ny10570

Understood, although I think there's a little apples and oranges going on between my workplace and yours.

There is a legal term, I think called "caveat superior" (My HS latin teacher would croak!) that says that if you are working for someone and do what they tell you, then HE is on the hook for what you do.
Sympathomedic, you are correct the name of the Doctrine is RESPONDEAT SUPERIOR (let the master respond) it is a legal doctrine holding "employers" liable for the wrongful acts of their agents (employees). It is also known as VICARIOUS LIABILITY; an employer is answerable for the tort (negligent acts) committed by employees. Two things must exist for this tort to hold up 1. A master-servant relationship must exist between the employer and employee. 2. The wrongful act of the employee MUST have occurred within the SCOPE of his employment. Once again get a hold of your department's policies and or SOP's and stay within the scope. PFD there are no stupid questions, be safe

If you are on scene with the FD you act as a firefighter. Your agency is not an EMS agency and puts themselves at risk if they put you to work as an EMT. In NYC all firefighters whether they are EMTs or Medics on the outside operate as CFRs on an assignment. You should address this with your dept to establish a definitive policy. The district has a lawyer, put him to work.
I don't know of caveat superior. I know caveat emptor, Let the buyer beware.
The California case is from 2008 and was specific to California because the decision spoke directly to the language of the law. That being said, a similar decision could conceivably come down in NY or they could find their own reason to hang you out to dry.

An EMT would not have a duty to act if they are operating as a firefighter in a non ems agency. The duty to act applies when you are with an agency with the authority to respond. His FD has no authority to respond to medical emergencies.

Most Americans believe that they will never have a fire and the only reason they have insurance is because the bank requires it to get a morgage.
Insurance never makes you whole. You can't get back what was lost, including the 2-3 years you will be rebuilding (and fighting with the insurance company).
Also, most people are against sprinklers because they do not understand how they work. They think every head goes off with just a little smoke (thanks to hollywood) and that the water damage will be devistating.

They are absolutely ridiculously handcuffed with what they can do. Simple things like down grading calls get handled swiftly and severely if they are wrong. They are their own little kingdom with an operations guide that regular field members cannot get access to. We definitely have some great dispatchers and when they're on the air, especially in the Bronx South it is a night and day difference. Too bad they're outnumbered by dead weight.

While that number is being thrown around a lot, even most sprinkler advocates have to admit it's no accurate for many/most areas, yet. This may be the average in areas where sprinklers have been mandated for many years, PG Co. MD, Scottsdale AZ, a some others. The places this pricing is accurate in tend not to have unhydranted areas or areas of poor water pressure where other tanks and pumps may be required.As advocates of home fire sprinklers we warn others to be honest about their costs rather than pitch the lowball number and find that no bids even come close. In our area the systems run about $4-8 per square foot with the larger homes seeing smaller per sqft. prices. One hopes that as more contractors come on line, more cities mandate their use, etc the prices will fall. But be careful using the $1.61 figure publicly as even unintentional misleading will have disastrous affects on credibility. The same goes for telling people they'll save the cost in their insurance, which gives on average (here) 15% off for sprinklers, that only is taken off the fire portion of the policy which is not that large to begin with.

If you are on scene with the FD you act as a firefighter. Your agency is not an EMS agency and puts themselves at risk if they put you to work as an EMT. In NYC all firefighters whether they are EMTs or Medics on the outside operate as CFRs on an assignment. You should address this with your dept to establish a definitive policy. The district has a lawyer, put him to work.
I don't know of caveat superior. I know caveat emptor, Let the buyer beware.
The California case is from 2008 and was specific to California because the decision spoke directly to the language of the law. That being said, a similar decision could conceivably come down in NY or they could find their own reason to hang you out to dry.

I care.
All too often, I have operated at fires of all types where the IC has been one who preaches and practices, minimum amount of water to put the fire out..and by put the fire out, i mean, once the flame is gone, out...
I myself am somewhat more aggressive...I feel that less damage is done by using enough water to confirm the fire has no threat of reignition, than the damage done by a rekindle. Don't pussyfoot around it....dump the tank and be confident!
I think what Barry wrote should be tattooo'ed to IC's hands as a constant reminder.
Rekindles exist...but I will do everything in MY power to make sure they don't...on MY watch.

