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Even if "2 in, 2 out" is what departments are following, it's imperative that the members who are assigned as the "2 out" are qualified, knowledgeable, skilled in rescuing downed firefighters. As I stated earlier, many MAYDAYS! occur very early in the operation (well before a special FAST / RIT will arrive). ALL firefighters must be capable of taking the necessary action IMMEDIATELY when firefighters collapse or become trapped and require rescue. The old saying, "Fail to plan, plan to fail" comes to mind. Unfortunately, if we fail in these situations our Brothers / Sisters make the ultimate sacrifice.

Even if "2 in, 2 out" is what departments are following, it's imperative that the members who are assigned as the "2 out" are qualified, knowledgeable, skilled in rescuing downed firefighters. As I stated earlier, many MAYDAYS! occur very early in the operation (well before a special FAST / RIT will arrive). ALL firefighters must be capable of taking the necessary action IMMEDIATELY when firefighters collapse or become trapped and require rescue. The old saying, "Fail to plan, plan to fail" comes to mind. Unfortunately, if we fail in these situations our Brothers / Sisters make the ultimate sacrifice.

FAST or RIT is not designed to be a function handled by a specialized unit or group. It is essential that every firefighter be trained in all facets of firefighter rescue. Often incidents that cause firefighters to require emergency rescue, occur early in the incident (well before a county team or specialized team from a mutual aid department can gather a crew and respond). This means that the rescue of the downed or trapped firefighter(s) will have to be initiated by the firefighters who are already on the scene if they are to have a chance at a good outcome.

FAST or RIT is not designed to be a function handled by a specialized unit or group. It is essential that every firefighter be trained in all facets of firefighter rescue. Often incidents that cause firefighters to require emergency rescue, occur early in the incident (well before a county team or specialized team from a mutual aid department can gather a crew and respond). This means that the rescue of the downed or trapped firefighter(s) will have to be initiated by the firefighters who are already on the scene if they are to have a chance at a good outcome.

FAST or RIT is not designed to be a function handled by a specialized unit or group. It is essential that every firefighter be trained in all facets of firefighter rescue. Often incidents that cause firefighters to require emergency rescue, occur early in the incident (well before a county team or specialized team from a mutual aid department can gather a crew and respond). This means that the rescue of the downed or trapped firefighter(s) will have to be initiated by the firefighters who are already on the scene if they are to have a chance at a good outcome.

FAST or RIT is not designed to be a function handled by a specialized unit or group. It is essential that every firefighter be trained in all facets of firefighter rescue. Often incidents that cause firefighters to require emergency rescue, occur early in the incident (well before a county team or specialized team from a mutual aid department can gather a crew and respond). This means that the rescue of the downed or trapped firefighter(s) will have to be initiated by the firefighters who are already on the scene if they are to have a chance at a good outcome.

FAST or RIT is not designed to be a function handled by a specialized unit or group. It is essential that every firefighter be trained in all facets of firefighter rescue. Often incidents that cause firefighters to require emergency rescue, occur early in the incident (well before a county team or specialized team from a mutual aid department can gather a crew and respond). This means that the rescue of the downed or trapped firefighter(s) will have to be initiated by the firefighters who are already on the scene if they are to have a chance at a good outcome.

Your killing me here Moose! I said I was done and you pulled me back in!Your second sentence says it all. I like to think that most of the topics I post will and should be thought about and deciphered. Almost like the 24 hour rule replying to some touchy email received. Step back, read, re-read and think. It just amazes me that one person who is in a supervisory role here thinks that (A) I along with all FD members dislike cops. Absurd and totally out of line. ( B ) it is ok to be DISPATCHED to a call that you are not trained or suited for. I too am in a supervisory role and have had plenty of discussions with my superiors over calls I do not feel my men were prepared for. I know when I accepted the promotion that I also accepted the fact that I will do what it takes to return my Brothers home the next morning the same way they showed up the morning before.
Our Job as well as I would say the majority of FD's have written SOP's for all calls we respond to. Why do we have written SOP's? The FD works as a team to mitigate any and all calls we respond to. Wether you are first due truck ( forcible entry, fire floor and OV ) to second truck ( forcible entry, floor above and coordinated ventilation for the engines ) first engine ( line placement ) second engine ( water source, backup first line ) third engine ( second handline to back up ) and so on down the line.
What could a PD SOP dictate for the first due officer to a job? Do they even have an SOP or are they flying by the seat of their pants? I mean really? Do you honestly believe we are "attacking " the law enforcement community here?

