wraftery

You could write your Rep/Senator to fix the obamacare law to treat volunteer FF's fairly in light of what they contribute to the community.
or
You could ask the elected officials in DC to cover Vols for nothing, using some money they get out of things like exempting themselves.
or
You could write your Rep/Senator and to repeal ALL 2409 pages of the law they didn't read before they voted. If they don't, we'll find somebody else to vote for.
BUT
Whatever you write will probably not be even read by your elected official. It will be semi-read by a 20-year-old intern and he will send you a form letter
Didn't our forefathers fight a Revolution because they had no representation?

You could write your Rep/Senator to fix the obamacare law to treat volunteer FF's fairly in light of what they contribute to the community.
or
You could ask the elected officials in DC to cover Vols for nothing, using some money they get out of things like exempting themselves.
or
You could write your Rep/Senator and to repeal ALL 2409 pages of the law they didn't read before they voted. If they don't, we'll find somebody else to vote for.
BUT
Whatever you write will probably not be even read by your elected official. It will be semi-read by a 20-year-old intern and he will send you a form letter
Didn't our forefathers fight a Revolution because they had no representation?

You could write your Rep/Senator to fix the obamacare law to treat volunteer FF's fairly in light of what they contribute to the community.
or
You could ask the elected officials in DC to cover Vols for nothing, using some money they get out of things like exempting themselves.
or
You could write your Rep/Senator and to repeal ALL 2409 pages of the law they didn't read before they voted. If they don't, we'll find somebody else to vote for.
BUT
Whatever you write will probably not be even read by your elected official. It will be semi-read by a 20-year-old intern and he will send you a form letter
Didn't our forefathers fight a Revolution because they had no representation?

You could write your Rep/Senator to fix the obamacare law to treat volunteer FF's fairly in light of what they contribute to the community.
or
You could ask the elected officials in DC to cover Vols for nothing, using some money they get out of things like exempting themselves.
or
You could write your Rep/Senator and to repeal ALL 2409 pages of the law they didn't read before they voted. If they don't, we'll find somebody else to vote for.
BUT
Whatever you write will probably not be even read by your elected official. It will be semi-read by a 20-year-old intern and he will send you a form letter
Didn't our forefathers fight a Revolution because they had no representation?

You could write your Rep/Senator to fix the obamacare law to treat volunteer FF's fairly in light of what they contribute to the community.
or
You could ask the elected officials in DC to cover Vols for nothing, using some money they get out of things like exempting themselves.
or
You could write your Rep/Senator and to repeal ALL 2409 pages of the law they didn't read before they voted. If they don't, we'll find somebody else to vote for.
BUT
Whatever you write will probably not be even read by your elected official. It will be semi-read by a 20-year-old intern and he will send you a form letter
Didn't our forefathers fight a Revolution because they had no representation?

"We have to pass the bill to know what's in it" - N. Pelosi
Well now we know. Who could have possible thought there could be something negative buried in approximately 2409 pages (the house and senate versions are slightly different).

In NYS they are. And that's been reconfirmed by the courts a number of times

How about just do your Job and let's stop looking for ribbons and praise. I see too so often guys want a ticket tape parade for doing their Job which is usually just the Basics. I always love the Officers who tell their men "good job fellows as they're looking at the smoldering ruins of what was somebody's residence. The caliber of people becoming Career/Volunteer FFs has changed so drastically that just a guy hitting a hydrant properly has become a big deal to some or for that matter even knowing the address of the incident and how to get there has become a big accomplishment! Just do your Job!

It certainly doesn't have to be like that. But how about the next drill night they regroup and discuss it in detail? Or the OIC grabs the guys who did suck and tells them how to get their act together. I remember those days... When chiefs were chiefs and not sheep!

If you are going to train, you have to train on what you have as a FD. If your first due is two guys in a pickup truck, that's what your scenario has to start with.
Try using a control man to send in resources in the time frame that they should appear on-scene. In other words, start with the two in the pickup truck. If the next due is a mile behind an engine with four, start them in the evolution about a minute later. You have to make it as realistic as possible using the resources available. It's OK to use Phantom resources but you have to limit them to resources you actually have available to you.
You can do things like "simulate a mutual aid Truck on scene and is venting the roof" then open the training building's roof hatch. But you cant call for an air drop if the closest aircraft is 500 miles away.
Try it. Your people will get a more realistic training session and might actually like it. What's more, when they get to a fire, they know what they have available

