Dinosaur

As I read the IA about the 4th alarm with maydays in the Bronx yesterday (thanks ryang), I am confronted with strong concerns and reservations about how that would happen anywhere in the suburbs. This is not a paid/volunteer issue. This is a major incident response issue because no matter what your pay status, we've cultivated a recipe for failure in this region with absolutely no standardization, abysmal leadership/management training programs and experience levels, and no means to effectively coordinate the response.
Some are probably already cracking their knuckles and gearing up for a keyboard battle but before you do, take a deep breath and let me finish my thought.
Yesterday in the Bronx, a fire in ordinary buildings that we have all over our suburbs, resulted in the initial response of more than 40 "interior" (and I hate that distinction but more on that later) firefighters (4 E, 1 S, 3 L, 1 BC, S/C 1/1, plus 10-75 response). How many of our departments can honestly say we can put that many qualified, trained, and equipped FF on the road in the first three minutes?
Within five minutes, the 2nd alarm results in another TWO DOZEN fully equipped FF responding. All from the same agency, with the same training, SOP's, equipment, and leadership. Wow, who can beat that?
SIXTY-FIVE fully qualifed FF in five minutes with an appropriate span of control and properly trained supervisors for each resource. Imagine that?
I'm sure that some will argue that you don't need 65 FF for a job like that and they can do it in their agency with far fewer resources but my point is wouldn't it be nice to know that you have that many qualified guys at your disposal in a staging area a few blocks away and not 20 minutes and a dozen dispatches later?
Now, the other shoe drops. With all those resources already on scene and operating. With several highly experienced and qualified chiefs running the show, there's a collapse and multiple maydays.
What would you do as the IC?
What would you do as the attack officer supervising the missing FF?
Do you have training for that scenario?
Do you have a pre-plan for that?
Are there SOP's for the actions of everyone on the fireground when it does happen (and regrettably it will happen)?
In the Bronx, it resulted in the response of another SEVENTY-FIVE firefighters/company officers with at least another half dozen very experienced chief officers and support resources up the wazoo.
All this was coordinated by the County communications center (FDNY Bronx Radio). It wasn't the local police desk trying to coordinate all the requests from the field while answering the switchboard and trying to dispatch seventy different resources. It wasn't a dozen different PSAP's all doing it their own way. It was part of a plan! (Some will undoubtedly argue that it isn't a good plan or it is overkill or whatever but my point is there is a plan and a standardized response!).
The chief officers that handled this fire probably have at least 12-15 years of experience as an officer backed up and supported by alot of training, drills and exercises. (FDNY has one of the elaborate exercise programs I've ever seen).
What do we have?
What do we require of our officers?
How do we get them the experience they need for this type of incident?
How experienced are they?
Are there any SOP's so dispatch knows what to do when the mayday is transmitted?
The FDNY response and resources is without question unique but how would we handle this kind of response? In a simple 3 story frame house fire that spread to similar exposures. This wasn't a high-rise. This wasn't a big factory. This was a row of buildings like almost any town in the Hudson Valley, Fairfield, or north Jersey.
It's time to stop the petty bickering and organize. If we won't consolidate we should at least agree on training, equipment, and response policies so when the other shoe drops on you there's a fighting chance for the trapped members!!!
It's 2012. The time for 90+ different dispatch points in Westchester is long gone We need a single coordinated 911 center for police fire and EMS in every county with properly trained professional 911 call-takers and dispatchers doing their jobs.
Put the ego and attitide and bravado aside and start lobbying for what is best for not just now but the future!

