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They are also trying to make basement apartments legal again, it's like they forgot why these things were put in place. Then they will be shocked and horrified and blame the FD when fire fatalities go up.

Ah yes the Kentland 33 yahoo's. Not surprised this happened to them. Only a matter of time. They are a bit too unprofessional for anyone's tastes. I have met firemen from around the country and world, both career and volunteer, and no one can hold a candle to how these guys run. We are all Type A personalities and cocky but look at how these guys present themselves. "We are better then you" "Busiest company in the country" That's all nice and cute but every time the run totals come out they seem to not be the top guys. hmmm.
There is this story

Victims are considered to be entrapped when they cannot leave the vehicle because parts of the body or the whole body is confined in the distorted vehicle after impact, injured or not.
Such a situation requires special extrication/tools needed to help remove the victim would be considered entrapment.

Spot on.

You know the consolidation of volunteer departments without the addition of any paid personnel could be a significant improvement over the completely arcane system we have now. Everyone immediately assumes that consolidation implies paid but it doesn't! How about merging 4-5 districts that serve the same town? Or the countless villages that rely heavily on each other and are smaller than a postage stamp.
Imagine a River Towns or Sound Shore or North County Fire District with several former departments under one hierarchy. Economies of scale in purchasing, reduction of apparatus numbers (and the ability to have "spares", something virtually non-existent outside the big cities), higher personnel counts, standard training, administration and operations, to name a few.
A member department with strengths in one area can help one weak in that area and so on. Officers can be vetted from a larger pool of candidates improving the quality, competition, and ultimately performance. Chiefs will oversee a bigger department giving them more experience. Budgets can be consolidated perhaps reducing the overall cost to the taxpayer.
There's a lot to be said for consolidating and it doesn't mean adding ONE paid guy.

The problem that presents itself is a paradox. Not enough fires per square mile to justify full-time, paid fire departments (and the costs of benefits, retirement, etc.)...but not so few fires that we can just count our losses and ignore the problem entirely. Your typical volunteer crew of 5 guys (or gals), 2 or 3 who have a bit of experience and a level head on their shoulders can typically handle your run-of-the-mill calls for food on the stove, a residential lock-out, or a car into the ditch. But when there is a fire every 2-3 years and that crew of 3 or 5 guys simply will not suffice. They do the best that they can and either one guy makes a good call and puts the line in the right place to make a stop...or, they chase the fire from window to window around the house until it eventually goes out (we have all seen it). Either way, the fires happen so infrequently that the public doesn't even realize that there is a problem. There were 5 fires in my town (with 3 independent departments) in 2013-2014 and all 5 of the buildings (one of which was one of the firehouse) were heavily damaged if not completely destroyed by fire.
I think there is a serious problem with the volunteer fire service (at least in my area). The chiefs, officers, and members of the fire departments are hiding their manpower shortages in an effort to protect their department's longstanding tradition. They are afraid that, if the public knows how bad things really are, then they will be uprooted from their firehouses and replaced with paid firemen. The chief will lose his spot as chief (along with his power and his car), the men will lose their "clubhouse," and the longstanding tradition of the department that they enjoy so much will be a thing of the past. They will have, in their eyes, failed as a department...
I read a lot of articles about manpower shortages or interviews with chiefs where they consistently say things like "we can always use more volunteers and manpower is low at present but we continue to respond to every alarm." To me, this means that the chief goes to every alarm and one or two guys to the firehouse during the day to get a utility or mini-attack out the door. I know of many fire departments around that "respond to every alarm" where the chiefs all sign on, then go to the firehouse, get a rig, sign that rig on as well, and they have 5 units on the road but only have 3 people (Shhhh...it's a secret!). Again, the chief is cloaking the manpower problem by saying that they never miss a response. And, to the county it looks like they have stellar responses when in fact they don't.
Another way that departments hide their manpower shortages is by saying that they have "50 members on the roster" when, in reality, only 3-5 are very active. If you look at the websites of some of these departments under the "members" section they have tremendous lists of firefighters; but half of these people haven't been seen in more than 5 years. On the department's website for my town (of which I was previously a member) there are a few people listed as members who are dead (NOT EVEN KIDDING!). So when the town supervisor or a concerned citizen looks at the website and see all those names they think everything is great, when, in reality, it is just a facade.
Lastly, I always hear chiefs in the paper saying "we averaged 15 people per alarm last year (month, week, etc.)". How many of those people are qualified interior firefighters? I know that when I was a member, the Chief would tell the fire district every month that the department "averaged 12 members per call the previous month." 4 of the 12 were fire police in their '80s who came to every call; 3-4 of the 12 were junior members; and the rest were the chiefs and a few stragglers per call. Again, this "average" number is an illusion to hide the fact that departments these days just don't cut it.
I think fire chiefs and fire departments are coming up with inventive ways to hide manpower shortages because the solution to the problem is not desirable to them. They are stalling because they think things will get better on their own (I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say "manpower comes in waves") where, in reality, you might get a good year or two with the addition of a few good members but the fact of the matter is that manpower has been on a steady decline for years. The real solution to the problem is going to eventually be the addition of a few paid chauffeurs to get the trucks out during the day, then eventually going to full-time staffing during the day. Then the volunteers can take over at night when there are more guys around who come home from work. But, the longer the volunteer leadership can hold off the better because they get to hold on to their little men's club and the pride of 100 years of service by their organization. They don't want the intrusion of paid firefighters in their space, they don't want paid vs. volunteer battles, they don't want union issues, and they don't want to be thrown out. Firefighting is fun and those of us who love it really enjoy doing what we do. If they bring in career firefighters, the volunteers won't get to do what they love to do anymore, be firemen. So they have to hide it to hold on to their job. Hopefully, no one will have to lose their life to evince change like we see everywhere else on this job!