No malice intended towards cops. I was just giving an example of how heroism is perceived. My point was that a FF who made a difficult search which turned out negative worked harder than the perceived "hero" that made a quick grab at the front door.
There may be differences in personality between cops and FFs. I would not even consider myself being a cop. I think I can usually predict how a fire is going to act. I never can predict how a person is going to act. For this, I salute you guys.
About a year ago, I passed a female cop who had a person pulled over. The person was big and tough looking and was sitting in the drivers seat with his feet hanging out the door. The cop, a lefty, had her hand on her gun and her knees slightly bent. Her posturing gave me the impression that she was concerned with this guy, so I turned down the next street and called 911 to make sure she had backup. We are, after all, brothers in blue.

If FD or EMS arrives on scene at an active shooter and PD is not yet on scene and lives are at stake what should they do "wait for PD" or just rush in? Same concept.
If PD already has SOP that says do not drive recklessly to calls and do not enter fire area and they do both on this call, its not up to the FD to do inservice training. The PD supervisor made it quite clear they did not follow dept policy.

I have been to scenes where fellow cops got off on the fire floor to a hallway fully involved. I try to tell some these guys why go in to a fire when FD is right behind us. As I have stated in another topic I'm not going into a fire or CO or gas alarm. That's what FD is for. If I worked in a rural area maybe I would have a different outlook. On the other hand I have been off duty after a shift and driving on the highway and pulled up to (all separate incidents) - overturned MVA, another was a overturn and ejection and another hitting the jersey barrier. All after midnight. I stopped did what I had to do until trooper, EMS and FD came. Called them all in. I also call it luck as I was mins behind the accidents and wasnt involved or having to swerve. It all depends

Point them out, I know I have bashed a few ff/ems for doing s*** they were not trained to do or that violated there own policies.
LEO have an incredibly difficult job, but in this particular case the officers who got hurt did not need to be in the position they put themselves in.

Wow have you guys clearly misunderstood the intentions of the story. I for one have no personal problem with any law enforcement agency or specific law enforcement officer. I have countless friends who are cops in just about every agency in our local area. When you guys jump all over the "FD hates PD " bandwagon it is time to look in the mirror and ask yourself WT heck. The bottom line of my posting was to have the people who put themselves and others in harms way when they are not suited to maybe step back a little and think. I really don't give a rats behind about the ones who defend these types of actions. There will never be any type of incident that will change their minds. It must be the capes that are handed out at graduation. It's the ones I will never read about that the message sunk in. Just because the public hates cops does not mean that fire personel does as well. Pathetic!!!!

Any responder (PD, FD, EMS....) who does not have training to understand if they are being helpful or not because of there actions is not helping.
Not understanding if busting open doors or windows will improve smoke conditions or cause a back draft or flashover might save a victim or doom a victim.
A number of years ago I ended up on a scene where a police officer vented a window while his partner was inside searching. It caused either a backdraft or a flashover (dont know didnt get there till a few minutes after that). The officer was a close friend of my partner and before I intubated him he asked my partner to tell his wife and kids goodbye andhe loved them. The next day my partner quit as a medic.
Good intentions are great, but why do we do all kinds of training and have rules, and SOP's if the moment the scene turns bad we just rush in and ignore everything we learned (or did we fail to train our personnel and have sop's)?

So new Rochelle catches a job in the projects last night and this is the outcome. Just found this on another site and copied and pasted it. I can tell you for sure that when my company responds to a EDP or suicide attempt or some other dangerous call and PD advises to wait until scene is secure before entry I do just that. I have also been on location first before the arrival of PD and stood fast and waited. I do not know if the person I am responding to is injured or dead and I really don't care at that point. I do know that my guys won't end up injured or dead by my stupid decision to enter a scene I can't control. Do FD's really need to get on the air to advise PD to stand by until scene is safe or should they be grown ups and realize it's out of their hands? Do these officers really need to be on the fire floor? Maybe we should wait for the bagpipes to decide.
Two New Rochelle Police Officers Injured In Fire
By James O'Toole on Mon, 06/24/2013 - 04:41
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A Sunday evening fire at 590 Fifth avenue sent two New Rochelle Police officers to Sound Shore Medical center for treatment.There injuries are not serious according to fire department radio reports.
The fire broke out in a fifth floor apartment that was not occupied at the time of the fire.The fire was contained to one apartment. Some other apartments got smoke damage and water damage.Most people returned to there apartments after the fire department gave the all clear

A lot of this could very well be applied to the volunteer fire service as well.

