JJB531

Convoluted? Seemed pretty concise and in-line to myself and a couple other members here. Wikipedia... Hardly... It's from taking the time to educate myself so when discussions like this take place I can at least articulate my stance with some level of insight and maturity instead of sounding like someone who's not getting his way and resorting to personal attacks.

Good to see Officer Daniel Edward Quilty finally reconized for his heroicand selfless actions.
http://www.lohud.com...osthumous-honor

Do these count as grabs/rescues? I would imagine so given the brothers posing for the cameras with their saves. But humans, trapped in a smoke filled apartment getting saved by the cops=no good.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/injured_baby_hawk_saved_in_queens_HEEHcI9jPIzK9ZpZQbOztL
http://animaltourism.com/news/2010/04/04/fdny-saves-three-baby-squirrels
http://www.catster.com/lifestyle/fdny-firemen-on-lunch-break-save-brooklyn-kitten
Haters gonna hate.

Is it? I don't know... I don't look at EMS like a businessman, I look at EMS as an emergency medical provider, so I have a hard time justifying or making decisions based on the finance side of the "business" of EMS. Could it be a consideration... I guess yes, it could, but now we're letting money determine what level of care a person receives when they all 911. Interesting question... I would say it shouldn't be a consideration, but I can definitely see the other side of the coin as well.

Is it? I don't know... I don't look at EMS like a businessman, I look at EMS as an emergency medical provider, so I have a hard time justifying or making decisions based on the finance side of the "business" of EMS. Could it be a consideration... I guess yes, it could, but now we're letting money determine what level of care a person receives when they all 911. Interesting question... I would say it shouldn't be a consideration, but I can definitely see the other side of the coin as well.

Why the FD? Why not DPW? Whose resources are not important enough to be tied up? Why would the FD, if they have no other EMS responsibilities automatically be the "go to" for a human assistance call? Is EMS not really the agency most appropriate to deal with individual's bodily needs? And in the end once you've sent the engine and they find EMS is indicated, you are then calling EMS. So two agencies are involved when only one can cover the broadest spectrum of services that may be called for.While I'm sure you have great dispatchers, there's a big difference between what they're told and what the case may really be. So if the dispatcher get's bad info from the elderly caller and care is delayed, I guess you call it "their fault"? Too bad the same people that seem to fall and need help also have a propensity toward weakening mental acuity. While I'm sure many of us might want to stay in bed or not have our meal interrupted, I'm betting far fewer Fire based EMS services would ditch these calls than any other service model.
If your system is overtaxed to the point these calls routinely delay true emergency responses, maybe you're system is broke? If you aren't doubling and tripling calls routinely, you have little excuse to try and pass these runs off.

Okay, but not everyone has the luxury of affording a full time care giver or nursing home.

So.... We should leave the elderly woman who's incapacitated on her bedroom floor there to rot? Where do you volley/work? I want to make sure I don't have family that lives there.

A VOLUNTEER system should function no differently then a paid system. It's about setting a standard of care that should be followed by all EMS systems, whether paid or VOLUNTEER. The person on the floor shouldnt get a lower standard of care just because they're served by VOLUNTEERS. One police officer isn't enough to pick up someone off the floor. Now you have to send 2 cars. Some jurisdictions only have two cars on patrol to cover an entire village. It's okay to leave a whole village without police protection just because the EMS system is VOLUNTEER?

So.... We should leave the elderly woman who's incapacitated on her bedroom floor there to rot? Where do you volley/work? I want to make sure I don't have family that lives there.

A VOLUNTEER system should function no differently then a paid system. It's about setting a standard of care that should be followed by all EMS systems, whether paid or VOLUNTEER. The person on the floor shouldnt get a lower standard of care just because they're served by VOLUNTEERS. One police officer isn't enough to pick up someone off the floor. Now you have to send 2 cars. Some jurisdictions only have two cars on patrol to cover an entire village. It's okay to leave a whole village without police protection just because the EMS system is VOLUNTEER?