As I read the IA about the 4th alarm with maydays in the Bronx yesterday (thanks ryang), I am confronted with strong concerns and reservations about how that would happen anywhere in the suburbs. This is not a paid/volunteer issue. This is a major incident response issue because no matter what your pay status, we've cultivated a recipe for failure in this region with absolutely no standardization, abysmal leadership/management training programs and experience levels, and no means to effectively coordinate the response.
Some are probably already cracking their knuckles and gearing up for a keyboard battle but before you do, take a deep breath and let me finish my thought.
Yesterday in the Bronx, a fire in ordinary buildings that we have all over our suburbs, resulted in the initial response of more than 40 "interior" (and I hate that distinction but more on that later) firefighters (4 E, 1 S, 3 L, 1 BC, S/C 1/1, plus 10-75 response). How many of our departments can honestly say we can put that many qualified, trained, and equipped FF on the road in the first three minutes?
Within five minutes, the 2nd alarm results in another TWO DOZEN fully equipped FF responding. All from the same agency, with the same training, SOP's, equipment, and leadership. Wow, who can beat that?
SIXTY-FIVE fully qualifed FF in five minutes with an appropriate span of control and properly trained supervisors for each resource. Imagine that?
I'm sure that some will argue that you don't need 65 FF for a job like that and they can do it in their agency with far fewer resources but my point is wouldn't it be nice to know that you have that many qualified guys at your disposal in a staging area a few blocks away and not 20 minutes and a dozen dispatches later?
Now, the other shoe drops. With all those resources already on scene and operating. With several highly experienced and qualified chiefs running the show, there's a collapse and multiple maydays.
What would you do as the IC?
What would you do as the attack officer supervising the missing FF?
Do you have training for that scenario?
Do you have a pre-plan for that?
Are there SOP's for the actions of everyone on the fireground when it does happen (and regrettably it will happen)?
In the Bronx, it resulted in the response of another SEVENTY-FIVE firefighters/company officers with at least another half dozen very experienced chief officers and support resources up the wazoo.
All this was coordinated by the County communications center (FDNY Bronx Radio). It wasn't the local police desk trying to coordinate all the requests from the field while answering the switchboard and trying to dispatch seventy different resources. It wasn't a dozen different PSAP's all doing it their own way. It was part of a plan! (Some will undoubtedly argue that it isn't a good plan or it is overkill or whatever but my point is there is a plan and a standardized response!).
The chief officers that handled this fire probably have at least 12-15 years of experience as an officer backed up and supported by alot of training, drills and exercises. (FDNY has one of the elaborate exercise programs I've ever seen).
What do we have?
What do we require of our officers?
How do we get them the experience they need for this type of incident?
How experienced are they?
Are there any SOP's so dispatch knows what to do when the mayday is transmitted?
The FDNY response and resources is without question unique but how would we handle this kind of response? In a simple 3 story frame house fire that spread to similar exposures. This wasn't a high-rise. This wasn't a big factory. This was a row of buildings like almost any town in the Hudson Valley, Fairfield, or north Jersey.
It's time to stop the petty bickering and organize. If we won't consolidate we should at least agree on training, equipment, and response policies so when the other shoe drops on you there's a fighting chance for the trapped members!!!
It's 2012. The time for 90+ different dispatch points in Westchester is long gone We need a single coordinated 911 center for police fire and EMS in every county with properly trained professional 911 call-takers and dispatchers doing their jobs.
Put the ego and attitide and bravado aside and start lobbying for what is best for not just now but the future!

As I read the IA about the 4th alarm with maydays in the Bronx yesterday (thanks ryang), I am confronted with strong concerns and reservations about how that would happen anywhere in the suburbs. This is not a paid/volunteer issue. This is a major incident response issue because no matter what your pay status, we've cultivated a recipe for failure in this region with absolutely no standardization, abysmal leadership/management training programs and experience levels, and no means to effectively coordinate the response.
Some are probably already cracking their knuckles and gearing up for a keyboard battle but before you do, take a deep breath and let me finish my thought.
Yesterday in the Bronx, a fire in ordinary buildings that we have all over our suburbs, resulted in the initial response of more than 40 "interior" (and I hate that distinction but more on that later) firefighters (4 E, 1 S, 3 L, 1 BC, S/C 1/1, plus 10-75 response). How many of our departments can honestly say we can put that many qualified, trained, and equipped FF on the road in the first three minutes?
Within five minutes, the 2nd alarm results in another TWO DOZEN fully equipped FF responding. All from the same agency, with the same training, SOP's, equipment, and leadership. Wow, who can beat that?
SIXTY-FIVE fully qualifed FF in five minutes with an appropriate span of control and properly trained supervisors for each resource. Imagine that?
I'm sure that some will argue that you don't need 65 FF for a job like that and they can do it in their agency with far fewer resources but my point is wouldn't it be nice to know that you have that many qualified guys at your disposal in a staging area a few blocks away and not 20 minutes and a dozen dispatches later?
Now, the other shoe drops. With all those resources already on scene and operating. With several highly experienced and qualified chiefs running the show, there's a collapse and multiple maydays.
What would you do as the IC?
What would you do as the attack officer supervising the missing FF?
Do you have training for that scenario?
Do you have a pre-plan for that?
Are there SOP's for the actions of everyone on the fireground when it does happen (and regrettably it will happen)?
In the Bronx, it resulted in the response of another SEVENTY-FIVE firefighters/company officers with at least another half dozen very experienced chief officers and support resources up the wazoo.
All this was coordinated by the County communications center (FDNY Bronx Radio). It wasn't the local police desk trying to coordinate all the requests from the field while answering the switchboard and trying to dispatch seventy different resources. It wasn't a dozen different PSAP's all doing it their own way. It was part of a plan! (Some will undoubtedly argue that it isn't a good plan or it is overkill or whatever but my point is there is a plan and a standardized response!).
The chief officers that handled this fire probably have at least 12-15 years of experience as an officer backed up and supported by alot of training, drills and exercises. (FDNY has one of the elaborate exercise programs I've ever seen).
What do we have?
What do we require of our officers?
How do we get them the experience they need for this type of incident?
How experienced are they?
Are there any SOP's so dispatch knows what to do when the mayday is transmitted?
The FDNY response and resources is without question unique but how would we handle this kind of response? In a simple 3 story frame house fire that spread to similar exposures. This wasn't a high-rise. This wasn't a big factory. This was a row of buildings like almost any town in the Hudson Valley, Fairfield, or north Jersey.
It's time to stop the petty bickering and organize. If we won't consolidate we should at least agree on training, equipment, and response policies so when the other shoe drops on you there's a fighting chance for the trapped members!!!
It's 2012. The time for 90+ different dispatch points in Westchester is long gone We need a single coordinated 911 center for police fire and EMS in every county with properly trained professional 911 call-takers and dispatchers doing their jobs.
Put the ego and attitide and bravado aside and start lobbying for what is best for not just now but the future!