How many home owners realize that they're in a non-hydrant area? Of those that do, how many know what exactly that means for their fire protection? My father is an educated man rarely completely ignorant of a subject. He long ago realized that in the event of a fire if it goes beyond that first room he prefered it burn to the ground to save him on demolition and waste hauling costs. He was also well aware of the pitfalls of volunteer fire protection and had his home well insured. This was all many years before I became a volley. The one consolation he took was there is a hydrant 50' from our propety. Only after I joined the local FD did we find out how useless that hydrant was.
The point to this ramble is the average home owner has no idea. They see an FD full of trucks a few blocks away and assume they're protected. Since FDs are the last to advertise their ineptitude who is going to tell the homeowners they're on their own?

How many home owners realize that they're in a non-hydrant area? Of those that do, how many know what exactly that means for their fire protection? My father is an educated man rarely completely ignorant of a subject. He long ago realized that in the event of a fire if it goes beyond that first room he prefered it burn to the ground to save him on demolition and waste hauling costs. He was also well aware of the pitfalls of volunteer fire protection and had his home well insured. This was all many years before I became a volley. The one consolation he took was there is a hydrant 50' from our propety. Only after I joined the local FD did we find out how useless that hydrant was.
The point to this ramble is the average home owner has no idea. They see an FD full of trucks a few blocks away and assume they're protected. Since FDs are the last to advertise their ineptitude who is going to tell the homeowners they're on their own?

How many home owners realize that they're in a non-hydrant area? Of those that do, how many know what exactly that means for their fire protection? My father is an educated man rarely completely ignorant of a subject. He long ago realized that in the event of a fire if it goes beyond that first room he prefered it burn to the ground to save him on demolition and waste hauling costs. He was also well aware of the pitfalls of volunteer fire protection and had his home well insured. This was all many years before I became a volley. The one consolation he took was there is a hydrant 50' from our propety. Only after I joined the local FD did we find out how useless that hydrant was.
The point to this ramble is the average home owner has no idea. They see an FD full of trucks a few blocks away and assume they're protected. Since FDs are the last to advertise their ineptitude who is going to tell the homeowners they're on their own?

That may be so, but just because a city leader says they have no money, doesn't mean they actually have no money. They have been known to exaggerate the severity of their city's financial situation on occasion in the past. And sometimes "no money" means no money for stuff that they don't want to spend money on - like their employees.

How many are in hydrant areas and will do anything to get rid of them?

How many home owners realize that they're in a non-hydrant area? Of those that do, how many know what exactly that means for their fire protection? My father is an educated man rarely completely ignorant of a subject. He long ago realized that in the event of a fire if it goes beyond that first room he prefered it burn to the ground to save him on demolition and waste hauling costs. He was also well aware of the pitfalls of volunteer fire protection and had his home well insured. This was all many years before I became a volley. The one consolation he took was there is a hydrant 50' from our propety. Only after I joined the local FD did we find out how useless that hydrant was.
The point to this ramble is the average home owner has no idea. They see an FD full of trucks a few blocks away and assume they're protected. Since FDs are the last to advertise their ineptitude who is going to tell the homeowners they're on their own?

Its happened to other cities and counties. Politicians refusing to make hard choices, bad bets, and tough economics can quickly sink a fagile budget.
Yonkers is close to being taken over by the state, Nassau is run by NYS, and a multitude of towns cities, and counties across the country are in similar positions.

The term "Re-Kindle" should never be used.
How can a fire that is extingushed, "Re-Kindle"? It can not.
When a fire occurs in the same structure hours (or days) later, one of three things has occured:
1) The arrsonest returned to complete the job
2) The fire dept. did a poor job of overhaul and missed something (most common with a smells & bells or a small "room & content" incident)
3) The fire dept. made a determination that after a major fire (often with collapse) that there were no exposure issues and no way to do overhaul (without heavy equipment) and often it was in the best interest of the safety of the members to regroup and wait.
Based on the size of this fire...sounds like #3. so it was not a "Re-Kindle".

How many home owners realize that they're in a non-hydrant area? Of those that do, how many know what exactly that means for their fire protection? My father is an educated man rarely completely ignorant of a subject. He long ago realized that in the event of a fire if it goes beyond that first room he prefered it burn to the ground to save him on demolition and waste hauling costs. He was also well aware of the pitfalls of volunteer fire protection and had his home well insured. This was all many years before I became a volley. The one consolation he took was there is a hydrant 50' from our propety. Only after I joined the local FD did we find out how useless that hydrant was.
The point to this ramble is the average home owner has no idea. They see an FD full of trucks a few blocks away and assume they're protected. Since FDs are the last to advertise their ineptitude who is going to tell the homeowners they're on their own?