Well said. It has always been a mystery to me why in Westchester County, an area know for its wealth, an area of generally educated people that a volunteer system established in the 1940's to about 1960, is still allowed to operate. The department lines were drawn largely in the horse drawn hose carrier days and persist today.
I give nothing but kudos to the great volunteers both fire and ems.But folks, it is time to re evaluate.

Back to what's wrong with the site, there are lots of good criticisms and ideas to make things better, but we are just talking amongst ourselves and none of the ideas ever seems to get to someone who can effect change.
We all know the volunteer departments are hurting, especially ems. You just have to monitor the scanner and hear the re-tones to know that. Why don't officials from local governments know what is happening? Are the Chiefs too proud to talk about the problem?
I was a volunteer for 37 years. I stared in ems when it was still Red Cross first aid training and I became one of the first EMT's in my department when that program was first introduced back in the early 70's. But over the years things have changed both with fire and ems and I don't think it is possible to balance job, family and fire/ems anymore and be truly proficient at each.
My Grandfather was Hope Hose, my father Hope Hose and Hilltop and my myself, my brothers and their sons Scarborough. I believe my nephews to be the last generation of a 100% volunteer department. We used to go out to reported fires, now departments go out for 'lock-outs'. People used to take themselves to the emergency room, now an ambulance is dispatched for a 'not feel well'. Call volumes for less than true emergencies have skyrocketed and for volunteers its a problem. You shouldn't pick and choose, but when the alarm comes in at 3:00 AM for New Dorm at Pace, you know damn well its another microwave popcorn call and you will get turned around if you even make it to the firehouse before the call is cancelled.
I know that the paid guys will say, what if it isn't the popcorn? Well that is one big difference between paid and volunteer. You are already at the station, dedicating a specific period of time to respond to calls. You are not already at your 'regular' job, getting prepared for work, taking care of children, whatever you may be doing at any time of the day or night and have to stop and go out the door to a call, 90% or more that will be unnecessary because of either our increased Nanny State mentality of our fear of legal liability for not answering a call initiated by some electronic device somewhere. Gone too are the days of the police checking it out before dispatching additional services.
So, I don't see call volume decreasing so I see increased demands on time for calls and time for training. Firefighting is a young persons job and today there are a lot more demands on young people who are dealing with getting an education and a job, starting a family and giving back the time to devote to fire/ems is more difficult. I think that it is inevitable for volunteer departments to have to transition to, initially some paid, especially days, and eventually to paid. I also feel that a County department is the answer and I don't want to hear about the law.
Change the laws if they need to be changed, Apparently you only need three people in Albany to do anything so how hard can it be. I have been in the South for almost 10 years and in both the towns I have lived in they were covered by the County for Sheriffs, Fire and EMS. The larger cities still had their own, but the rest of the towns and villages were covered by the County with a lot fewer stations and apparatus than cover Westchester. And, Palm Beach County has 30% more people and 5X the area of Westchester.
Some who haven't been around that long won't remember that the County PD used to be the Parkway PD. They embarked on an expansion and redefinition of themselves and have emerged as a major player in law enforcement.
Is there no public safety committee within the State and/or County legislatures that is willing to take on the problems in fire/ems? These are life and death issues that you would think demand some attention from our elected officials.
Oh, by the way, there is no Nirvana, my current County (Marion) department is losing personnel at an alarming rate to other City and County departments that pay better. Firefighter/Emts are making about $10-$12 dollars an hour and the local County officials refuse to address the issue because they can't find the money without raising taxes. And Palm Beach (City) is bitching that the County is poaching the City's firefighters after the City has spent the money to train them.
Let's come back this next year. Nothing will have changed. In the end, it's all politics.