If you are going to train, you have to train on what you have as a FD. If your first due is two guys in a pickup truck, that's what your scenario has to start with.
Try using a control man to send in resources in the time frame that they should appear on-scene. In other words, start with the two in the pickup truck. If the next due is a mile behind an engine with four, start them in the evolution about a minute later. You have to make it as realistic as possible using the resources available. It's OK to use Phantom resources but you have to limit them to resources you actually have available to you.
You can do things like "simulate a mutual aid Truck on scene and is venting the roof" then open the training building's roof hatch. But you cant call for an air drop if the closest aircraft is 500 miles away.
Try it. Your people will get a more realistic training session and might actually like it. What's more, when they get to a fire, they know what they have available

To answer your final question, Chief: absolutely!
Excellent points/questions here. Sadly, I see very few FDs approach FAST training in a realistic or honest way. And when I say honest, I mean tackling a scenario with resources akin to what they will actually be responding with.
Thank you for sharing this!

Here's a question that fits this thread.
When you do live fire training, do you
1. Train new or up and coming IC's along with your Chiefs?
2. Plan a surprise simulated Mayday to which the IC must react? (e.g. an inside officer at a given time calls a Mayday-collapse- members trapped)
3. Do you do this simulated Mayday before a FAST team arrives? (so that the 2-OUT and the on-scene personnel must be utilized)
4. Do you critique the events?
Do you think you should?

Here's a question that fits this thread.
When you do live fire training, do you
1. Train new or up and coming IC's along with your Chiefs?
2. Plan a surprise simulated Mayday to which the IC must react? (e.g. an inside officer at a given time calls a Mayday-collapse- members trapped)
3. Do you do this simulated Mayday before a FAST team arrives? (so that the 2-OUT and the on-scene personnel must be utilized)
4. Do you critique the events?
Do you think you should?

Here's a question that fits this thread.
When you do live fire training, do you
1. Train new or up and coming IC's along with your Chiefs?
2. Plan a surprise simulated Mayday to which the IC must react? (e.g. an inside officer at a given time calls a Mayday-collapse- members trapped)
3. Do you do this simulated Mayday before a FAST team arrives? (so that the 2-OUT and the on-scene personnel must be utilized)
4. Do you critique the events?
Do you think you should?

Here's a question that fits this thread.
When you do live fire training, do you
1. Train new or up and coming IC's along with your Chiefs?
2. Plan a surprise simulated Mayday to which the IC must react? (e.g. an inside officer at a given time calls a Mayday-collapse- members trapped)
3. Do you do this simulated Mayday before a FAST team arrives? (so that the 2-OUT and the on-scene personnel must be utilized)
4. Do you critique the events?
Do you think you should?

FAST / RIT is not supposed to be a special op's resource or a special team, county team, select group of folks who are trained differently or to a higher level than other firefighters, etc. FAST / RIT skills are necessary for EVERY firefighter every bit as much as any other firefighting essential functions are. When a MAYDAY is transmitted, IMMEDIATE action by knowledgeable, skilled firefighters is required. FAST / RIT operations are often required very early on during an incident, obviously we all need to be ready to perform appropriately and immediately when a firefighter requires assistance due to entrapment or medical condition while in a hazardous location. FAST / RIT training absolutely needs to be a requirement for new firefighters prior to certification. Currently certified firefighters who are not FAST / RIT certified should be required to attend the course and become certified. Firefighting is not a game, a passtime or a hobby, it's about life and death. Those who don't see it that way need to find a different calling.

You are absolutely right, Sage. I really don't want to do this again.
Before you guys start spewing FAST teams and where to get them, you really have to read the rules of engagement. Without this background information we can have no legitimate discussion.
A few knowledgeable people (Sage is one of them) try to put you on the right track, but you always ignore them and go right back to operating with your misinformation.
Read up, take a course, call PERB, do something rather than making things up and swearing you are correct.

The Chief allowed the Media to talk to him. The media did not force him to do an interview. He could have said no, or later or whatever. He did not do that, he did the interview.
The Department I worked for had rules regarding Media. Basically, only certain members were allowed to do interviews.
Why only certain members?
Because the big bosses were pretty sure these certain members would not make the department look bad.
A professional image is 3/4 of the public relations battle.

Complete silence is not the answer. If there is an incident the media is going to want to talk to someone. If no one on the fire side is going to talk to the media than they are going to talk to some PD desk Sgt. who wasn't even at the scene, or even worse some neighbor standing in the street who knows nothing of the incident but wants to see his name or photo in the paper. Each department should have a PIO (Public Information Officer) an ex-chief would make a great PIO. Listen its not just the Journal News and News 12, there is Patch, The Daily Voice, Hudson Valley Reporter and several other on-line news outlets trying to be the first to get their story out there.