Rest in peace Cap, it was an honor to know you. Condolences to family ... Jim Jr. is the current Captain of Rescue Co. 3 in the Bronx.

There are plenty of good and decent folks who work as LEO's, EMT's and Firefighters. We don't hear about the majority of their good deeds because unless a third party (such as was the case here) happens to witness the act and pursue the media to get the story covered the deed is done and the guy in the uniform goes on his way. Fortunately, this time the act was caught on camera. Nice job officer, good Karma too ...

There are plenty of good and decent folks who work as LEO's, EMT's and Firefighters. We don't hear about the majority of their good deeds because unless a third party (such as was the case here) happens to witness the act and pursue the media to get the story covered the deed is done and the guy in the uniform goes on his way. Fortunately, this time the act was caught on camera. Nice job officer, good Karma too ...

As much a I hate to admit it this is true. EMS is treated like a second class citizen in the FDNY but it is still better then when we were under HHC ( based on what I've been told). There are some old timers who swear up and down on HHC but the majority say it's better under FDNY. We've gotten better pay/ benefits, as well as a much better budget for EMS. The ambulances used to be barebones you were lucky to be part 800. Now most of our buses are overstocked and the stations have plenty of extra to restock. However as I mentioned you are a second class citizen. Many people get frustrated that when EMS does something they refer to you as " FDNY members " or " Firefighters" and very rarely mention EMS. Also the changing our of supervisors mentality has changed drastically in even the 4 years I've been there. I wish our bosses were like the bosses for the Firefighters, but ours would rather write charge packets, for the same thing they were doing a year ago before they got their bar. This is where the whole Sandy thing comes into play. Unlike what the Commissioner says units were ordered to stay at their cross street locations ( not in shelter) during the storm, and station supervisors were ordered to stay in quarters until the water was so many many people lost their cars because it was too late to evacuate. Had these same Chiefs been out in the field ( there is usually only 1 to 2 EMS chiefs on at night and they're basically ghosts who only appear when something big happens) they would have seen how fast the conditions deteriorated and how much danger the crews were in. Putting the crews in danger jeopardized the citizen's we are here to protect because we became focused on trying to save each other and therefore took longer to respond to emergencies. Many member unnecessarily lost possessions and their vehicles because of the lack of preplanning and the lack of orders issued. This is a job to be proud of, and a honorable job where people look up to you. However I believe it is unacceptable to sit back and simply take abuse which can endanger you, this isn't a rant by someone who is burnt out, this is a rant by someone who loves his job however wish it was managed much much differently.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20121021/NEWS02/310210065/1018
The article mentions that mutual aid was received from Mohegan Lake and Mahopac Fire Departments. That's quite a haul for Mahopac. Were Mahopac Falls and Kent also called, or were they not available?

If we had to say there is a down side to being part of the Fire Serrvice this would be it. I was a member of the Yonkers Fire Department for almost 29 years and I can say with certainty that you burry too many friends before their time. However to go along with that is one of my sayings I used all the time. Everything in life is give and take, therefore if it were not for the Fire Service I would not have made so many Good and Close friends over the last 29 years. I had the pleasure of being one of A. Rods traing Officers when he started his career on the YFD, it was there that are friendship started. Tony was a True Gentleman, True Friend, Geat Firefighter, and one of the most giving people you would ever want to meet. He would do anything for a person in need, and he continued that even on his last day with us. The only thing that brings a sense of compfort to me as I think about my friend is that I know he is in excellent company with all the other Great people taken from us to early. You will truly be missed by the many people that you touched their lives
Good bye MY FRIEND see you again one day.
Your Friend
Mike

I have seen and read about PD doing rescues that has put themselves and othersin harms way. 2 by NYPD at a high angle rescue from a high rise and a trapped person under a car where it might have coast a person their life.And 1 in upstate where 2 police became trapped in a burning building and had to be taken from a window by a tower ladder.

10-26

Technology and "progress" are great and unavoidable but as I've often said newer is not always better. The Gamewell systems many of us are familiar with were (are for those fortunate enough to still have them), simple to use, simple to maintain and above all reliable. It's a shame they have become extinct in most areas.
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