As I read the IA about the 4th alarm with maydays in the Bronx yesterday (thanks ryang), I am confronted with strong concerns and reservations about how that would happen anywhere in the suburbs. This is not a paid/volunteer issue. This is a major incident response issue because no matter what your pay status, we've cultivated a recipe for failure in this region with absolutely no standardization, abysmal leadership/management training programs and experience levels, and no means to effectively coordinate the response.
Some are probably already cracking their knuckles and gearing up for a keyboard battle but before you do, take a deep breath and let me finish my thought.
Yesterday in the Bronx, a fire in ordinary buildings that we have all over our suburbs, resulted in the initial response of more than 40 "interior" (and I hate that distinction but more on that later) firefighters (4 E, 1 S, 3 L, 1 BC, S/C 1/1, plus 10-75 response). How many of our departments can honestly say we can put that many qualified, trained, and equipped FF on the road in the first three minutes?
Within five minutes, the 2nd alarm results in another TWO DOZEN fully equipped FF responding. All from the same agency, with the same training, SOP's, equipment, and leadership. Wow, who can beat that?
SIXTY-FIVE fully qualifed FF in five minutes with an appropriate span of control and properly trained supervisors for each resource. Imagine that?
I'm sure that some will argue that you don't need 65 FF for a job like that and they can do it in their agency with far fewer resources but my point is wouldn't it be nice to know that you have that many qualified guys at your disposal in a staging area a few blocks away and not 20 minutes and a dozen dispatches later?
Now, the other shoe drops. With all those resources already on scene and operating. With several highly experienced and qualified chiefs running the show, there's a collapse and multiple maydays.
What would you do as the IC?
What would you do as the attack officer supervising the missing FF?
Do you have training for that scenario?
Do you have a pre-plan for that?
Are there SOP's for the actions of everyone on the fireground when it does happen (and regrettably it will happen)?
In the Bronx, it resulted in the response of another SEVENTY-FIVE firefighters/company officers with at least another half dozen very experienced chief officers and support resources up the wazoo.
All this was coordinated by the County communications center (FDNY Bronx Radio). It wasn't the local police desk trying to coordinate all the requests from the field while answering the switchboard and trying to dispatch seventy different resources. It wasn't a dozen different PSAP's all doing it their own way. It was part of a plan! (Some will undoubtedly argue that it isn't a good plan or it is overkill or whatever but my point is there is a plan and a standardized response!).
The chief officers that handled this fire probably have at least 12-15 years of experience as an officer backed up and supported by alot of training, drills and exercises. (FDNY has one of the elaborate exercise programs I've ever seen).
What do we have?
What do we require of our officers?
How do we get them the experience they need for this type of incident?
How experienced are they?
Are there any SOP's so dispatch knows what to do when the mayday is transmitted?
The FDNY response and resources is without question unique but how would we handle this kind of response? In a simple 3 story frame house fire that spread to similar exposures. This wasn't a high-rise. This wasn't a big factory. This was a row of buildings like almost any town in the Hudson Valley, Fairfield, or north Jersey.
It's time to stop the petty bickering and organize. If we won't consolidate we should at least agree on training, equipment, and response policies so when the other shoe drops on you there's a fighting chance for the trapped members!!!
It's 2012. The time for 90+ different dispatch points in Westchester is long gone We need a single coordinated 911 center for police fire and EMS in every county with properly trained professional 911 call-takers and dispatchers doing their jobs.
Put the ego and attitide and bravado aside and start lobbying for what is best for not just now but the future!