Greenburgh is even more progressive in their medics are dedicated to EMS. There is no chance they won't be available because they're on a car stop or other non-ems call. Their medics are also available 24/7. Whitehall has two and are hoping for a third that is available whenever they happen to be on duty? That's not really a service worth bragging about.

Yonkers PD had ALSFR before they were called ALSFR. What is now the ESU was known as "e-rigs" and the ESU cops were all trained as paramedics and responded with the contract ambulance service. This was back in the 70's and 80's when paramedics were fairly new (at least in this area). I believe some of the Yonkers medics were in Jacobi's early medic classes and were in the first medic class at White Plains Hospital for sure.
Guilderland and other PD's up in the capital district have also been providing police-based ALSFR for years.
Though not that common, it is certainly not unprecedented.

Not at all unique or different from Westchester. Greenburgh PD has been providing ALSFR and BLS ambulances for as long as I can remember.

I wanted to drive to MetroTech and choke the PD dispatcher last night. Rude, nasty, and full of the wrong info. Take this job. " Pelham Parkway on the IRT #5 for a man with a gun breaking car windows under the station." I answered for the job, and asked the dispatcher to call the complainant back, as "Pelham Parkway is an underground station, there is no parking underneath." Finally after 3 or 4 times of asking the dispatcher gives me the cross the cross streets of Lydig and Bolton. That intersection is close to Morris Park on the 5, and 49 Crime had been there for over 10 minutes already. Later, on another job, the dispatcher confused Morris Park on the 5 train, with Morrison-Soundview (on the 6 train) throwing in a booth number from the 2 train just to add to the confusion. Both times, the dispatchers copped attitude when they we questioned for more info to try and straighten things out. They should go back to limited duty cops as dispatchers, not these "trained" fools.

None of us need that extra crap. We still have to get there, so you can add all of that along the way. "Pt mle 60 yrs can't breeth" is all I need to start going. If along the way you want to tell me he's 'coofing flem, 'wheezeling', 'dissy', 'has the sugar', or whatever else can be gleaned from the caller and scrambled by the CRO, thats great. I'd still rather have someone with zero medical training but 8th grade reading level following the EMD cards and updating me.

Hard to belive but triage tags are not required equipment as listed in part 800. Executive order #26 signed by then Gov. G Pataki designated the "ICS as the state standard command & control system during emergency operations." Later (1998) Kits were distributed by NYS DOH EMS to VAC's, REMSCO's, Course sponser's etc. and many still have those original brown MCI kits in the bottom of the outside compartments,you know, along with the other never touched or used equipment such as vests, flares, etc. I wonder how many actually have looked in the kits, much less had a drill in their use.
I just had a discussion with my EMT class on MCIs, here's what I came up with. The average capacity of a metro north car is 100, the eve commute runs about 8-10 cars. Thats 800-1000 people thats more than a plane crash. Lets just say that by the time the train reachs say Katonah in Westchester or Harriman in Orange county they have half of that capacity 400-500. Train derails. Lets say that just a third of that number are injured. The rest were lucky (real lucky) that still 125-150, lets say half of them need ambulance transport, the others are walking wounded and can be transported by bus (if your community has thought that far ahead & can mobilize) that's 62-75 bodies. Two streacher patients in each ambulance....30-40 ambulances!!! Certainly commercial services will have to be used but lets think about command & control. I've seen many VACs hold MCI drills (which I admit is less than most VACs do) and they always seem to have enough resources to deal with their pt. load, amazing. Sorry for the rant, but I think many VAC & county leadership just don't think past the day to day problem of just staffing one ambulance, and we should...thats our business & our community depends on us for it.

None of us need that extra crap. We still have to get there, so you can add all of that along the way. "Pt mle 60 yrs can't breeth" is all I need to start going. If along the way you want to tell me he's 'coofing flem, 'wheezeling', 'dissy', 'has the sugar', or whatever else can be gleaned from the caller and scrambled by the CRO, thats great. I'd still rather have someone with zero medical training but 8th grade reading level following the EMD cards and updating me.