bad box

Hi Mike,
I didn't consider my comment to be a criticism. When I was on the job we frequently would sit around the kitchen table after a working fire or an unusual emergency and do an informal critique. It was never used as a method of pointing fingers or attaching blame, rather it was used as a learning tool to help us to find the best methods for dealing with the myriad of situations that we as firefighters frequently encounter in our profession. Our goal was to always be prepared to do the best, most efficient job of protecting civilian lives and property while maintaining safe practices at the same time. IMHO the photos and videos of fires and emergencies that appear on this website can prove to be a valuable learning tool. Posters should show respect when making suggestions as well as make sure that you are suggesting procedures, equipment, etc. that is 'tried and true' as opposed to something you have dreamed up and never put to the test at the drill site. Other than that, I think we all need to admit that none of us know it all, always do everything right and can't benefit from a good suggestion now and then. If we want to continue to improve as fire rescue personnel, we'll have to be open to the real world experiences of Brothers who have been there and done that enough times that they have something to offer to the newer generation of folks on the job.
Stay safe ...

I know this is '20-20 hindsight', but I think I would have assigned most of the excess personnel on the scene to grab shovels to build a dike using the readily available earth at the scene in order to contain the flow of fuel & apply a foam blanket to the pool of flaming liquid. This would be done rather than using charged attack hose lines to create the dike.

I know this is '20-20 hindsight', but I think I would have assigned most of the excess personnel on the scene to grab shovels to build a dike using the readily available earth at the scene in order to contain the flow of fuel & apply a foam blanket to the pool of flaming liquid. This would be done rather than using charged attack hose lines to create the dike.

Why is the one comment from the man with more fire experience than most of us combined, basically ignored? You want this to be a learning tool right? Recognize who is doing the TEACHING.

I know this is '20-20 hindsight', but I think I would have assigned most of the excess personnel on the scene to grab shovels to build a dike using the readily available earth at the scene in order to contain the flow of fuel & apply a foam blanket to the pool of flaming liquid. This would be done rather than using charged attack hose lines to create the dike.

I know this is '20-20 hindsight', but I think I would have assigned most of the excess personnel on the scene to grab shovels to build a dike using the readily available earth at the scene in order to contain the flow of fuel & apply a foam blanket to the pool of flaming liquid. This would be done rather than using charged attack hose lines to create the dike.

After having spent 21 years as a career firefighter, 17 years as a volunteer firefighter (8 of those years in chief's ranks) and several years in fire equipment sales I would have to say that it's due to misinformation (both from fire service personnel who never did real life field testing of smooth-bore vs. fog nozzles as well as from salesmen with no firefighting background), stubborn chief's who refuse to admit that they may be wrong and the fact that many in today's fire service don't seem to understand that in order to control a heavy volume of fire we must overwhelm it with a large volume of water that will penetrate to the seat of the fire. As was pointed out by antiquefirelt, if you view a photo of a stream from a stacked tip equipped master stream operating side by side with a fog tip equipped master stream both being directed into a heavy volume of fire you will notice that the stacked tip stream is penetrating the fire while the straight stream from the fog tip appears to be making a 90 degree turn away from the fire.

After having spent 21 years as a career firefighter, 17 years as a volunteer firefighter (8 of those years in chief's ranks) and several years in fire equipment sales I would have to say that it's due to misinformation (both from fire service personnel who never did real life field testing of smooth-bore vs. fog nozzles as well as from salesmen with no firefighting background), stubborn chief's who refuse to admit that they may be wrong and the fact that many in today's fire service don't seem to understand that in order to control a heavy volume of fire we must overwhelm it with a large volume of water that will penetrate to the seat of the fire. As was pointed out by antiquefirelt, if you view a photo of a stream from a stacked tip equipped master stream operating side by side with a fog tip equipped master stream both being directed into a heavy volume of fire you will notice that the stacked tip stream is penetrating the fire while the straight stream from the fog tip appears to be making a 90 degree turn away from the fire.

After having spent 21 years as a career firefighter, 17 years as a volunteer firefighter (8 of those years in chief's ranks) and several years in fire equipment sales I would have to say that it's due to misinformation (both from fire service personnel who never did real life field testing of smooth-bore vs. fog nozzles as well as from salesmen with no firefighting background), stubborn chief's who refuse to admit that they may be wrong and the fact that many in today's fire service don't seem to understand that in order to control a heavy volume of fire we must overwhelm it with a large volume of water that will penetrate to the seat of the fire. As was pointed out by antiquefirelt, if you view a photo of a stream from a stacked tip equipped master stream operating side by side with a fog tip equipped master stream both being directed into a heavy volume of fire you will notice that the stacked tip stream is penetrating the fire while the straight stream from the fog tip appears to be making a 90 degree turn away from the fire.

Anytime someone is injured through no apparent fault of their own, I am unable to see humor. I too would enjoy hearing what part of this incident is 'comical'. I wonder what chance (if any) there is of the civilian contracting rabies (if the animal proves to be rabid & if the projectile actually had passed through the animal prior to striking the bike rider) ...

Will this affect Brewster's participation in the county mutual aid plan from 0600 - 1800 hrs. M - F? Isn't it possible that the surrounding VAC's who also have staffing issues during these hours will cause the Brewster paid crew to be covering many out of district calls at the expense of the Brewster Fire District? ... BTW, I'm totally in favor of VFD's & VAC's having paid personnel on duty to provide immediate emergency response (Fire - Rescue - EMS) during times when insufficient staffing is an issue.