Maybe before you guess, you should learn more about a situation, because when you ASSume....we all know what happens.
Our DPW looked into this system and had a demo unit for about 3 months. The concept was rejected by the city council when it was determined that 1) the manufacture of the system strongly recommended to only use it on streets without parking (this eliminates about 80% of our city). 2) Assuming that we did not have curbside parking, the city would have to replace approximatly 14 trucks and provide about 30,000 special garbage cans. 3) one of the manufacturers recommended that it not be used in communities with overhead wires ( I know others its not an issue).
Its a great concept, but it looks like it needs to be done in "new" communities, maybe this is why you rarely see it in older cities.

Date: 4/14/12
Time: 13:15 hours
Location: Van Nest Ave x Holland Ave
Description Of Incident: Heavy fire in a 3-story frame on arrival extended to exposures 2, 2A, 4, and 4A. Partial collapse resulting in multiple maydays and missing MOS.
Reporter: ryang
Additional Info:
Van Nest, the Bronx, NY, 4/14/12
Address: 726 Van Nest Ave between Holland and Hunt Aves
13:14 hours
Phone Box 3217 - Report of fire in a multiple dwelling
Engs 90, 45, 97
TL41, TL58
Battalion 20
13:15 hours
Now receiving multiple calls
Squad 61 (4th due Engine)
Rescue 3
10-75-3217 - 13:15 hours
E64*
L47 (FAST Truck)
Battalion 18
Division 7
*Squad 61 now going in as a Squad
13:17 hours
Battalion 20: We're delayed responding from the other end of our district, start out an extra engine and truck based on the volume of smoke.
E96, TL54 S/C
2-2-3217 - 13:19 hours
TL41: Transmit a 2nd Alarm, we've got a fire on the exposure 2 side.
Engs 88, 46, 48
E72 w/ Satellite 2
L38
Battalion 3 (Safety Officer)
Battalion 27 (Resource Unit Leader)
Rescue, Safety Battalions
Tactical Support 1
FieldCom 1, Command Tactical Unit
RAC3
13:20 hours
BC20: we have 2 3-story frames going, k.
13:25 hours
Tactical Support 1 is OOS, Tactical Support 2 assigned
13:30 hours
The staging area is Morris Park Ave and White Plains Rd
13:38 hours - Duration 26 minutes
DC7: 3217, we have heavy fire in a 3-story brownstone-type 25x50. Exposure 1 is a street, exposure 2 is a similar attached, 3 is a rear yard, 4 is a 3-story frame separated by an alley. We have fire in exposure 4, we have fire in the cockloft, we have 4 lines stretched in operation, and we are Doubtful.
13:39 hours
Car 4C (AC Ronald Spadafora, Chief of Logistics) is responding.
3-3-3217 - 13:40 hours
DC7: 3217, make it a 3rd alarm, we have fire in 3 buildings.
Engs 82, 94, 50, 66
L27, L56
Battalion 17
Battalion 19 (Staging Manager)
Battalion 33 (Air-Recon Chief)
Mask Service Unit
10-66-3217 (Automatic 4th Alarm) - 13:55 hours
DC7: 10-66, we have 3 Maydays given, 1 has been accounted for, we're still looking for the other 2, we've had a partial collapse between the fire building and exposure 4.
Engs 75, 89, 79
E73 (CFRD Engine)
E262 w/ IMT Unit
E233 w/ Mobile Command 1
L32, TL50, L37
L42 (SOC Support Truck) w/ Collapse Rescue 3
L116 w/ Collapse Rescue 4
Battalion 26 (FAST Group Supervisor)
Battalion 15 (Firefighter Locator Officer)
Battalion 10 (Planning Sections Chief)
HazMat Battalion
Division 6
Squad 41, Squad 1 w/ TRV
Rescue 4
SOC Compressor, SOC Logistics, SOC Dewatering
Car 1B (Commissioner's Liaison)
Car 23D (Press Duty Car)
Car 12 (DAC Stephen Raynis, Chief of Safety and Inspectional Services)
Car 4 (Chief of Fire Operations Robert Sweeney)
13:59 hours
Battalion 15: Box 3217, do we have EMS on the scene?
Bronx advises that EMS is on scene.
14:03 hours - Duration 51 min
FieldCom: Progress Report for Box 3217, Division 7 reports: all 3 Maydays have been accounted for and removed from the building. 1 additional member has been injured and also has been removed from the building. Going to an exterior operation, Doubtful Will Hold.
14:03 hours
Fallback Step III has been implemented in The Bronx.
14:06 hours
FC: Have all units responding on the 10-66 report to the staging area, by orders of Division 7.
14:10 hours
Car 1E (Commissioner's Liaison) is responding
14:15 hours - Duration 1 hour 3 minutes
