Morningjoe

Now there's a reasonable response to an entire organization because of the acts of one man.

Now there's a reasonable response to an entire organization because of the acts of one man.

I am waiting to see what the investigations actually turn up before I start throwing accusations or other negative comments around willy-nilly.

Don't you mean FASNY, which lobbies against same standards of training for professional career staffing, and volunteer members? If I was a betting man, which I've been known to be, I'd place my money on the non-uniformed training standards of volunteers, vs known and required training of career firefighters as the reason for not being called into Mt. Vernon and a majority of other career/combo departments.Why would I roll the dice with the qualifications of those coming in, vs knowing when I call for an engine, I'm gonna get exactly what I asked for in terms of manning and qualifications?

Don't you mean FASNY, which lobbies against same standards of training for professional career staffing, and volunteer members? If I was a betting man, which I've been known to be, I'd place my money on the non-uniformed training standards of volunteers, vs known and required training of career firefighters as the reason for not being called into Mt. Vernon and a majority of other career/combo departments.Why would I roll the dice with the qualifications of those coming in, vs knowing when I call for an engine, I'm gonna get exactly what I asked for in terms of manning and qualifications?

Don't you mean FASNY, which lobbies against same standards of training for professional career staffing, and volunteer members? If I was a betting man, which I've been known to be, I'd place my money on the non-uniformed training standards of volunteers, vs known and required training of career firefighters as the reason for not being called into Mt. Vernon and a majority of other career/combo departments.Why would I roll the dice with the qualifications of those coming in, vs knowing when I call for an engine, I'm gonna get exactly what I asked for in terms of manning and qualifications?

Don't you mean FASNY, which lobbies against same standards of training for professional career staffing, and volunteer members? If I was a betting man, which I've been known to be, I'd place my money on the non-uniformed training standards of volunteers, vs known and required training of career firefighters as the reason for not being called into Mt. Vernon and a majority of other career/combo departments.Why would I roll the dice with the qualifications of those coming in, vs knowing when I call for an engine, I'm gonna get exactly what I asked for in terms of manning and qualifications?

Don't you mean FASNY, which lobbies against same standards of training for professional career staffing, and volunteer members? If I was a betting man, which I've been known to be, I'd place my money on the non-uniformed training standards of volunteers, vs known and required training of career firefighters as the reason for not being called into Mt. Vernon and a majority of other career/combo departments.Why would I roll the dice with the qualifications of those coming in, vs knowing when I call for an engine, I'm gonna get exactly what I asked for in terms of manning and qualifications?

Don't you mean FASNY, which lobbies against same standards of training for professional career staffing, and volunteer members? If I was a betting man, which I've been known to be, I'd place my money on the non-uniformed training standards of volunteers, vs known and required training of career firefighters as the reason for not being called into Mt. Vernon and a majority of other career/combo departments.Why would I roll the dice with the qualifications of those coming in, vs knowing when I call for an engine, I'm gonna get exactly what I asked for in terms of manning and qualifications?

why would the unions stop home rule?

Sorry, but no. Not why we need a bailout system. This is why we need ground ladders placed quickly and efficiently. Among other things.
Looking at that video, there were many things to do before bailing out.
Am I advocating for not having bailout systems, no?
But, that room didn't flash in a matter of seconds. It was free burning and finally got to him. Get to an area of refuge, close a door, do a window hang until the ladder arrives.
Bailouts and survival should be part of our training, but watching that video, my first thought was not, I wished he had a bailout kit. It was, I wished his boys had placed ground ladders like good operators and truckies should. But once that didn't happen...yes...It was time to bail.
Play heads up, don't get caught in the first place..

Awesome. Add more workload but it's all good because there's technology to make it better.
Just because it looks cool, or seems awesome, Doesn't mean it is.
Remember, one plow is now doing the job of two. With ONE driver. That means less drivers are needed. Less jobs.
Kinda like those self checkout lanes. Seems cool, but it's just a way to pull jobs off the line. You can have one person doing the same job four used to be doing.

Last night, Eastchester took the manpower from Engine 31 and placed them on Tower Ladder 17 to respond to the fire scene in Mount Vernon.
Why is a department that is already understaffed, stripping an entire section of town of coverage to send to another understaffed department? I wouldn't want to live on Garth Rd and need a Tower Ladder.

What amazes me is at this point, with the way they're burning the candle at both ends of extremely low, inexperienced manpower, and low member turnout on calls, that the state hasn't stepped in and said enough is enough before a disaster happens. The District has already basically come out and stated, indirectly, that they don't think the experience in the ranks in good enough to run the department successfully by adding a line item in the budget for a career chief.

What amazes me is at this point, with the way they're burning the candle at both ends of extremely low, inexperienced manpower, and low member turnout on calls, that the state hasn't stepped in and said enough is enough before a disaster happens. The District has already basically come out and stated, indirectly, that they don't think the experience in the ranks in good enough to run the department successfully by adding a line item in the budget for a career chief.

What amazes me is at this point, with the way they're burning the candle at both ends of extremely low, inexperienced manpower, and low member turnout on calls, that the state hasn't stepped in and said enough is enough before a disaster happens. The District has already basically come out and stated, indirectly, that they don't think the experience in the ranks in good enough to run the department successfully by adding a line item in the budget for a career chief.

What amazes me is at this point, with the way they're burning the candle at both ends of extremely low, inexperienced manpower, and low member turnout on calls, that the state hasn't stepped in and said enough is enough before a disaster happens. The District has already basically come out and stated, indirectly, that they don't think the experience in the ranks in good enough to run the department successfully by adding a line item in the budget for a career chief.

