waful

FIRST OFF: THIS IS NOT MEANT TO "BASH" ANY DEPARTMENTS! THIS IS JUST FUEL FOR THOUGHT/DISCUSSION.

I have been noticing myself getting quite frustrated lately while listening to different frequencies because I have noticed that a lot of the time (not all of the time), the first on scene Chief or Officer (paid or volunteer) does not give a scene size-up. Whether the call be for a residential alarm, reported smoke from the structure, possible fire of some sort, mva, rescue, etc scene size-ups can be very useful. It does not take more than a few seconds to tell dispatch or incoming units what you have been presented with and observed upon arrival. You can inform responders of building type (construction, stories, etc), exposure issues, visible smoke condition, etc. Giving responders the heads up can lead to a safer scene in general. It is always nice to not be caught of guard.
Now I know that at least on person will say, "You should know the building type or exposure issues for every house or building in your response area." All I can say is, chances are, there is not a single person who knows the construction type and exposures problems for every building in his or her district. Even if you do know everything about every building or house in your response area, I am sure that you would not object to a size-up or reminder. After all, even the best members, or the most senior members, or the members with the biggest ego's make mistakes and can confuse an address.
Just this weekend alone, I heard several departments get called to fires, mva's, or smoke from a structure call. I can count on three fingers how times the first on scene personnel gave a size-up that could be deemed useful by responding personal. I do not consider the common "On-scene, smoke showing, will be out investigating," a useful scene size-up. Especially if the dispatch information was for smoke from a structure. Wouldn't it be a good idea to let dispatch and incoming personnel know where the smoke is showing from (A, B, C, D sides, roof, basement, etc)?
As far as MVA's or PIAA's, scene size-ups can be VERY important. The first on-scene Chief or Officer can easily get on the radio and say, "On-scene...we have a 3 car mva w/ the occupants still inside of two vehicle, 3 walking wounded, one car overturned into ditch with all occupants out, there visible fire at this time. I will advise on extrication and additional equipment/manpower needs." This may not be a good scene size-up and may also be too wordy or lengthy. However, If I heard this while responding, I would know exactly the scene that I was responding to. Scene size-ups for MVA's and PIAA's can be given by either first on-scene FD or EMS personnel (or both). A secondary report could be given after contacting the patients that briefly describes the injuries. (Ie: "One female complaining of neck & back pain who is 9 months pregnant, two males with lacerations, one to the forehead and one to the abdomen, etc"
Has it been proven that size-ups are a waste of time or not useful?
Have first on-scene personnel become so busy that the 10 seconds needed for a "good" scene size-up no longer exist? Have new protocols been put into effect that keep these first on-scene personnel busy from the start?
Thank you to the Chief's and Officer's who consistently provide incoming personnel with detailed and useful scene size-ups!
Happy Monday!
FINALLY: This thread is not meant to bash any departments, it is simply a general observation and I feel is a thread worthy questions or topic of discussion.

You want to know what a real kick in the nutz is? We have almost 50 comments, and 4 pages of replies in a topic about an immature fire chief who hung truck nutz on his rig and defied his boss the mayor when told to remove them.
When we try to get a topic moving on this site about elevator rescue techniques, fire fighting tactics, scenarios, "what would you do" types of discussions, we get......YAWNS.
When we get a photo set of a new rig, some of us go on and on about the rig; where's the hurst-tool, where's the water cooler, we'll get the 50 comments and the 4 pages again.
I'm not sure why, but it seems sometimes the topics that should be getting the comments and the pages of discussion go by the wayside; and the ones that should get a few replies, and move on down the board into category obscurity, seem to go on forever.
What's up with that? I'm not saying conversation about the truck nutz should be over. What I'm saying is the next time one of our truly knowledgeable members comes up with an idea for a good discussion, maybe some of us should make a little more of an effort to participate and keep the really informative discussions going....
Maybe that will start happening?
In the meantime, back to the nutz.