FC: Progress Report for your 4th Alarm Box 3217, at the address 730 Van Nest Ave, at this time Car 4C, AC Spadafora, reports: fire originated in a 3-story nonfireproof, started on 1st floor and communicated to the 2 and 3rd floors, and communicated to exposures 2 and 4. At this time rollcall is being conducted, the Maydays are accounted for. Operating with 2 tower ladder and multiple handlines, fire is darkening down, fire is Doubtful Will Hold.
14:17 hours
FC requests a mixer-off message.
14:23 hours Duration 1 hour 11 minutes
DC7: 4th Alarm, by orders of AC Spadafora, we have heavy fire in exposure 4A, outside wall. All units being removed, we're going to remain Doubtful.
14:25 hours
Car 14 (Chief Fire Marshal Robert Byrnes) is responding
14:27 hours
Car 36B (Department Chaplain) is responding
Car 33 (Duty Medical Officer) is 10-84
14:32 hours - Duration 1 hour 21 minutes
FC: By orders of Car 4C, AC Spadafora, make notification for Buildings and OEM to respond to the scene forthwith. Progress report for the 4th Alarm Box 3217, at the address 730 Van Nest Ave, at this time Car 4C, AC Spadafora, reports: we have fire in the top floor of exposure 4A which is a 2-story frame corner building. At this time going to an exterior operation on the original fire building, exposure 4 and exposure 4A. We have a handline stretched and operating into exposure 2. Searches delayed due to structural stability, fire is Doubtful Will Hold
14:33 hours
Car 16D (Communications) is responding
14:34 hours
FC: Additional info on the last progress report for the 4th, all units are being pulled from the interior and going to exterior operations.
14:45 hours - Duration 1 hour 34 minutes
FC: Progress Report for your 4th Alarm Box 3217, at the address 730 Van Nest Ave, at this time Car 4C, AC Spadafora, reports: we have gone to an exterior operation on all buildings involved, we have 3 tower ladders set up and operating, all units are out of the fire buildings, searches delayed due to heavy volume of fire and structural stability, fire is Doubtful Will Hold.
14:54 hours - Duration 1 hour 42 minutes
FC: Progress Report for your 4th Alarm Box 3217, at the address 730 Van Nest Ave, Chief of Operations Sweeney reports: we have a collapse of the original fire building and partial collapse of exposure 4A. We have fire in the original fire building, exposure 2, exposure 2A, exposure 4, and exposure 4A. At this time we have 3 handlines stretched in operation, 3 tower ladders setup, and he's placing the fire Probably Will Hold
15:08 hours - Duration 1 hour 56 minutes
FC: Progress Report for your 4th Alarm Box 3217, we have a corrected address for the original fire building of 726 Van Nest Ave, Chief of Operations Sweeney reports: continuing to operate with 3 tower ladders and 3 handlines stretched, this is an exterior operation, Fire Marshals are on scene checking with neighbors to see if any occupants are unaccounted for. Fire remains Probably Will Hold. Also as per Chief Sweeney, Air-Recon is going 10-8.
15:24 hours - Duration 2 hour 12 minutes
FC: Progress Report for your 4th Alarm Box 3217, at the address 726 Van Nest Ave, Chief of Operations Sweeney reports: still have fire in the main fire building and exposures 2 and 4. This remains an exterior operation and will be an extended operation. Main body of fire is knocked down, companies still continuing to knock down pockets, he places the fire Under Control.
Relocations:
Engines: 74/38, 306/45, 67/50, 297/64, 22/75, 259/79, 92/88, 80/94, 62/97
Ladders: 26/27, 151/37, 19/38, 51/41, 160/50, 144/54
Battalions: 11/17, 52/18, 49/27, 50/??

Recentlya black Firefighter found a noose hanging in or on his locker in the Firehouse, incidents like this should not be tolerated and people need to be aware that something that may be a "Joke" to you may not be funny to others. This could have been a major issue here. The City was aware of the situation and according to the local press/TV coverage a investigation is being conducted by the FD,PD and law dept. The member who was responsible for this admitted to the act and now may have to face disciplinary action pending the outcome of the investigation. It doesn't matter what race you are when it comes to a situation like this.Use your head and think of the consequences down the road!

