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I saw nothing, smell nothing so it must be safe right?
Before reading the other responses all I could think of was would we have labeled this if they did not survive this incident. I bet its not "great job".

I don't see any reason why anyone, in this case it appears the PD, should enter a home full of CO. They just create more problems for other responding personnel.

So first things first. Is there any update on the Rye cops who were transported from the CO call in Rye? I hope they are recovering well.
Is there anyone who can fill us in on this incident? On scene members who can help those who still believe this is a routine call. I am pretty sure I can figure out how things went here after responding to more CO calls than I can count. If this went the way I think it went it could have gone south real fast for those RPD members.
Once in a while the pot does need to be stirred or we will burn the food!!!!

It is just an EXAMPLE. Yes, the nation is smaller than the State of Maine but WESTCHESTER, NASSAU, SUFFOLK, PUTNAM, ORANGE, DUTCHESS are also a lot smaller than the State of Maine so why don't we do something about it? Imagine if the 300+ departments in these counties became county sized regional departments???
The things that could be accompished would be amazing!

On April 1st 2013, Scotland's 8 regional Fire & Rescue services were merged into a single national department. The 8 regional police services were also merged into a single national service.
The 8 regions were originally made up of many smaller depts. but during and after world war IIthey were merged.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21938388
Wow, 8 depts are too many for an entire nation so they are merging them into 1. We have 59 in just our county and they all believe that their community would not survive without them. Infact we have whole towns with 8 departments. What was most interesting is their reasoning for the merge, they wanted to save money, but most important they did not want to reduce services. All over America we see depts cutting staffing, cutting companies, cutting houses, cutting salaries and the number of volunteers dropping, but still no one is willing to merge to make sure the services delivered in the field remain strong? So this merger will save enough money to maintain every company, every station and the minimum manning on an engine will remain at 6 (1 officer, 1 driver & 4 firefighters).We really need to rethink how we do this and why we do this.

Didn't Syracuse do this years ago with their "Midi's"?
The key is that the company must remain as functional at all of it's primary tasks, when this can be accomplished, I see the added value, but I don't buy make "small sacrifices" in effectiveness as the results can cost firefighters or civilian lives and property.
Less hose means a chance at slower continuous water supply or chances of stretching short. Less water on board means less time before the sustained water must available or loss of water. Shorter ladders? Fewer tools? All equal less capability while the crew is on a "lesser" apparatus. Unless other apparatus are added to the area, others are forced to cover new functionality gaps, causing a ripple effect when just one company is reduced in capability. Sure we do this many times a day when crews are on an assignment and unavailable, but that doesn't go away, it just gets piled on to.

If their functionally "very capable" why not replace the larger engines with these smaller units? The same reason that cannot be done, is why these units reduce the company's overall effeciveness when they're in the Ford and not the Spartan.

I guess I don't see the point? This article claims that the new units cost about $200k and a full engine about $600k, the smaller units could extend the life of teh full engine by 2-3 years? Is the annual cost of a full sized engine $75-100K? What about housing and maintining the new units? What does that cost? More space is required to house another peice, more training, more equipment, more maintenance and it takes the same crew off a more functional peice reducing their effectiveness while their between calls. Maybe I'm totally off base as it seems the midwest and southwest have trended this way for a while, but I can't see how it can be chearper or more effective.
Oh and my original thought: The firefighters want this? Or does the adminstration/beancounters want this? Amazing how sometimes spending more money to make it look like your cutting expenses appeases City Hall.

I agree with everything you said. My point is that YFD is understaffed, but NR & WP are running with 3 per rig. when 1 remains in the street to pump. That leaves the officer and ff to lay hose from the standpipe to the fire apt. Now who mans the valve, the officer or the ff and what if the ff is a probie (do you send him in alone?).
In either case 1 in an IDLH atmospher is a problem.
The study shows that pairing up 2) 3 man units (6 members) is less effective than 5 man companies.