WHEN YOU FINISH READING THE CONSOLIDATION REPORT
Get all the related info. Read the minority report and the Fairview FD rebuttal.
Then go on to the Town's website GreenburghNY.com. On the home page, the following links appear directly below the Consolidation report:
GREENBURGH NAMED 80TH BEST PLACE TO LIVE BY MONEY MAGAZINE
GREENBURGH NAMED 80TH BEST PLACE TO LIVE BY MONEY MAGAZINE - Click for story.
CNNMONEY.COM RATES GREENBURGH AS #12 IN LIST OF 6 FIGURE TOWNS
Now you can form your opinion

You shouldn't be so quick to judge a crew's response to a situation if you do not know all of the details. While scene safety is always of the utmost importance, perhaps the scene did not initially present itself as a danger. Hearsay never conveys a true account of an incident. Hindsight is always 20-20.
Instead of being so quick to judge, be thankful the crew and patients are doing well, and many positive lessons were learned.

Forget about the rest of the Country, because I live in NY. I would like to say thank you to all the stupid people that live here. I really mean it. You make my life so much easier. Everyday I have less and less decisions to make. We allow our politicians to make intrusive decisions into our lives and again I would like to say thank you for being unable to make decisions for yourself. I don't have to worry what my food is fried in, what my popcorn is cooked in, what I can and can't drink, how much salt is in my food or God forbid to add a little, soon what Doctor I can see, how many calories are in the food I am eating, etc. Except where there is profitability for the government, like taxing tobacco (if it is that bad for your health then ban it not feed the governments habit). Thank God this is not a Fire Department issue, we would have another NFPA standard, OSHA regulation, or V&T law. When we can't look out for ourselves and make good decisions, take some personal responsibility and accountability, we leave it up to elected officials to make the decisions for us.
Happy Monday Morning!

After initial knockdown with ABC as described above by 16fire5, a combination of chains and a AFFF can fromm the top works pretty well on the remaining glowing creosote. A second AFFF can at the bottom is a good addition for the hot chunks coming down.
No chimney chains? Any chains will do. Get them out of your Hurst stuff or other tools and tie them on to a utility rope. Spin them gently.
Smoke not going away after extinguishment? Could be the fire got thru flue/masonry cracks and is now into wood frame members. This could be BIG! Use Tic and feel for heat. Check entire length of chimney including underside of fireplace. Check attic. Have lines in place before opening up anything.

If you don't have a truck having one on the box is a good idea. It seems an increasing number of chimney fire become structure fires these days. Probably because chimneys get older and the mortar and other materials deteriorate over time. So sending a full first alarm assignment is warranted.
I would cover these bases.
Inside Team: Gain entry, put down a tarp in front of the fireplace, remove the contents of the fire box, report condition to command, use the TIC to check the run of the chimney for indications of extension.
Roof Team: Get up to the roof have a roof ladder or two if your not operating off an aerial or tower. Remove the cap. Drop ziplock bags with full of ABC powder into the chimney to extinguish the fire. Thin non freezer bags are thin and melt quickly to extinguish the fire. Many places have chains to clear blockages. I would use them if necessary to get the fire out but be careful the last thing you want to do is cause damage that will allow the fire to extend. Also remember it's not your job to clean the chimney for the resident just put the fire out.
Additional Staff: Standby to stretch a hoseline, search the upper floors with the TIC for extension, RIT.
I will say that I have seen it done multiple ways and the way I described it above is what I personally found to be the most effective, professional, and safe. There are multiple methods and most work but the above way is least likely to damage the chimney and possibly cause extension.
Some other methods.
Misting nozzle: Idea is to steam out the fire with a small amount of water and not crack the flue. While this works I don't see the benifit over the ziplock bags. Add this to the manuvering you have to do on the roof to get it down the chimney its more difficult and increases the chance of falling off the roof. Also unless your connections are perfect water will leak onto the roof and potentially freeze causing additional hazards.
Application of a can or dry chem up the chimney: Can may crack the chimney. ABC undoubtedly will push back a little and make a mess. Both usually work because the natural flow of air carries the agent up the chimney.
Chimney Flares: Only have seen this method used once and it was not that effective. Others may have better experience.
Hope that answers your questions. If you have more ask. I'll get on after the Jet Game.

