, Community Groups, etc, oh, and we might want to mention what a Battalion Chief does at a fire or emergency, no?

Two of Croton Fire Department's five companies are holding raffles this holiday season. If you would like to purchase tickets for either one, send me a PM.

Raffle #1

Washington Engine Company No. 2

2011 Holiday Raffle

Grand Prize: $2,500

2nd Prize: $1,000

3rd Prize: $500

Tickets are $10 each - only 1,000 are being sold.

Drawing is November 28th - just in time to spend it on holiday gifts!

Raffle #2

Croton Fire Patrol No. 1

2011 50/50 Raffle

Tickets are only $1.00 or your can get six for $5.00

Drawing is December 19th - just in time to buy yourself something!

Again, if anyone is interested in either - shoot me a PM.

Thanks for looking!

What do you guys use the proceeds of these raffles for?

Hello,

Some of you may know me, others may not. I am John "Will" Schowengerdt, and I want to be the best firefighter I can be. I've started the fire program at the local tech school and have my NFPA 1001/IFSAC FF1/Hazmat Ops, and am a LT at a neighboring towns explorer post. Because I don't live in the city the department I am in explorer for serves and they are not payed, I cannot run calls unless I'm at the station for drill, which are few and far between, if I'm even allowed to ride.

My parents, are both college educated, and (for the most part my mother) believes no matter what I need a college education, no matter how many times I tell her in the age of city service exams and equal opportunity employment it is a waste of time for a white male like me to spend 4 years in school.

I've come across a few compromises such as FDs with Live-in or student Firefighter or Resident Firefighter programs. I've decided that if I have to get a fire science degree I want to get the best one I can, or at least a close to it. The bottom line is, I don't want to be held back like I am as an explorer, I understand why that is but if I'm going to go somewhere I want to be treated as any other probie would, regardless of if I'm in school or not.

So here is my question, do you know of any well known/renown/respected programs like this or schools with a FD I can serve at in the area?

I should note, that the above is meant to offend no one. This is just my opinion based on what I have heard from firemen who are in the type or position I would like to be in. I could be dead wrong or have misinterpreted what they said. So I apologize to anyone I have crossed the wrong way with these words.

Thank you very much for your time and wisdom, and have a great weekend,

John "Will" Schowengerdt

P.S. Stay safe.

In my opinion your Mom is right. Get not only your Bachelors but an advanced degree now before family and work obligations get in the way. Most importantly do not expect that your experiences in firefighting and / or emergency services will be very similar to your predecessors. The one thing you can be sure of is that during your working life, the fire service, and in fact the world, will undergo enormous, and oftentimes, rapid change. A well rounded undergraduate and graduate degree will make you much more capable of anticipating and positioning yourself for the changes you will see. Don't limit yourself to a fire science degree either- you will be studying that stuff for promotion anyway- get the most well rounded education that you are able to- researching and writing, public speaking,government, history, psychology, technology, etc. are just basic skills which are necessary to function as an effective, progressive, fair leader in almost any field of endeavour. Consider a bachelor's in management, organizational leadership or some such with a minor in fire science or emergency management. After that you will have a better idea as to what to study for your Master's Degree.

Don't believe everyhting any of us in the Fire Service tell you (it's very hard to be objective about yourself)- seek out contrasting opinions, as you have done here. Spend time (such as in college) with people who have no connection to the fire service or emergency services. Learn from them too.

Realize that as a Firefighter you will be working with many dedicated, hard working people, but you will also be spending your life working alongside many who just want a decent civil service job and who do not have the same pride and work ethic that you do. This can prove to be a big shock and an enormous sense of dissapointment to a "gung-ho" young guy such as yourself. If you think you will be able to motivated these types and change their attitude, I would suggest that you first find a brick wall and bang your head against it as hard as you can a few times and make sure you enjoy that.

I'm a big advocate of regionalization but not necessarily a county level/sized system. Going from 40-something EMS agencies to a single one may create an entirely new set of problems. I'm not sure if that's the answer. In the interim, how about going from 40-something to 12 or 15? That's a huge improvement without a complete loss of local identity.