I think the point here is that any standpipe equipped building whether 6 or 40 stories cannot be handled properly with current staffing. Yonkers has 4 per rig, 1 remains in street to supply system which in itself is difficult task for 1 member, the Officer and 2 firefighters are left to handle hose lay and one member must remain at standpipe valve to supply line. So in essence 2 are manning the line in a high rise fire, with the possibilty of long hallways and wind driven fires, plus not enough line carried into building by the 3 members. So yes Yonkers firefighters are at a big disadvantage in high rise operations. How long would it take for the 2nd engine to pair up and assist with line placement, this would add more members to facilitate stretch, but in some sections it may be a while for this to occur due to long responses. Union has some real issues here but is there an answer that allows high rise operations in Yonkers to be conducted safely.

I have still yet to find one incidence of injury caused by a faulty helmet. How many of you knew that a motorcycle helmet should be disposed of after it falls from more than a few feet? How many times have you dropped your helmet at work? Our necks are not designed to absorb impact, not at all, so it doesn't matter what kind of shell, or what kind of suspension you have, none of it will do a lick of good if you are wearing a helmet. Our helmet was designed to keep water off our necks, and heat off our scalp. Only in the 80's did the introduction of an impact cap inside the leather helmets start the transition to this standard we have today. Anything short of a iron beam coming down directly on a leather helmet which your least worry would be an intrusion of the iron in to your skull, but the severe impact to your skull and spine. This is just another hole in the traditions of the greatest job in the world. Pretty soon it will be salad bowls for everyone (helmets worn in california.)

We all know what this job is about. This is one place that tradition comes into play in a meaningful way, and I don't care to hear from the naysayers and that "200 years of tradition uninterrupted by progress. I'm not talking about tactics and strategy, fog vs. straight, PPA. Those things are not tradition. A firefighter''s helmet is a symbol of who he is or who he was. Whatever style of helmet he wore is not the operative here. The symbolism here is that it is HIS helmet. Wearing this helmet he has accomplished things that the average person could not ever fathom. He has seen life and he has seen death. He calls anyone who wears similar headgear his brother because he knows where that person has been. If a firefighter meets his death on the job, it is his helmet that leads him to his funeral service.
My father passed away, non-LODD, when I was 15 years old. His helmet was solemnly and ceremoniously presented to me by one of his brothers. When my first son got on the job, I presented him with that same helmet. When my second son got on the job, I presented him with my old helmet. Those helmets are kept in places of honor in their homes. Why? Because that helmet says "That's who we are."
Politicians, City Managers, the general public, and unfortunately, some firefighters don't understand the symbolism. As for the rest of us, "You can leave this job, but you can't leave this job behind"
So, then, is that stinky, strange-looking hat worth $100?

Today I have my UnApproved NFPA/OSHA Leather helmet that I was wearing when I decided to fly like a bird off a ladder from the second story window. I landed in about a 3 foot wide alley and my head apparently struck a three foot high concrete wall. Came down with airpack and helmet on. Apparently, my head hit that wall when I came down. Thank God for that helmet I was wearing. But at the time it was NOT approved and had no inner shell molding. I ended up with a few injuries from the fall, but NO Head Injuries. That helmet had been about 15 years old at the time. Even though it was an UNapproved helmet according to the NFPA and OSHA, "it did its job well".
I still have that busted up "Battled helmet" to remind me of what a good job a 1970s leather helmet did for me.

There is nothing wrong with having helpers. But there are a few problems that come up:
1) Do not call them firefighters if they are helpers. When a department tells the community it has a 100 firefighters (or members) it never tells them that only 10 or 20 or whatever the number is are actually going to enter a burning structure to save their kids, parents, wife, etc. The community thinks it has great protection, when maybe it needs to reconsider its system.
2) I have seen incidents with 100's of "helpers" (most were just buffing) and they stood around watching someones home burn to the ground, while 4 FIREFIGHTERS tried to stop it. If you have more helpers onscene than firefighters, then they are not helping.
3) I find accountability at most fires is very very poor at best. Throw a lot of extra helpers in and it gets worst.
No they do not have to be, but they are often much better pump operators if they have spent so time on the nob and gotten bounced around or not given enough water by the MPO.
Yes you can but what % of the dept is a firefighter and what % is a helper. While its nice to have the extra hands outside, 99% of fire depts do not have enough firefighters to do the hard part.
Which in my mind means other communities get a better response from your department, than your own community.