I disagree (I agree with 'Helicopter'& 'billfitz's' statements), however I do feel that way about departments that take most or all of their personnel along with their aerial apparatus or 'heavy rescue' out of district to parades remote from their first due response area ... sometimes in other counties or states. It's difficult to explain to the taxpayers that the $900,000.00 piece of apparatus that you absolutely needed in order to be able to protect a specific target hazard(s) suddenly isn't so vitally important when there's a trophy on the line.

I disagree (I agree with 'Helicopter'& 'billfitz's' statements), however I do feel that way about departments that take most or all of their personnel along with their aerial apparatus or 'heavy rescue' out of district to parades remote from their first due response area ... sometimes in other counties or states. It's difficult to explain to the taxpayers that the $900,000.00 piece of apparatus that you absolutely needed in order to be able to protect a specific target hazard(s) suddenly isn't so vitally important when there's a trophy on the line.

I respectfully disagree. Very few resources there were "first due" or "front line" and those that are first due were covered for the afternoon. Many of the resources were still available, including the vehicle that I was there with, and could (did) respond from Playland.
Given that many of the vehicles there were support vehicles or specialty response vehicles, I think your logic is flawed and you're attempting to stir a pot that doesn't need to get stirred.

FYI - for the past 2 years this has become a useful drill to exercise deployment of our USAR resources as well as mutual aid. The 2 frontline units that participated were backfilled with fully stocked reserve apparatus prior to leaving the city (When we send mutual aid out and it goes to work our policy is to backfill them with reserve rigs). As far as the USAR resources it gives us an oppurtunity to deploy vehicles, trailers and other equipment - this allows us to identify best practices and more importantly any shortcomings.

According to the LoHud article: "The three firefighters were charged with endangering the welfare of a child, a misdemeanor, and second-degree harassment, a violation, in September."
I'm surprised that they aren't facing more serious charges. If found guilty, shouldn't they also be considered registered sex offenders? If the accusations are true, these are sick, disgusting, perverts ... there's no place for this in society, let alone in the fire service.

Either these folks are independently wealthy or they are doing without the necessities of life in order to pay for their massive compliment of courtesy / buff lights. Check these out I'm not sure whether to laugh at or pity them:

In Nova Scotia a lot of volunteers carry their gear in the trunk. A lot of them leave it at the fire halls as they have to go there to respond to the call.
It is getting recommended to leave it in the fire halls to air out after a call due to the fact it takes about 72 hours to off gas the HCN fumes.
The only ones allowed to put lights on their POV's are the Chief and Deputy Chief and it puts up your Insurance premiums.
That is a ruling from the Provincial Registry of Motor Vehicles.

Gear = Trunk
Lights = Better Off Without

"Chicago FD Must Hire 111 Black Firefighters" ... No problem, all it will take is to have 111 black candidates study hard, work out hard and score high on the exam. There is no mystery to a fire department civil service exam, it's all about desire and dedication; if a candidate doesn't have that they don't belong 'on the job'.

"Chicago FD Must Hire 111 Black Firefighters" ... No problem, all it will take is to have 111 black candidates study hard, work out hard and score high on the exam. There is no mystery to a fire department civil service exam, it's all about desire and dedication; if a candidate doesn't have that they don't belong 'on the job'.

Tradition has nothing to do with strategy, tactics, thermal imaging, smooth bore tips, and so on. It is about respect for those who came before us by doing our jobs in a certain manner. It is a jargon that any fireman would quickly recognise as ours. They are not fire trucks, they are Engines and Trucks, and they are housed in quarters on the apparatus floor (not the garage). To test tradition in your firehiuse, try this: Leave a $100 bill and a cupcake on the kitchen counter. Turn around, and the cupcake will be gone. Turn old and gray and the $100 will still be there.
Tradition has its place. It doesnt impede progress. It helps us make progress,even at the worst of times.
“I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we who know the work which the fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling. Our proudest moment is to save lives. Under the impulse of such thoughts, the nobility of the occupation thrills us and stimulates us to deeds of daring, even of supreme sacrifice.”
Chief Edward F. Croker

Its not the perceived emergencies that burn people out and turn people off of EMS runs. Its the out right BS runs that we continue to encourage. The tooth ache call, the sniffles, I missed my Dr appointment, etc. Firefighters get just as annoyed at the automatic alarms, malicious false alarms, etc. While only 1% of all runs are major fires the burned out ballast, burner back puff, etc are all real enough where you can understand why someone would call 911.

We have in the past few years started publishing prehospital saves by engine companies in department orders similar to unit citations. The numbers are pretty impressive. I would say we do have a positive impact. Does it suck that that a segment of the public abuses ems and the first responders? Yes. But realize many of the things being complained about here were put in place for responder safety. The units are sent on the highway to provide protection. Also having fire with you many times gives you safety in numbers. I really can't see how anyone can make the case that a 2 person ems crew is better off by themselves at a serious call.

Never Forget Our Fallen * 23 N.Y.P.D. * 37 P.A.P.D. * 343 F.D.N.Y. *
Never Forgive Those Who Attacked America
Never Forget 9/11/2001
God Bless Our Troops ...