There's no disputing that people in the bigger, more densely populated cities, have access to a better system than the most affluent but rural communities to the north.

We have no system and until the players realize that and make a move to change it we'll always languish with this patchwork of good, bad, and indifferent agencies providing EMS.

Thanks Chris. What I have been wondering is...where are the true leaders in EMS in Westchester in regard to this issue? There were some insightful comments elicited from some credible authorities in the Journal News article. Why are these EMS professionals not doing more to educate the public as well as elected leaders and other governmental leaders in regard to the EMS crisis in much of the Hudson Valley? Yes, there is no system, despite individuals holding titles and leadership positions in regional EMS which would seem to indicate that there is a system.

I'm just a dumb fireman but it appears obvious that if some of these people with leadership positions in regional EMS organizations were to identify the problems and propose solutions such as true consolidations and regionalization in certain areas (certainly not an entire County, but rather communities encompassing several towns and / or villages depending on geography, call volume, effectiveness of existing organizations as well as other factors that a stupid firefighta like me can't even imagine), then positive changes would come quickly, lives would be saved, and needless suffering would be averted?

No???

Chief,

As always, excellent post and great views. I think most of us know that you can take comments from anyone.

I must agree that it can certainly be difficult to admit to faults and shortfalls, especially in your own organization. I have been in the volunteer fire service for about 13 years and about the same in volunteer EMS. Through the years and through maturing, i have opened my eyes to some inefficiencies in the volunteer services.

There are still many volunteer fire and ems agencies that can deliver their services with professionalism and in a timely manner. However, there are many that could use improvement. The first step is admitting that you have an issue. Whether the issue be with staffing, response times or training (or all of the above), the issue needs to be addressed. When lives are at stake (which they are), ego's must be set aside and something needs to be done.

Chief, you mention Ossining VAC. From what i know of them, they seem to be one of the leading VAC's in the County and have been for years. They realized that as their community grew, there was need for better coverage. They then implemented their volunteers with career staffing. OVAC now delivers BLS and ALS coverage through use of career and volunteer staffing. I applaud OVAC, as well as others, for realizing their shortfalls and adressing the issue's.

Its obvious that there are some serious issues with EMS coverage in Westchester (and beyond). Unfortunately, many of these agencies have yet to admit to these issues and continue to "go with the flow." Its not ok to not cover your calls and its not ok to rely on mutual-aid on a regular basis.

It goes without saying that there are issues. The question is, how do we fix it? Consolodation? Career staffing? County-wide system?

Thanks. You mentioned OVAC. Is there anyone on here who has approximate statistics as to the number of ALS as well as BLS shifts which are being fillled by volunteer vs. career personnel at OVAC?

Journal News

This was an excellent article on many levels. I have been involved as a concerned citizen in my town- Ossining, as well as Croton, where I have many family and friends, in pushing for improvements in EMS. I have met quite a few great people on the career as well as the volunteer side, and also elected and other community officials who are thinking progressively.

It's hard to be objective about your own organization sometimes, and I have therefore unfortunately found it necessary to go on the record with some constructive criticisms. The battle to improve EMS in my community through regionalization, paid staffing where necessary, clearer lines of authority and accountability, fiscal transparency, as well as bettter transparency in regard to response times, numbers of certified volunteers who actually respond or pull shifts, etc. continues. Many individuals have approached me anonymously (out of fear of retaliation) with serious concerns in regard to their own organization. If anyone on here has information which they feel would aid me in my efforts to have much more transparency in finances and operations of EMS agencies in the above mentioned towns, feel free to contact me.

It's all about providing the best possible service to our communities in a cost efficient (not cheap necessarily) manner. Thank you to all who labor in this oftentimes extremely underappreciated field. Please try not to read more into my comments than there really is. And please, qtip....

Oh, and the oft repeated response of "well, if you think things need improving, then volunteer yourself!" won't put me on the defensive...try to put a bit more thought into your response, thanks...

I really appreciate the offer but the fires in Yonkers produce too many btu's to be extinguished by water from Northern Westchester...

proactive qtip...I'm sure someone out there will need this...