I don't get it. Maybe one of the LEO's on the site can explain it. According to the Post this morning, both DeBlasio and Bratton are to give eulogies at the funerals. While Bratton maybe has 5 more minutes of credibility left in his police career, DeBlasio has none. Why would the families of the officers allow a person who fanned the flames of the conflagration that took their loved ones to speak at their funerals?
I would never allow a politician an opportunity to 'rehabilitate' their image at such a solemn family ceremony, public though it may be. And, of course, any remarks by DeBlasio are not heart felt or genuine, they are mearly meant to shore up his image and in no way would reflect his true feelings.
I just don't get it.

Per a reliable source, the bond for the new Ladder 4 was approved by voters last night.

I'm reading a lot of continuing talk about why NOT to respond "RLS", yet all the reasons I read seem to highlight the failings in the system of adequately covering an area and not questioning the method of getting there. If the system is set up to spread coverage to even out a geographical area, then a neighbor shouldn't be moved one town over.
If the fire is in Dobbs Ferry and Irvington, Tarytown and Hastings are operating, then an engine should be moved there from, say, Port Chester and a ladder from say, Peekskill. Thats just an abstract idea, but that's how you spread coverage efficiently. You move people from COMPLETELY uneffected areas to a central location to offer coverage to a group of municipalities that are committed to an emergency. Also.....those relocated units should NOT be sent to the scene, if it can be helped.
The above is why relocating in emergency mode becomes necessary. You need those units to get to the area that needs coverage quickly. When there is a fire in midtown Manhattan, the relocations come from Harlem and Queens. Who says you can't compare this to Westhchester? Forget the municipality, this is just how it should work.
Is, "the odds of there being another emergency are slim" really the argument? If that's the case, then just pack up your fire department to begin with, because there's only a slim chance of disaster......
Stop with the defining of an emergency....too many gray areas. A serious hole in emergency service coverage IS an emergency. No one says to go bombing through red lights, but stop, look and proceed.

Funny how this article was released days before the vote on replacing the ladder. Seems like there is a supervisor stiring the pot again.

There are other states with the same, single standard for firefighter. It doesn't matter if you're paid or a volunteer, if you want to be a firefighter you take all the required training. This doesn't mean you have to attend full-time during the day but it does mean you have to make a commitment to your training. How many people are out there with outdated or inadequate training? Too many, and we ignore it and allow it to persist. How many are joining now and only taking the barest minimum of training before donning a pack and going into an IDLH environment?
Departments can order you to complete the training if you want to be given the title firefighter.
Support or exterior positions need to be called something other than firefighter. They're not and they're misleading themselves and the public. Some departments claim to have 100 members. To the public that means 100 interior firefighters (because the public won't make the distinction). In reality they have 25 life members (no longer doing anything), 25 junior members, and 25 exterior or support members, so in reality they only have 25 interior firefighters. How many will actually show up at the call? 1/3? 1/2? So 8-12 guys that can actually go inside to fight the fire or rescue grandma or whatever.
It's time we stop misleading ourselves and our public. One standard for the title of firefighter.