I thought it was time to get our brains back to work with a scenario. How about for this one, the nore experienced guys keep quiet for a while, and let the newer guys show their stuff.
This is what you see on arrival. It was reported as a "kitchen fire."
What can you tell us about this particular building,just by looking at the arrival picture?
Where is the kitchen.
And, if you've got the time "Was she a tall cow?

With the hot weather upon us we need to make sure we take care of ourselves and hydrate hydrate hydrate!!!! Try and stay away from too much joe, its a diuretic. Clear non-carbonated liquids throughout the day are your best bet. A good mix is 80/20 of water to powerade/gatorade to sip all day and straight gatorade/powerade after strenuous activities (ie calls/runs). If you have a couple of bottles of water throw them on the rig at the beginning of your shift b/c we never know how long we'll be out of the barn. If there is no need for turnout coat take it off or at least open up the chest. WE CAN NOT BE OF ANY GOOD IF WE ARE OUT OF THE FIGHT!! Did I mention to HYDRATE? I've had heat stroke once before and its no fun. Remember.... HYDRATE!

How about we do away with the trophies and judging and just march and wave to the kids. Who cares if my firetruck is cleaner than yours?

Nope, just trying to figure if its the biggest, longest, most expensive most lights or one that actually was designed to fight a fire.
After reading the rules, thats not one of the requirements.
The rules are very interesting. NFPA and OSHA standards are easier and simpler. A lot of work went into these. Lets look at a few:
"Judging will not be performed within fifty (50) feet of any corner, at any sharp bend, at any steep grade, or at any encumbrance in the Line of March, except by those judging Apparatus. No judging will occur while a unit is stopped, stopping or starting."
So lets throw out safety and most dept. SOP's. Amazing that no judges have been run over.
"Talking, Waving, Laughing, Chewing Gum, Sobriety, Smoking. Ten (10) demerits each."
Yep, you never see these things at a parade.
"10- Haircuts and beards shall be neat and well kept. If the hair is not neat trimmed or is disheveled it is subject to five (5) demerits. There is no rule on hair length. The rule refers to appearance."
Beards are ok in the fire service?
"1 - All apparatus and vehicles must drive to rear of last group. Maximum spacing is twenty (20) feet from last group and twenty (20) feet between each apparatus and vehicle. Two (2) demerits each."
20 feet, sounds like tailgating to me, what does traffic law say on this one?
"16- Missing equipment will be subject to three (3) demerits each."
How do they know whats missing?
"17- Refreshments or non-firematic equipment are not permitted on apparatus or vehicles. Five (5)demerits."
So who carries the beer? THis also explains the MCI's that have occured at a few parades when everyone drops from the heat.
"18- Current dated inspection tags must be on extinguisher. Two (2) demerits each."
I guess these depts don't actually use extingushers to fight fires with
"21- Additional demerits for Pumpers: Covered hose beds Ten (10) demerits (Full covers need not be completely removed, but must allow hose bed viewing for inspection.)"
In violation of NFPA Standards.
And the one the explains why depts in Westchester can never consolidate: "Two or more Departments marching together as One Unit are disqualified."

That random "Dude" playing with the stabilizing jacks, just so happens to have stayed at a holiday inn last night, so we let him play firefighter.
Maybe we should make our drivers wear SCBA's while driving, since the motto was, Always use proper PPE.... Seriously!
This "Dude" is a highly respected member of our department and always operates with the upmost safety.
If you want to ask legitimate questions that’s fine.