When you really think about it, there should of been at least one additional engine on this job, ... for a second fill site for the Tankers... one of the general rules of thumb I have learned, ( 3 tankers can work off of 1 fill site, 4 - 6 tankers should have 2 fill sites. ) so with this in mind, there should of been another engine on the list...

* newsbuff - tell you what, you start on 1 side of BCR and I'll come in from the other end with T 10 and you tell me its really a 2 lane road...

* johnnyov - your incident debriefing, it might be helpful to invite some of the key members of the different areas of this call... ( the fill site, tanker off load site, and fire ground ) so that you can see points from different views... plus, I am sure its not going to be the last time we work together, so it could help get us all on the same page or provide us with a different method of operating...

* jflynn - on several other topics you have mentioned, that you do not know much about tanker operations, which is understandable, and if you ever wish to attend on of the Croton / Yorktown / Millwood yearly tanker drills, we would love to have you there and open up to any ideas you may have... let me know and I will gladly email you when we do our next...

* bnechis - you did attend our last CYM tanker drill and you did bring up some good points, one thing I took from your comments, lead Croton to get a 5 inch gated Wye, and because the tanker site was on a hill side, with no level areas near by, we tossed the ponds on the side of the road and went with the gated Wye and had 2 tankers nurse to the relay pumper, which worked out great.. thanks Barry.

* 99subi - most of the tankers in this area carry around 3000 gallons...

- as far as the worries about there being 100 FF on this job, WOW thats great... I know every single resident I spoke with, who were trying to get home or out for some reason we gald so many people were there to help out... I think it says allot of the system up here in Northen Westchester... it may not be the best, but it does work.

....... AND YORKTOWN, THIS DID NOT COUNT AS YOUR YEARLY TANKER DRILL, ITS YOUR TURN FOR THIS YEAR...

...you would be open to ANY ideas I may have??

I think it would be a great idea for a complement of folks from Yonkers or other southern Westchester department for that matter to attend a water shuttle drill. There are so many different scenarios surrounding drafting, relay pumping, uphill water supply (filling the supply line), and apparatus placement that the southern departments rarely have to encounter. When a municipal water system fails however it becomes challenging to provide continuos water supply. I would also love to see how the northern Westchester tankers would interact with Yonkers tractor drawn water tender should a water supply failure occur in Yonkers. I think the down county officers could provide valuable insight for the norther brothers with regard to other operations.

I really appreciate the offer but the fires in Yonkers produce too many btu's to be extinguished by water from Northern Westchester...

Going by the list posted above it looks like most of the mutual aid was for Tankers. I never understood tanker shuttles until I joined a department that relies on them. Its better to have too many tankers, than not enough, its no fun when you run out of water. I see five tankers listed, 3 of of which can carry a maximum of 2 or 3 firefighters (including the driver), the other two have larger crew cab areas and can hold upto 6 (including the driver). Those three smaller tankers most likely contributed nothing to manpower on the scene, as some departments want a second person in the tanker to act as a spotter and work the radio. The way tanker shuttles were taught to me (and maybe I am wrong) was one dumping at the scene, one on the way to the scene, one filling at the fill site, and one returning to the fill site to be refilled. Add in additional tankers as the distance increases, or you start to use more than one porta pond to flow large amounts of water such as a ladder or master stream devices 1 Utility (U88) is a bus, not sure if it carried manpower or was used for rehab. 3 engines called to the scene of which one was listed as the FAST. Remember, with a tanker shuttle you need an engine at the water source, and often another at the scene to supply the engine making the attack, or a ladder. Even if these departments consolidated ( which I am not totally against) chances are the same amount of apparatus would have responded.

I appreciate the primer on tanker ops as I have zero experience and hardly any knowledge in this area. However, I expected a poster to explain away this issue due to the need for a water shuttle. It doesn't seem to me that this adequately explains the need for 7 separate departments on scene, a 28 minute wait for a FAST Team, relocations from 2 additional departments, a Battalion Coordinator from DES, a total of over 100 Firefighters, Lord only knows how many Chiefs, and so on...