You're incorrect. Every police officer in the state of NY and every career firefighter has been trained to one standard. If they are on desk or light duty later in their career, it's irrelevant. They were still trained to the same single NYS standard.
EMT, paramedic, police officer and career firefighter all have one training standard. Only in the volunteer sector did we eliminate a training standard.
Not everyone can or should be a firefighter. They have to be able to perform the job. If you want to welcome everyone with open arms into your department, fine, just don't call them all firefighters.

With regard to The Villages.... Apples to Elephants comparison....
For fire protection it is an IAFF local. For EMS, for about a decade ending in 2011 Lake/Sumter EMS (Lake County, FL and Sumter County, FL) provided EMS as a bi-county municipal entity. In 2011 Sumter County opted out of the bi-county agreement that established Lake/Sumter EMS and contracted with Rural Metro. Lake County decided that the previous model was still efficient and merely removed the Sumter half of the logos from the rigs and went on operating as is.... This is an apples to watermelons comparison with regard to anything in Westchester....
The Rural Metro has the contract for ALL of Sumter County which is 580/sq miles and has a population of 101,600. Within Sumter County, 51,500 of the 101,600 residents are located within The Villages which is 5.5sq miles which includes the hospital of choice for transporting within Sumter County. So R/M gets a major economy of scale. A contract for 101,000 folks where nearly half of them (the half that are most likely to have medical issues and who ALL have Medicare as their reliable healthcare payor source) are living in a 5.5sq mile area with a hospital right down the road. Lesson here.... You've got a captive group of folks who all have a reliable means of reimbursing an ambulance service making up half the lives that are covered in the County contract all living within spitting distance of each other AND the hospital. NO BRAINER.
Eastchester you might say is very similar... 32,500 residents in 5sq miles with a hospital nearby. Thats where the similarities end. R/M doesn't have the contract for ALL of Westchester County nor will they ever get it. So if R/M goes it alone in Eastchester they have no economy of scale, the median age is is 40 years old vs. 66 years old in the Villages and thus the payor mix for reimbursement is going to be vastly different than it is for the Villages where everyone has coverage and work will be consistent to say the least.. Lesson here... EMS in Eastchester is NOTHING like EMS in The Villages AND.... Rural Metro doesn't do a good job of running fire departments in heavily populated areas. They currently have Fire Contracts for Pima, Pinal, and Yuma County Arizona whose population density ranges from 36 people/sq mile to 107 people/sq mile. Their other two fire contracts are for Knox County, TN at 751P/sq mile and Josaphine County, OR at 50P/sq mile. Eastchester has a population density of 6,500P/sq mile and Westchester County as a hole has a population density of 2200P/sq mile. Providing fire protection in Westchester, especially Southern Westchester is NOTHING like Sumter County Florida where the County covers most of the unincorporated areas with an IAFF local and the Villages has a stand alone IAFF department.

What are we, The Mafia? How about, "Don't leave dead animals in boxes on peoples cars"?
I gotta say.....this is a fishy story and clearly a lot is not being told to the paper (which is the way is should be). Senior guys, guys with a lot of experience are usually encouraged to stay, especially with a younger force on a lot of jobs. His son was fired? For what? That's gotta be some story too.
I can't imagine a situation that would warrant dead animals and threatening messages, but there is more to this story than a Capt. who was pushing for safety enhancements with many years experience.
Id say, that's all we'll ever know for sure.

I'm surprised that anyone would have any issues when it comes to safety and health, especially in the firehouse where people might spend a majority of their time. There might be more to this story then what we know.