Bunker gear is designed for structural firefighting. Not brush/wildland firefighting. Why wouldn't you require the right PPE for the job? Jeans and long sleeves may be comfortable but they're not going to protect you from fire if it turns on you or conditions change.
You're right. We focus more on apparatus then we do on other important aspects of the job.
All it is is nomex material? Damn straight. It beats the hell out of jeans and t-shirts and I've seen too many FF wearing that at brush fires.
Your comments are not from a wildland FF. I'm sure if you had more wildland experience you wouldn't be so dismissive of the right PPE for the job.
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/Ash%20Pit%20Safety%20Advisory.pdf
http://www.nwcg.gov/general/memos/nwcg-008-2010.html
http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/410-1/chapter01.pdf
Does anyone actually carry fire shelters or have real wildland firefighting training?
Just like everyone here criticizes those who do structural firefighting without the right training and equipment, I can't believe that anyone really thinks it's OK to do wildland firefighting in jeans.

Cause Haz-Mat, Tech Rescue, and Field Comm all get big fancy trucks!
What's so cool about nomex pants and shirts and a bundle of rakes?

Bunker gear is designed for structural firefighting. Not brush/wildland firefighting. Why wouldn't you require the right PPE for the job? Jeans and long sleeves may be comfortable but they're not going to protect you from fire if it turns on you or conditions change.
You're right. We focus more on apparatus then we do on other important aspects of the job.
All it is is nomex material? Damn straight. It beats the hell out of jeans and t-shirts and I've seen too many FF wearing that at brush fires.
Your comments are not from a wildland FF. I'm sure if you had more wildland experience you wouldn't be so dismissive of the right PPE for the job.
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/Ash%20Pit%20Safety%20Advisory.pdf
http://www.nwcg.gov/general/memos/nwcg-008-2010.html
http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/410-1/chapter01.pdf
Does anyone actually carry fire shelters or have real wildland firefighting training?
Just like everyone here criticizes those who do structural firefighting without the right training and equipment, I can't believe that anyone really thinks it's OK to do wildland firefighting in jeans.

I'm fascinated by that statistic. What exactly did 109 departments do at this fire? How much did they each send? Did they all actually operate or is that back-fill and coverage?
Without knowing exactly what resources were committed/operating, that's a very hollow stat for me.

Our department has a local Personal Trainer who comes in twice a week and runs 1 hr interval training. Each member pays $10 per session and the department provides the place and equipment. As was noted above, just buying equipment is not enough. We've had numerous machines, bikes, treadmills, benches, etc. but their use was really up to a few self motivated individuals. With our personal trainer, more people have committed to being there twice a week (just a jumping off point). Part of why we can do it on the cheap ($10/pp/hr) is the number of people that come. We've had great response from local trainers as due to job changes, pregnancy or other we've had three different ones all willing to work for peanuts to help out.
While exercise is only one part of losing weight, the other benefits of being fitter are important to firefighters. Just improving balance and core strength helps you stay upright far easier when operating on uneven surfaces, ice, flowing hoses, etc. etc.etc.
Our department has a local Personal Trainer who comes in twice a week and runs 1 hr interval training. Each member pays $10 per session and the department provides the place and equipment. As was noted above, just buying equipment is not enough. We've had numerous machines, bikes, treadmills, benches, etc. but their use was really up to a few self motivated individuals. With our personal trainer, more people have committed to being there twice a week (just a jumping off point). Part of why we can do it on the cheap ($10/pp/hr) is the number of people that come. We've had great response from local trainers as due to job changes, pregnancy or other we've had three different ones all willing to work for peanuts to help out.
While exercise is only one part of losing weight, the other benefits of being fitter are important to firefighters. Just improving balance and core strength helps you stay upright far easier when operating on uneven surfaces, ice, flowing hoses, etc. etc.etc.

The best thing about every diet or exercise plan anyone here and everywhere else will suggest is that they work. Running, lifting weights, crossfit, MMA, walking, eating less, no carbs, all meat, all raw, nothing with a shadow, whatever it is is.
They all have the same fatal flaw. YOU have to stick to it. Do it till you get bored then do something else. Do a bunch of them, or just do one of them. Just do something! Please, do something and get others to join you. Moose and every other member here. None of us are perfect and the sooner you get at it, the easier and more beneficial it is down the road.