Not that I would ever tell anyone to go to the Journal News for anything I was sent a link to a video of the LMFD Chief giving an interview. How about next time you want to give an interview you take the tobacco out of your mouth, you are the face of EVERY one of your members, the media is less than important when it would have take all of 2 seconds to take that out of your lip.
http://www.lohud.com/article/20131124/NEWS/311240022/Residents-rescued-Yorktown-Heights-blaze-video-

I threw the 90 secconds out there as a maximum amount of time I could comprehend and to drive home the fact everyone that no one is advocating doing it for long. So thirty seconds sounds much closer to what would be practicaly necessary. If we remember that we not trying to put it out but instead knock it down from the lawn. I don't think anyone is endorsing opposing streams.
Changing procedures for fireground ops is never easy. In the case of our recent changes to ventilation there was a month of drilling on it. We now have the ability to push out drill material on the computers which makes it a little easier to get a standard message out especially when you have over 10,000 members. The procedures then took effect on a predetermined date and time.
For those that want to sit down and hear/see it from the horses mouth I am providing the link to a UL self paced program that delves very deeply into these topics.
http://content.learnshare.com/courses/73/456883/story.html
from
http://ulfirefightersafety.com/training/

I would like to thank all those contributing to this topic with well thought out points, this is a subject,we all will have to learn more on. Just wondering in the future, if a Department adopts these concepts and their neighbors haven't yet been converted, how will .a mutual aid fire play out ?

16fire5... Cap, at first glance, it looks like we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, old vs, new and so on, but I think we are much closer than it looks. I also consider FDNY and LA County as real FDs. (not so sure about Chicago). These departments take a theory and try it out in a controlled situation. They will analyze it and discuss it until they are happy with it or throw it out. Often they will either send people out of town to observe its use or talk to whoever is the expert. Then they come out with a bulletin with a complete system for when to use it, when not to and how to use it. Then after it has been used at an actual incident, it is critique by those who operated the job, especially the IC. Take PPV on attack. FDNY has strict rules for its use, a specialized company to use it trained officers to make sure it is needed, set up and operating according to plan, and observers as required for safety. There is also a PPV safety BC to make sure it is having no adverse effects. I think that is what makes a good FD.
So what is a not-so-good FD? I think there are a lot more not-so- good FDs out there and it has nothing to do with size of the department. Let's stick with PPV as our example. Someone in the department, usually the Chief or Training Officer goes to a seminar or watches a video like the LAFD one in this thread. Virtually every word in the video is important. That will tell you when to depart from the norm or the tried and true But this department jumps on the PPV bandwagon without info like input size, output size, when it is counterproductive and so on. The Training Officer does a cursory training session and PPV becomes the first tool placed in front of the building and the fan cranked on. As I said, this happens more often than not. Why? Now that FD can announce "We are a progressive FD 'cause we always use PPV on attack and youse guys are living in the past."
My point is not to abandon all your tactics that served you (and maybe your father) well for so long. There is a time and place for everything. I have ordered a knockdown from the outside for several reasons but the situation and application must be right. As I said, along with the LA video, "Don't wreck your vent." The guys in the not-so-good FDs probably let that one go by the wayside and that is one of the major and basic principals of an outside knock-down. A little twist of the wrist will change your stream to fog and screw up the tactic too.
I agree with you too that the BTU output of the average fire has increased tremendously and lightweight trusses add to the tactical problem of today. I would like to add that we also need more Firefighters. Most FD numbers of FFs have dwindled over the years.

We'll see if any real fire depts. go for this "change." Close all the doors on the inside and hit it from the outside first. It seems to me that if you could get in to close doors, you could get in and put the fire out. This sounds like Lloyd Laymen deja vu...it works in a confined space but that's all.
Bear in mind that when you hit it from the outside, you've created steam inside. You lose much of your visibility for fire attack and search and steamed any victims that might be present.
Sometimes the tactic of an outside knock-down is a good one for perhaps a fully involved basement fire that has made the basement stairs untenable. However, if you do choose the outside knock-down, bear in mind that you may not be able to get down the stairs because it is still the chimney. You're still going to heavy steam and probably zero visibility.
Look at the picture in the article at the beginning of this thread. That's a vent hole, lad. It is only one window, so you don't know the whole situation, but your best bet is to leave it as a vent hole and go inside and bang a straight stream off the ceiling of the fire room then finish it up with a lower angled line. You kept a lot of your visibility for extinguishment and search, so just thank Mother Nature she had the wind blowing in your favor.
All these studies are under controlled conditions and you can do that at an actual incident too. Just get the fire to a manageable point, by tried and true methods, then pick up your radio and say under control.