Many Departments in Westchester use engine co's as F.A.S.T/ R.I.T.
i know Hartsdale E-170 has all the stuff you mentioned plus some. Fairview, Yonkers, white plains all usually use engines. Scarsdale and Greenville can use either a Eng or a Truck as fast, Croton uses a engine, Yorktown use's an engine all which have the equipment you stated. Irvington uses a rescue i believe.
Many Departments in Westchester have engines that are set up as more of a squad meaning that they carry engine and truck company equipment like saws hooks etc. also many carry extrication equipment and rope rescue equipment, not every department has multiple trucks to send out on mutual aid, many have multiple engines so sending one out of town isn't as big a deal. also many departments don't have heavy rescues so engine's have to fill the gap taking on a roll of carrying more then just hose and water.
Another factor is that how often does the F.A.S.T truck get close enough to the fire building to actually use its aerial, its rare here in westchester often due to limited access, tight streets etc. Thus using an aerial device as a F.A.S.T. company is a luxury not a necessity.
The Biggest thing isn't what apparatus the F.A.S.Team comes on its the equipment they carry,depoly, the pro-activity of the F.A.S.T members and leader and most importantly the level of training of the members who respond.

Lots of pics this month..

Not to toss a negative into an otherwise positive thread, but I feel this warrants a word of caution. I'd be highly skeptical of using a dog leash or anything "clipped" to another person. If something happens to the partner with the loop like falling into a hole the FF with the clipped on end will not be able to release it. Similarly if there was a localized collapse between the two of you. A similar tactic can be to use a piece of webbing/line that each of you holds the end of. I'd be very careful clipping anything that could not be immediately released, under emergency conditions. At 5-6 ft. I think I 'd prefer to verbally communicate, as anything of any weight, even a coffee table or kitchen chair, will slow you up as you are forced to come together and figure out how to pass. There are times when "buddy lines" should be used and others where they can be trouble.

I am asking for input for this topic. What I am looking for is a list of tips that we cant find in the books that work on the fireground. this could help everybody at sometime in thier career. No particular order at this point, if you have something share it with the rest of the crowd.
GROUND LADDERS
All ground ladders should be marked at the balance point for one man carries
Whoever has the Butt / foot of the ladder in a 2 man carry should anounce it so as you are approaching the building there is no confusion as to where it should be placed, and also so it cant get put upside down. That could never happen lol

Front suctions have a number of disadvantages:
Added cost(in the $40,000 range)
Added maintenance (we had 4 rigs with them, 3 cracked from there own weight, 1 was damaged in an MVA and when we found out the cost to repair, it was removed.
High Friction loss - with all the turns it is generally equal to 100' of hose to travel 15 feet. This reduces the amount of water that can be pumped. When we had a 6" front suction on my engine we maxed at 1,150 gpm. a 6" steamer can do 1,500 - 2,000 gpm.
In some designs it increases the turning radius
The best one is many MPO's tend to nose the engine into the hydrant when they have it. This can push the tail end out into the street. At a MA call about 2 years ago I got a great pic of an engine doing just that and cutting off the tower ladder that was now 500 feet from the fire building.
The way we keep the MPO safe from traffic is to bring the line in on the right (or left if needed) steamer connection.

I just want to make something clear. I did not post this to have it turn into the usual debate that seems to be the outcome of many posts on here..
My def. Of professionally staffed is-
To perform your duties to the highest of standards, and to always act accordingly, and to be looked up to... In a "professional" manor..
And if this is the way the dept. Runs whether it be paid or vol. Hats off to you.
As a Vol. FF (who always acts in a professional manor) haha. I thought that was very nice to see on a truck. -- just MY opinion..

Thanks Chris. Exellent points. Just for clarification our additional alarms are normally 2 Engines and 1 Truck so that would be only 12 people total (all companies are staffed by 1 Officer and 3 Firefighters). The remaining Battalion Chief with his Aide (there are two on duty at all times) and the on call Deputy (no aide) come with the second alarm so the second alarm would actually have 15 members and all additional alarms would have 12 members.
We call mutual aide once we go below 3 Engines and 2 Ladders in the City and we do try to get them back to their municipality as soon as possible by freeing up in service companies as well as recalling off duty members to man spare apparatus which are normally equipped and ready to go. We also call in an off duty Battalion Chief with Aide to man a spare Battalion car and cover the city once we go to a third alarm. One thing we are lacking which we have been fighting for years for is 24 / 7 Fire Department supervision of the civilain Fire Dispatchers which would really help in situations like last night. There was a lot of scrambling behind the scenes to keep the city adequately covered, as well as get our off duty members in and out the door on the spares, send the mutual aid back, rotate fresh crews to the fire scene, transport injured or exhausted members etc. while at the same time maintaining accountability of everyone and everything....thanks to the mutual aid departments who came in as well as cooperation from union leaders, off duty members, etc. this was all handled pretty well last night.
Although you point out the benefits of certain aspects of our manning and organization, I would state that we are actually at a bare minimum right now and I couldn't imagine what would happen if we were forced to operate with less companies, less manning on the companies, or less staffing on the administrative side.