Was there a large crowd that required the attention of 4 Troopers? Was there an overwhelming traffic condition that required 4 Troopers to mitigate it? Whats the function of Fire Police? Who was stopping crime? I would assume the other Troopers and local law enforcement working who weren't assigned to the fire scene. Helping citizens in need? Really? They were not only helping a citizen in need (the property owner) but helping the FD as well.
Keep trying...

I understand your thought reasoning, and it's not necessarily incorrect. As a medic the last thing I want to do is go to a lift assist because most don't require ALS intervention, but...
#1 - we can't always play what-if's. I could turn around and say what if the lift assist patient did require ALS intervention and now you just delayed the medic 15 minutes because "what if a more serious call comes in", and yet that call never comes; is that fair to the person who called 911 for our services? I've personally responded to a number of lift assists that ended up being cardiac arrests.
#2 - why do we send medics to every call? Who says we have to send the medic to a lift assist? If proper EMD is done, and no flags are raised for a potential for this to be ALS, then we may be able to get away without sending an ALS unit and keeping that unit in-service for the "what if".
What if we take an FD rig out of service and a fire comes in? What if we take a patrol car out of service and a robbery occurs? We can keep on "what-if'ing" but someone's gotta pick grandma up off the floor.
We can only treat one patient at a time, one call at a time. As EMS managers, they need to ensure that their systems run efficiently with the manpower and staffing levels they have to work with without short-changing the public who deserves the services they require.

The Troopers were the first to arrive. Yes, the police often respond to emergencies in the rural parts of the state. This being a Friday afternoon, just before Christmas in a sparsely populated town with a well hidden from road/view structure the fire had a lot of headway before it was discovered. The person who discovered the fire actually drove to the volunteer firehouse to report it, found no one there and used the emergency phone to notify 911. The fire department was finally called, and almost immediately called 3 more departments under mutual aid for assistance. There is not a career fire department within sight of southern Columbia County. Troopers arrived initially and updated 911. The fire department did eventually show up with an engine, a tanker and a rescue each with a driver. With the limited manpower and some more enroute from neighboring departments with extended ETA's, the IC asked the Troopers for assistance to try to keep the fire from extending to the other portion of the house. The Troopers, 3/4 who are volunteer firefighters with chief officer experience and training obliged with permission from their supervisor. When enough fire personnel arrived, the Troopers were relieved and re-assumed their law enforcement roles.
Maybe not the best situation, but it happened, happened safely and they did do some good. Let's face it, this fire was the biggest thing going on in Columbia County at the time and the 2 speeders that got away on the Taconic during the time the Troopers were manning the hoseline will be caught next time.
As someone who takes a lot of fire pics in the Greene & Columbia areas I see the cooperation between law, fire and rescue squads all the time. You look up here at fire scenes and say "What the ....??" and I look at operations in the "Metro" areas and just scratch my head.
And Truck12345 seriously? Bill the FD for the Troopers time?? Maybe we should send bills to the NYSP every time we have to sit at a wire down on a STATE road and wait for NiMo or CH?? Maybe the next time we need the Troopers to help close a road so we can lay supply line across the street, maybe they won't be there.
I'm proud and happy that these Troopers were able to help and were not so disgruntled and screwed up that they just looked crosseyed at the Chief and said "Sorry dude. Not my job."

I can't understand why you are getting so defensive and taking this so personal. The idea of this was to be an intelligent discussion, not a foot stomping tirade. I come to work, do my job, and go home. Thank you for taking care of the ESU injured member, I think anyone, PD or FD would provide these care for eachother in that same situation. We may wear different patches, but we're all human.