For anyone who may be interested in starting to lose weight the physiology of metabolism is helpful/interesting. As far as balancing calories taken in versus how many we use, by far the most efficient way to lose weight is by eating less. Only 15% of the calories we burn each day are from activity. The other 85% we have no control over. So while exercise is very important, it is equally or more important to eat a healthy balanced diet.
So you want to lose a pound of fat? Here's the math. 1 pound of fat is 3500 calories, so to lose that pound you must either increase your activity level to burn that extra pound or cut out 3500 calories. Cutting out 500 calories a day (7*500 = 3500 ) puts you at a 1 pound a week loss. This level is generally accepted as a safe amount of weight loss.
Stay healthy and stay safe!

Please consider something less boring than a gym or the related equipment. I have all of that...the Nordic track makes a great Nordic coat rack... Try karate or krav maga type training. You'll run a little, do some situps and pushh ups, but more importantly you'll get your heart rate going enough to burn pounds and build the endurance you need to be good at what you do. And the perk with krav training is that you'll get hit war less often by EDPs and drug addicts looking to fight. Humor me... Www.Kmny.us I gain nothing if you join, but if it jeeps you alive longer, I as the local ER nurse, will be soo happy! My greatest day at work is when I don't have to care for my brothers and sisters. Seriously.

Firemoose827: When was the last time you had a full checkup???? You are starting to worry me with your "symptoms", and absolutely do NOT want to read about you in a RIP post - please follow up - you know the warning signs, and the big RED flasher is going off - either that or I am overreacting, but......
Please.

Bunker gear is designed for structural firefighting. Not brush/wildland firefighting. Why wouldn't you require the right PPE for the job? Jeans and long sleeves may be comfortable but they're not going to protect you from fire if it turns on you or conditions change.
You're right. We focus more on apparatus then we do on other important aspects of the job.
All it is is nomex material? Damn straight. It beats the hell out of jeans and t-shirts and I've seen too many FF wearing that at brush fires.
Your comments are not from a wildland FF. I'm sure if you had more wildland experience you wouldn't be so dismissive of the right PPE for the job.
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/Ash%20Pit%20Safety%20Advisory.pdf
http://www.nwcg.gov/general/memos/nwcg-008-2010.html
http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/410-1/chapter01.pdf
Does anyone actually carry fire shelters or have real wildland firefighting training?
Just like everyone here criticizes those who do structural firefighting without the right training and equipment, I can't believe that anyone really thinks it's OK to do wildland firefighting in jeans.

Bunker gear is designed for structural firefighting. Not brush/wildland firefighting. Why wouldn't you require the right PPE for the job? Jeans and long sleeves may be comfortable but they're not going to protect you from fire if it turns on you or conditions change.
You're right. We focus more on apparatus then we do on other important aspects of the job.
All it is is nomex material? Damn straight. It beats the hell out of jeans and t-shirts and I've seen too many FF wearing that at brush fires.
Your comments are not from a wildland FF. I'm sure if you had more wildland experience you wouldn't be so dismissive of the right PPE for the job.
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/Ash%20Pit%20Safety%20Advisory.pdf
http://www.nwcg.gov/general/memos/nwcg-008-2010.html
http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/410-1/chapter01.pdf
Does anyone actually carry fire shelters or have real wildland firefighting training?
Just like everyone here criticizes those who do structural firefighting without the right training and equipment, I can't believe that anyone really thinks it's OK to do wildland firefighting in jeans.

Bunker gear is designed for structural firefighting. Not brush/wildland firefighting. Why wouldn't you require the right PPE for the job? Jeans and long sleeves may be comfortable but they're not going to protect you from fire if it turns on you or conditions change.
You're right. We focus more on apparatus then we do on other important aspects of the job.
All it is is nomex material? Damn straight. It beats the hell out of jeans and t-shirts and I've seen too many FF wearing that at brush fires.
Your comments are not from a wildland FF. I'm sure if you had more wildland experience you wouldn't be so dismissive of the right PPE for the job.
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/Ash%20Pit%20Safety%20Advisory.pdf
http://www.nwcg.gov/general/memos/nwcg-008-2010.html
http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/410-1/chapter01.pdf
Does anyone actually carry fire shelters or have real wildland firefighting training?
Just like everyone here criticizes those who do structural firefighting without the right training and equipment, I can't believe that anyone really thinks it's OK to do wildland firefighting in jeans.

This is precisely why you won't see those "young guys" being hired by Federal Law Enforcement Agencies. Word in the hiring circles, is that it is very rare to find an 1811 (Special Agent) in any of the Federal Agencies who were hired below the age of 25. I have a few former co-workers who went federal. They were all told during the hiring process that life experience plays a major role in the decision making process simply for the fact that maturity comes into play.
I have encountered plenty of young 20-somethings, with a masters level education, who have the moral standards and decision making prowess of a teenager.