Censorship seems harsh. That said, free speech isn't free any more than 'freedom' is. Freedoms come with a responsibility to others to show respect,restraint. To paraphrase a well known opening line in a letter addressing a complaint.... Dear Sir, Thank you for sharing your views. I agreed with you until I read your letter....
I wasn't aware people were unhappy, thought it sounded less than serious..... but if there is one more comment about "grow a pair", "man up", or "quit being a girl" you're really going to piss me off. There is nothing wrong with having a 'full set' [a.k.a. two XX's] of chromosome 23. And there is no honor in being thick skinned if it leaves the person insensitive, indifferent, unable or unwilling to show compassion. Grow a thicker skin or take a walk is more or less the same as saying, my sandbox, my rules. The only person who has a right to say that on this forum has asked us our opinion about how to keep all participants engaged. We owe him better answers.
I've never met anyone from whom I could not learn something and to whom I could not teach something, if one actively keeps an open mind and an open heart. Pushing to the sidelines members who don't meet some 'manly' standard is giving up the opportunity to teach and to learn. I hope we are all here to do a little of both.
Is there value in anonymous posts? Require everyone put their real name on what they write... and maybe try 'girling up' once in a while.

Date: 2/3/10
Time: 21:20 hours
Location: 1102 Herkimer St x Saratoga Ave
Frequency: FDNY Brooklyn
Weather Conditions: cold, light snow flurries
Description Of Incident: heavy top floor fire on arrival extended to several exposures
Reporters/Writer: ryang
Additional Info:
BedStuy, Brooklyn, NY, 2/3/10
Address: 1102 Herkimer St between Saratoga Ave and Loius Pl
21:21 hours
EMS Conditions 44 to Brooklyn, be advised I have a fully involved structural fire, Herkimer and Louis Ave, it's a 3 story MD, fully involved!
21:22 hours
Phone Box 1649 - Report of a structural fire
Engs. 233, 222, 227
L176, TL120
Battalion 57
10-75-1649 - 09:23 hours
E227: 10-75, looks like a 3 story brick, fire out the top floor!
E231
TL124 (FAST Truck)
Battalion 44
Rescue 2
Squad 252
Division 15
09:23 hours
L123 available replacing TL124 as the FAST Truck
09:24 hours
Battalion 37 available replacing Battalion 57 (Battalion 44 is 10-84, assuming Incident Command)
7-5-1649 - 09:26 hours
TL111: Give us a ticket for that Herkimer St box, we're in contact with the 44 Battalion and they're requesting a Tower Ladder.
Battalion 44: All-Hands at this time, extra engine and truck, we need 111 here to set up in front of the building!
E234, TL111 S/C
RAC2
2-2-1649 - 09:28 hours
BC44: 2nd alarm Box 1649, heavy fire in the cockloft!
Engs 277, 332, 217
E207 w/ Satellite 6
L112
Battalion 39 (Safety Officer)
Battalion 28 (Resource Unit Leader)
Rescue, Safety Battalions
Tactical Support 2
FieldCom, Command Tactical Unit
09:34 hours - Duration 13 minutes
FieldCom: Division 15 reports we have a fire at 2nd alarm Box 1649 in 1102 Herkimer St off Saratoga Ave. We have extension into 1100 and 1098 Saratoga Ave in the cockloft. Building is a 3 story 20x40. Trucks are opening up at this time, a 4th line is being stretched, fire is Doubtful.
09:42 hours
The staging area is Fulton St and Thomas Boyland St
09:45 hours - Duration 24 minutes
FC: Progress report for 2nd alarm Box 1649, at the address 1102 Herkimer St at Saratago, fire in a 3 story frame 20x40, Division 15 reports: Primary searches in 1100, 1102, and 1098 on the top floor are complete and negative at this time. Request an additional truck company to respond to the command post for overhauling, and place this fire Probably Will Hold.
TL124 S/C
09:46 hours
Car 13A is 10-8
09:51 hours
E303 is relocating to E332
09:53 hours - Duration 33 minutes
FC: Progress report for 2nd alarm Box 1649, at the address 1102 Herkimer St, fire in a 3 story frame 20x40, Division 15 reports: Primary searches are complete and negative throughout the 3 buildings. Trucks are opening up, exposing pockets of fire, all visible fire has been knocked down. Fire remains Probably Will Hold
09:56 hours
Battalion 33 is 10-8 in Battalion 44's response area
09:58 hours
L132 is 10-8 in L176's response area
TL119 is 10-8 in TL120's response area
09:59 hours
Rescue 2 is 10-8
10:01 hours
TL159 is 10-8 in TL111
10:02 hours - Duration 42 minutes
FC: Progress report #5 and final progress report for your 2nd alarm Box 1649, at the address 1102 Herkimer St off Saratoga ave, fire in a 3 story frame 20x40 with extensions to exposure 2 and 2A. Division 15 reports: fire is Under Control.