Everybodygoes, I'm not looking to get into an arguement with you over what in the end is complete nonsense, but I am up for an intelligent rational discussion, so I'll respond to your post.
"The FDNY has been doing rescues since 1865, ESU was started what in the 20's?"
In 1865 the hodge podge of volunteer fire companies were superceded by the Metropolitan Fire Department, which in its beginning roots only covered parts of what is now Manhattan and later on Brooklyn. The FDNY officially became the FDNY in 1870. It wasn't until 1928 that the Bronx was pretty much completely served by the paid Fire Department, followed by Queens in 1929, and Staten Island in 1937. The Fire Departments main function was Fire Suppression. I have tried to research a bit more on the history of the FDNY and their involvement in rescue work, but have come up short in factual verifiable information. If you know where I can locate this, I'd be interested to read it. I know that Rescue 1 was officially formed in 1915, and Rescue 2 was officially formed in 1925. According to the unofficial website for Rescue 1, the formation of the rescue companies was borne out of several fires (Equitable Building, 1912, a Subway Train fire in 1915) wthere firefighters were encountered with difficult forcible entries, and realized the need for a company that carried specialized equipment to operate at these fire scenes. As time went on, Rescue began to get more involved in the Technical Rescue arena, but their original responsibility was to operate at fire scenes, and perform rescues of firefighters and civilians at structural fire scenes (taken from an unofficial Rescue 2 website). This was a time when the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires. Rescue 1 was first equipped with it's first Hurst Tool in 1972. The NYPD was officially formed in 1854 (20 years before the Metropolitan Fire Dept.). ESU was formed in 1925 from a pool of police officers who possessed special skills (electricians, carpenters, riggers, etc.) with the sole purpose of performing rescue assignments. The Unit was also known as the departments Firearms Battalion, and years later the Unit was coined the Mobile Security Unit, where it was tasked with responding to both rescues and tactical situations. Their role as a tactical unit expanded in the 1970's after the Munich Olympics massacre. Not sure when ESU equipped their vehicles with hurst tools. In a book written about the history of FDNY Rescue 1, it was written that members of the NYPD ESU actually helped train the first members of Rescue 1 (I'm not making claims to the accuracy of the material, just relaying what was written. I'll re-post the title of the book when I dig it up). ESU was formed to serve the cop on patrol. At a time when NYC was burning down and the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires, the members of ESU were a resource for the patrol cop to handle these rescue jobs. Before the formation of FDNY Rescue, members of the FDNY performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. Before the formation of NYPD ESU, members of the NYPD performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. So to say one was doing it before the other... not sure how much weight that holds.
Westchester County PD has hurst tools before the overwhelming majority of FD's, especially in the northern part of Westchester County, and were the only one's equipped to perform vehicle extrications on certain parts of the County highways for many years.
"You tell me who is better trained at doing it."
I don't know, who is? What discipline are we talking about? ESU members go through a Rope Rescue Technician course provided by a nationally recognized training organization that meets NFPA 1670 and 1006 requirements, and go for continual training multiiple times a year, whether it is self-driven Squad level training, mandated in-house training, or training provided by outside training organizations. ESU members go through an AVET course similar to the Fire Service, and through self-motivation and discipline will often visit local junk yards to train on scrap and derelict vehicles during the course of their normal tour to remain competent on their skills. They go through the EPA Haz Mat Technician course, the FEMA Structural Collapse Technician course, all meet and exceed the NFPA requirements. All ESU members are at a minimum EMT's with several Paramedics and one or two Physician Assistants in the ranks. Unless things have changed, all FDNY members are CFR's (with some EMT's/medics thrown in there). Since we are technically better trained emergency medical responders (as in trained to a higher standard), should ESU take over patient care activities when we arrive on scene?
"You show up with 2 we show up with 6"
You are correct, and sometimes 2 is all you need... more is not always better. I agree that on jobs that are manpower intensive (structural collapses, trench rescues) rolling 6 deep is a huge benefit, and necessary for the operation at hand, and something that ESU really can't compete with. But look at the majority of confirmed pin jobs.. they're simple door jobs that are mitigated in minutes. Quite often I'll see 2 guys working and 4 standing around doing nothing. Even on a simple, minor MVA with injuries on the highway when you have 2 and 2 rolling in with 4 (I think) guys on each piece of apparatus. That's 16 guys either standing around or jockeying for position for one totally stable patient. It's not a knock or a low-blow, it's simple observation. On a more technical or complicated job, we should all be able to work together, and I think the concept of working together is more prevalent in the outer-boroughs. I haven't been around that long, but overall I've had no real major issues when it comes to working together. What it comes down to more often then not is not the patch on the sleeve, but the mentaility of the individual.
As I mentioned before, Westchester County PD handled extrications on the County Highways for many, many years before a lot of the local VFD's had hurst tools, and they got the job done in most instances without 6 people showing up.
"But, don't tell me what happened in Brooklyn was a rare occurence, cause it isnt."
I didn't say it was a rare occurence. What I am saying it's that it's not a one-sided problem. I'm not trying to bash anyone or any agency, but I'll give you 2 examples. Queens, 2 ESU members tethered and outfitted in gumby suits are effecting an ice rescue. After making contact with the victims, members of the FDNY show-up and 5 or 6 run out onto the ice in bunker gear. No tethers, no protective suits, just bunker gear. Can you guess what happens? Ice breaks, and all of them fall through the ice into the freezing cold water and now they all have to be rescued. All of this was caught on video by a news chopper. Don't believe me, I'll post the video here. How is that scenario any different then the one you portrayed about ESU guys trying to be the "it guys", and endangering their own safety and the safety of the other responders who now have to get them out of the water? Or a more recent scenario. Water rescue, male in the water up along the seawall. ESU arrives, one member suits up in a drysuit, and while being tethered, enters the water and grabs the person in the water. While this is going on, FDNY members drop a ladder in the water, and insist on putting one of their own in the water, eventhough the person is "in-custody" for lack of a better term. Now the ESU member has to wait for the FDNY member to descend the ladder so him and the victim can climb the ladder out of the water. The FDNY member entered the water, and came right back up the ladder. What purpose did that serve other then to be the "it guy"? If we want to get technical, according to NYC CIMS, NYPD is the lead agency for all water incidents. What it comes down to is the A-type personality that the majority of us possess and everyone wants to be that "it guy", unfortunately sometimes people's judgements get clouded and irrational decisions are made on both sides, not just one. That's the only point I'm trying to make.
"Guys in Truck 4 are all aces, never had a single problem with them and they work with us well, and of course you cant paint with a broad brush, but it does happen and nothing is done to mediate it. "
Like I said before, I think as you get into the outer-boroughs, there's less drama overall. I don't have an answer as to why nothing is done to mediate it.
"Wonder why it doesnt happen in Yonkers?"
I don't know, maybe someone from Yonkers can chime in. Maybe it's a better working relationship. Maybe Yonkers ESU wants little to do with rescue work. Maybe we just don't hear about the problems. Maybe the current workload leads to few occasions where there's a potential for a problem. I honestly don't know.