I say yes...case in point - we responded to a kitchen fire - fire on the stove, got into the cabinet above, held with a can, then knocked down with a line...heavy smoke throughout (very greasy Indian meal)...I went in with a hook and the TIC..checked the walls - plaster and lathe..I had ONE bay that was significantly lighter than the rest with a very small hole in the wall...I wanted to open it up but was told no.."plaster and lathe...it holds the heat longer!" no kidding...thanks...that was one case that sticks out that I REALLY wanted to have my eyes on the proof..not the TOC's...
Funny story about reflections...my very good freind and cousin were the line at a fire in a bar...they made entry...saw the glow and proceeded to open the line up...after a while they realized the glow wasnt darkening down and it was getting hotter behind them...they soun around and found heavy fore from the kitchen area which they knocked down quickly...the first glow they saw was the REFLECTION of the fire in the mirrored wall behind the bar!
The TIC is a good tool to do an area search at night with at MVA's where you cant find the driver or occupants!
Here is a link to a fire a few years ago where I feel, taking a few seconds to do a quick look with a TIC saved myself and another fireman..
http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/29783-millbrooks-structure-fire-fatal-11709/page__p__167209__hl__millbrook__fromsearch__1#entry167209

Thanks for beating me to the punch. So many people misunderstand the technology and even teach it wrong or testify about it wrong.
If you do the glass experiment and come back 15 minutes later you may still see the faint outline as the glass continues to cool. The capabilities of the imager are nothing short of amazing. We do that with tire marks and vehicle locations all the time.
But that's a reflection just like any other camera. If the operator isn't properly trained and lacks experience, he may not even recognize that's what it is.
Train often!

Thermal image cameras cannot see through ANY materials. It the heat that must pass through the material and get to the surface that is being read by the TIC. The TIC only sees differences in temperature, however minute, and that's all.
Try this: Spread your hand and hold it on a piece of glass like a car window for about 30 seconds then remove your hand. Look at the spot where your hand was with the TIC. You will see the image of your hand. That's because your hand heated the glass and the glass has not cooled. The TIC is seeing leftover heat....nothing else.

The TIC is one of the best improvemnts the fire service has seen in the last 30 years. The problem comes in if it is just plain thrown on the rig and training is not done. Now as we become accoustomed to using it we run the danger of relying on it.
For me the best use of the TIC is locating the fire. When confronted with a zero visibility situation and the need to locate the fire the TIC is phenomonal. In the past members relied on things like listening and feeling heat on their ears and blind searching which all had inherent flaws. The TIC allows you to find the fire faster and allows you to get water on the fire faster and that makes everything better. Now the TIC is very useful at assisting with the primary search but the reason I rank finding the fire higher is this is your number one priority is to locate the fire. Once you locate the fire you know the life hazard. Also locating the fire makes us safer.
The TIC is also a supervisory tool. It allows you to keep track of your crew. Compare doing a large area search with tag lines compared to the Officer guided TIC search I think the TIC guided search is acutually safer.
As for using the TIC to guide overhaul I think this is the least benifical use of the camera. After a decent fire almost everything is white on the camera. The fire areas should still be opened up based on standard practices. And opening up should continue until clean bays are found. This is not to say that you should not use the TIC I always do but regardless of what it shows there are areas that I will open anyway.
As for training sometimmes people on here are looking for some outside trainers to come in and on this topic I would reccomend Safe IR. They are excellent instructors and are the experts on the topic.

I obviously can't speak from the fire perspective regarding TIC's but I do use one on a daily basis so I can share some general perspectives... Like any other tool or technology, the TIC has it's place and it has it's limitations. Relying exclusively on any single tool or technique has it's problems but the TIC is probably one tool that isn't used often enough. It should be used all the time so the user becomes proficient in its use and in the interpretation of what it is telling you. If you only break it out at a working fire, it can be misleading because you're always looking at a super heated environment (it's like me looking at everything at noon when the sun is high and everything is warmed by solar radiation).
The input from the TIC should be viewed with the totality of the circumstances and used to draw an informed conclusion from all the sources - visual inspection, touch, etc.
If other signs suggest that it's appropriate I guess so. The only thing a TIC does is measure heat. If a wall is well insulated or another heat source (hot water pipe, ducting, etc.) is or can be masking the heat from a smoldering fire, you probably do have to open up.
Again, go by the totality of the circumstances and your experience. Not a single tool or observation.