And why are you not a fan? 'Cause you don't like the way it looks? I think you need to have a better reason than that. From a practical standpoint, that rig is HUGE for NYC streets and the shorter it is, the better it is to operate. With a long bumper having no operational value, they order a short one and hope to hit less stuff.
General FYI: TL's have "Jacks" on the front bumper and rear quarters. "Outriggers" are the mid-mounted stabilizers.

As I stated in a previous thread, I had sent an email from my official Yonkers email account to the DES individual who is listed on their website as being the person, or one of the persons "in charge" of this "team". I had respectfully asked these same questions to him, explaining that as a Deputy Chief on the Yonkers Fire Department (and a former long time Captain of our Rescue Company as well as former NYS adjunct instructor teaching technical rescue), I felt that I should be aware of the capabilities (or lack thereof) of this team in the event that we might be working together at a large scale emergency. I received no response. I felt no need to pursue it further because in my opinion based on what I have seen and heard, the County Team is not a viable asset and should nort be taken seriously. I did however provide them the opportunity to begin a professional discourse and perhaps prove to me that my impression is incorrect.
The only times I have posted on this website regarding the County Team is to express my opinion after a previous poster has touted the capabilities of this "team". I have never criticized a particular individual on this "team", nor did I get involved in criticizing any particular incidents, such as the one in Hastings. The simple fact is that by any reasonable measure, the Westchester Technical Rescue Team, or whatever they are calling themselves, is not viable as a technical rescue asset and to purport otherwise is a disservice to those we are sworn to protect and may in fact cause loss of life in the future.

The chains we used to carry were a long (40' or so) chain in a bucket (later switched to a canvas bag with shoulder strap) with four or five smaller (12" or so) chains on a ring at one end. You'd yank the chain up and down as you raised and lowered it, and the little lengths on the bottom would rattle around and clean the buildup off the inside of the chimney flue.
We got rid of them some years back, and now run with the "baggie bomb" method, which has worked very well for us. We also like to carry a spray bottle (Windex-type) in the kit, and I've put out a fire or two with it. The steam produced by the mist does a great job without damaging the flue. And it's WAY cheaper than a chimney nozzle. I even put one out once with the homeowner's Windex bottle, before the rig arrived. She looked a little startled when she looked in and saw me rummaging under the kitchen sink. I said, "I need to borrow your Windex." She was like, "Uh - okay." then I dumped out the Windex, refilled the bottle with water, and she started laughing when she caught on.