A VOLUNTEER system should function no differently then a paid system. It's about setting a standard of care that should be followed by all EMS systems, whether paid or VOLUNTEER. The person on the floor shouldnt get a lower standard of care just because they're served by VOLUNTEERS. One police officer isn't enough to pick up someone off the floor. Now you have to send 2 cars. Some jurisdictions only have two cars on patrol to cover an entire village. It's okay to leave a whole village without police protection just because the EMS system is VOLUNTEER?

Well it depends. If a lift assist is classified as a rescue, I would say FD because they really are the only ones qualified to handle such an intense task.... I'm only kidding people! Just trying to make light of the recent discussions and bickering, so smile!
In all seriousness I would say EMS because a lot of these lift assists involve underlying, sometimes complex medical conditions that really should be evaluated by an EMS crew. It's in the best interest of the patient, and could prevent EMS having to go back once an underlying condition exacerbates into something worse.

A VOLUNTEER system should function no differently then a paid system. It's about setting a standard of care that should be followed by all EMS systems, whether paid or VOLUNTEER. The person on the floor shouldnt get a lower standard of care just because they're served by VOLUNTEERS. One police officer isn't enough to pick up someone off the floor. Now you have to send 2 cars. Some jurisdictions only have two cars on patrol to cover an entire village. It's okay to leave a whole village without police protection just because the EMS system is VOLUNTEER?