Since tanker shuttles are often necessary in Northern Westchester, and these evolutions require several tankers, even more reason to consolidate and regionalize, no?

I am not critiquing any specifics of the operation. I do have one question / concern though which I hope will provoke some thoughtful, respectful dialogue...why is it accepted practice that it is necessary for 7 Departments to respond to a private dwelling fire with no exposure issues, and another two Departments are relocated?

This seems to be the norm in Northern Westchester.

Might it not be time to seriously explore some regionalization and consolidation?

Boy if you all came and joined Somers VOLUNTEER fire department we would have one hell of a department seeing as you all know what is best for us!!!!

Commissioner, I have enjoyed reading this thread and I have even learned a few things from some knowledgeable individuals. It seems that you are a bit resentful of this discussion regarding your department's operations and plans for the future being discussed. Why?

Please feel free to contribute your knowledge, experience and opinions to this topic.

Oh, and qtip...

I mistakenly gave this guy a rep point. Can someone please remove it? I was just trying to see who in the world were the 7 members of this site who would agree with this post.

Uh, last I knew, Boston operated at the CFR level.

So even if they made their EMT, they could only practice at the first responder level.

Unless BFD is trying to up it to EMT. (which I've never heard of that happening.)

I respectfully recommend that you re-read the wonderful Ben Franklin quote which you have posted on your profile...then re-read it again...then, take a deep breath...now think about how old you are....deep breath again...Ben Franklin.....ok, now... may I humbly suggest that you seriously consider refraining from posting your opinions in regard to the fire service for at least several years.?

Unfortunately, it does. It costs crucial minutes, and I've even had calls transferred three or four times until they reached the right call center.

Last I heard, APCO was pushing for a GPS coordinate location mandate so the caller gets the closest 911 center to where they are calling from and that 911 Center can get an almost exact location. Given it's the FCC and it would cost the carriers millions, we'll probably see it in 20 years.

Maybe FASNY could add something like this to their legislative agenda...

At $62,000 per unit I do not think you will see many purchased. FDNY has ordered 4.

I think you're wrong Barry. It has wheels, it's red, and it's shiny...therefore it can go in PARADES...if we apply this logic to what we have seen in the past, many departments will purchase these devices, even those with no hi-rises.

Any idea why FASNY proposed something more restrictive/limiting than the existing Federal legislation?

Probably the same reason they opposed a NYS law mandating bailout ropes, maximum age for new hires, and stricter minimum training standards....etc....

If I look at this using a cost/benefit analysis it seems pretty clear that the benefits of these mutual aid runs outweigh the risks.

The risks we're dealing with are that a fire will occur at home while units are operating on the MA fire. How many fires does any village in Westchester get per year? One, maybe two? Maybe even double that? So the odds of a fire happening at home are very low on any given day. Same is true of a neighboring village. Now, the odds of them happening simultaneously in the home and neighboring villages is tiny. So the mutual aid engine and chiefs can respond with a fair degree of certainty that there won't be a fire at home. If there happens to be an incident there are other apparatus and deputy chiefs to handle it, and one of the chiefs at the MA fire can always respond (if it's mutual aid, their response time is likely to be fast). The risk score here is quite low because the likelyhood is very low and the severity is mitigated by many factors.

As for benefits, there are many: developing a good relationship with MA departments, improving cooperation, training personnel, giving incident commanders more exposure to large scale incidents (training), potentially impacting recruitment and providing a boost regarding retention (firefighters might be becoming bored and spending their time elsewhere), and most importantly, saving lives and property that might not have been saved if fewer personnel responded. This particular MA fire might double the number of fires a village firefighter has worked! Doesn't this OTJ training make for better trained firefighters? This makes the village money better spent, doesn't it?

The benefits clearly outweigh the cost. There's a plan in place to deal with reduced personnel in case something happens - even without a MA fire to blame for the less than ideal response, the reality is that the volunteer fire service is an environment where you never know if you'll get a sufficient response for any given incident. What if an incident occurred while the department was at the county training center? Should there be no departmental training?

It seems to me that the benefits of sending members on MA calls significantly outweighs the risks.

Otherwise known as the cross your fingers and hope for the best policy....