It appears that the original question really refers to Mutual Aid. I can tell you that the IC doesn't want to hear he has an engine or truck coming only to learn upon their arrival that they cannot be used for some of the requisite tasks. If you guys use exterior people in your hometown, all the better, we do too (not career personnel of course). But our mutual aid pact requires engines and trucks respond with 5 Interior qualified personnel. The IC merely knows he has a a company coming and that he can assign them to whatever he needs. As far as we're concerned non-interior firefighters cannot count as company strength. We do not have any other career staffed companies around us, but if we did I'm confident we'd work them into our alarms earlier than closer VFD neighbors for the consistency alone. We have some great volunteer M/A partners, but over the course of time consistently staffed apparatus in a consistent time frame has not been proven to be a reality.

Ryan - you are copmparing a CAREER job with a vollie (our) department...so yes - every firefighter (read; EMPLOYEE) needs to be the same. If a rig pulls up at any emergency, they are staffed with firefighters and an Officer...period.
I remember going to a chimney fire on the Truck a few years ago....your Dad was driving...then it was me (full gear, ready to go)....and Thumper...and that old guy who always hangs out at the firehouse who I can never recall his name. (Not Car 3's Dad).
In any event - there you have a "4 man truck" responding to a fire.....how many were actually capable of firefighting? Bear in mind I was the ONLY one on board wearing turnout gear. See the difference?
I agree - non-interior members are useful on OUR scenes, but for departments of a more urban climate, such as those the posters above are members of or have retired from - it doesnt cut the mustard..Career departments are held to higher standards. They HAVE to be...hell - I failed the physical agility to get on the job by 5/10 of a second; a half a flocking second! Done...off the list.
In the vollies, we call that "close enough".
Another example - how many career firefighters can go an entire career (20 years) without ever getting trained to operate or drive an engine? Thats unheard of - all employees must be trained to the same standard and that includes being a driver of need be.
I am in my 23rd year....and I have never been qualified on an engine...never had the desire too, never been forced too.
And dont get me wrong Cap - I am really agreeing with you - just trying to show the other side and why these guys are so firm in their statements.
And I say BOY.

If they have the same training why the distinction?
All the firematic jobs on the fireground should be done by firefighters. Not by "helpers", not by cops, and not by public works.
Your thinly veiled contempt of injured FF designated temporarily as light duty is unwarranted too. None of the guys I know who are on light duty want to be for a minute longer than necessary and warranted by their injury and they are contributing to the department even if not on the fireground while they're working. What's the problem with that?

Guys that are on light-duty are generally recovering from an injury or illness and have no business being on a fireground.
They have the same training as any "full-duty" FF so your attempt at a comparison is flawed.

"Professional", now here's a word misused more often then once. "Training" for the most part nothing more then a paper trail to cover ones a**. Ive seen both Career and Volunteer members with enough certificates, diplomas and training hrs. to stretch a mile and they're friggin clueless, like a deer in headlights when they're on scene. Not everyone can apply what they've learned or for that matter even want to try. Doesn't matter whether you have an IAFF sticker on your car or "Ex Chief" on the back of your turnout coat you have to want to learn and apply yourself otherwise it's for naut. JMO.

Civil service does not have a driver or exterior only. They require all our members to be interior firefighters.
If you have enough firefighters responding to your incident, you do not need "outside" helpers. If you do not have enough then yes it would be nice. As another poster said, we pick up our own hose.

Why would you classify them as a Firefighter?

Come right out and say who you're talking about. When the department with the "20+ minute response time" can be on the scene quicker than the one that has a firehouse just outside the city limits, it should help paint the picture of what is going on here.Before you say it'll never happen, it already did.
This business isn't a game, and if you think it is, you're cheating the citizens who deserve a professional fire department as well as your Brother Firefighters and their families who are expecting the firefighters to come home in one piece.

An IC at a job, career or volley shouldn't have to find out the qualifications of the mutual aid he called.They should be qualified to perform the tasks assigned to them,have a officer able to make decisions and get the job done and not be another thing the IC has to worry about he's got enough already. Carreer depts in Westchester call each other cause they know what they're getting.

Seems to be plenty of Door Dancers that come mutual aid, from my experience.

Saw this while searching the web....made me instantly hungry.
Anyone?