So.... We should leave the elderly woman who's incapacitated on her bedroom floor there to rot? Where do you volley/work? I want to make sure I don't have family that lives there.

A VOLUNTEER system should function no differently then a paid system. It's about setting a standard of care that should be followed by all EMS systems, whether paid or VOLUNTEER. The person on the floor shouldnt get a lower standard of care just because they're served by VOLUNTEERS. One police officer isn't enough to pick up someone off the floor. Now you have to send 2 cars. Some jurisdictions only have two cars on patrol to cover an entire village. It's okay to leave a whole village without police protection just because the EMS system is VOLUNTEER?

That's a problematic approach. Too many lift assists are more complicated then they may appear. The variables involved with events preceding the fall and resultant injuries from the fall really necessitate a medical evaluation. It is difficult enough for dispatchers to parse through callers information to identify which ones are truly mundane, uncomplicated left assists.
Does your agency respond to medical alert calls? By that logic, there is even less of a need for an ambulance response to those, as so many are unfounded or accidental activations. Do you propose a "check and advise" approach on the part of law enforcement. No, the answer is no.

I agree, well written post Joe. We didn't look at these calls as nuisance though.
We used to ride around the district and I'd spend a lot of time staring out the window at the neat row after row of little pink houses, block after block, ain't that America. Aided's, lift assists, water conditions, all the service calls gets all of that look behind the doors and locks of the little pink houses. The encounters would soften the hardest cigar chomping brutes of the job. They softened everybody.
There'd be the poor, frail elderly and oft neglected by remaining family or friends, victim; stuck in some torturous position for God knows how many hours, wedged behind a fixture, soiled, humiliate, scared, confused.
And the compassion that flew forth from otherwise stoic members of the services was always warming. Yet the whole scene always enveloped me. The old photos on the wall from when the husband was still alive, from their younger days of love, family, children, photos from later when those kids grew up, got married, moved on...
In the end, this poor compassion-needy person is stuck, helpless on the floor of her bathroom with acid burns from having been unable to relieve herself properly. Each and every single call, heartbreaking in a way. Makes the self-preservation instinct kick in for a lot. Trying to fit humor in some where when picking up.
In a way, Americans are all victims of our collective success, relatively luxurious compared with much of the rest of the world. Yet, here we are, all separated, elderly abandoned and left to their own means. Isolated. Alone. Half of everybody in this country has got some kind of head problem because of how we are all so alone so much even within the hustle and bustle of large populated areas.
Yeah, those lift assists. You've got to construct an iron ring around your heart for the time you do these jobs, because if you let all of that despairing into yours...it leaves scars.

I understand your thought reasoning, and it's not necessarily incorrect. As a medic the last thing I want to do is go to a lift assist because most don't require ALS intervention, but...
#1 - we can't always play what-if's. I could turn around and say what if the lift assist patient did require ALS intervention and now you just delayed the medic 15 minutes because "what if a more serious call comes in", and yet that call never comes; is that fair to the person who called 911 for our services? I've personally responded to a number of lift assists that ended up being cardiac arrests.
#2 - why do we send medics to every call? Who says we have to send the medic to a lift assist? If proper EMD is done, and no flags are raised for a potential for this to be ALS, then we may be able to get away without sending an ALS unit and keeping that unit in-service for the "what if".
What if we take an FD rig out of service and a fire comes in? What if we take a patrol car out of service and a robbery occurs? We can keep on "what-if'ing" but someone's gotta pick grandma up off the floor.
We can only treat one patient at a time, one call at a time. As EMS managers, they need to ensure that their systems run efficiently with the manpower and staffing levels they have to work with without short-changing the public who deserves the services they require.

So.... We should leave the elderly woman who's incapacitated on her bedroom floor there to rot? Where do you volley/work? I want to make sure I don't have family that lives there.