WOW.
So what difference would it make if Jim made $200,000 or the other candidate who gets elected makes $200,000? How would that change the outcome?
Did the opposing side do anything illegal? Please do not bring up the immoral or inappropriate ways this played out. Maybe looking at how that fire district conducts its business and the damage it causes on daily basis if you want to see immorality and inappropriate behavior.
A lot of people chimed in and put in their two cents. You know who the only true losers will be? The members that serve the district and public. The drama and "payback" that I am sure is already in the works and the toll it will take on members with dissenting opinions will be far reaching and those who have targets on their backs, who already have lost friendships, who have already suffered and who still struggle to find a reason to serve and do the right thing will lose again.
The fact is the Somers Fire District is in terrible shape. It is a sinking ship with its crew members busy fighting each other and looking out for their own interests and egos as boat goes down. If it wasnt for the fact that REAL people will die and property will be lost this would be a great TV show. Its a bad movie where real people suffer.
Jim Arena is a great person. A friend. A man I know I could count on anytime, anyplace, anywhere. He is well respected and liked among the people, even among the ones that did vote against him last night.
By the way. Do you have proof that the other candidate started any of those rumors, made any of those emails, or did any of those appalling things you say they did?
Or are you just as guilty of spreading vicious, outrageous and false claims as the person you so vehmently despise?

This is exactly what I was trying to convey, but just laid a very simple non-descriptive scenario out there, and I should have been more specific.

Sometimes, even in this scenario, putting water on the fire may be the best initial action. In our FD, we heavily refer to the 5 Basic Concepts laid out in Chapter 1 of the Fire Officer's Handbook of Tactics:
1. When proper manpower isn't available to do both rescue and extinguishment at the same time, rescue must be given priority.
2. When you don't have sufficient manpower to perform all the need tasks, perform those first that protect the greatest number of lives.
3. Remove those in greatest danger first.
4. When you have the staffing to do both rescue and fire attack at the same time, they must be coordinated.
5. Where there is no threat to occupants, firefighters lives should not be unduly endangered.
Again, understanding the conditions you face, the actual time to effect the rescue and a the likely challenges facing a "rescue only" approach may indicate that controlling the fire is the most appropriate first action. How imminent is the threat to the know rescue? Will you be able to make it? Will your actions make conditions worse such that an unsuccessful attempt will seal the victims fate? There is no one answer, except hoping the person making the decision at that moment is at the top of their game.

The main issue here is that everyone is comparing FDNY's tactics, to their own and others. If your department can place 4 fully staffed engines, 3 full staffed ladders, a fully staffed rescue, 2 battalion chiefs on location, all trained to FDNY's minimum training standards, then by all means, compare away. FDNY's guys arrive on scene and each member basically has 1 function to perform... and that's it. 99.99% of other departments, when you arrive, are going to be expected to multitask and call audibles on the fly.
However, most of us are showing up with less then the NFPA's required 16 personnel for a single family residential home (2,000 sqft) within the first 8 minutes. That doesn't even account for larger McMansions or even high rise or OMDs. Each department must look at their manpower on any given moment, and make prudent tactical decisions based off of the situation that has been presented at that very moment.

Showing up with 2 guys and no officer on the first due engine, with no confirmed reports or identifying signs of people inside? Stretch your handline, IF NEEDED, give it a quick shot before you mask up, make entry and perform an aggressive interior attack, while your backup man and or second due companies search off the line.

Same staffing, but with confirmed reports of people trapped with a known location? Life above all else. Mask up, and either perform a normal search, or VES the area where the victim is expected to be.
Basement fire? Whats the harm of popping the bilco door, or venting a small basement window and giving it a quick shot, and allow the gasses to vent and cool, and maybe flash BEFORE you make entry and flash on you and your crew.
To sit here and say that every situation should require transitional (which, btw, is just a fancy name for a task that has been employed since the dawn of firefighting with a new fancy buzz name now) or strictly aggressive interior, or defensive attack, is ludicrous. Proper training, and knowledge of situational awareness and the ability to properly apply each individual tactic and strategy appropriately is what we should be discussing.
I highly recommend people read "Suburban Fire Tactics," by Jim Silvernail. He addresses issues that minimally staffed departments around the country face everyday, and goes over tactics and strategies to bring back and apply to your departments as necessary. Here is a fire engineering article he wrote that discusses some of the aforementioned points, and a link to purchase his book:
http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-164/issue-3/features/suburban-fire-tactics-prioritizing-functions-and-developing-preferred-operating-methods.html

https://books.google.com/books/about/Suburban_Fire_Tactics.html?id=QYDAxE_8e_QC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

The main issue here is that everyone is comparing FDNY's tactics, to their own and others. If your department can place 4 fully staffed engines, 3 full staffed ladders, a fully staffed rescue, 2 battalion chiefs on location, all trained to FDNY's minimum training standards, then by all means, compare away. FDNY's guys arrive on scene and each member basically has 1 function to perform... and that's it. 99.99% of other departments, when you arrive, are going to be expected to multitask and call audibles on the fly.
However, most of us are showing up with less then the NFPA's required 16 personnel for a single family residential home (2,000 sqft) within the first 8 minutes. That doesn't even account for larger McMansions or even high rise or OMDs. Each department must look at their manpower on any given moment, and make prudent tactical decisions based off of the situation that has been presented at that very moment.

Showing up with 2 guys and no officer on the first due engine, with no confirmed reports or identifying signs of people inside? Stretch your handline, IF NEEDED, give it a quick shot before you mask up, make entry and perform an aggressive interior attack, while your backup man and or second due companies search off the line.

Same staffing, but with confirmed reports of people trapped with a known location? Life above all else. Mask up, and either perform a normal search, or VES the area where the victim is expected to be.
Basement fire? Whats the harm of popping the bilco door, or venting a small basement window and giving it a quick shot, and allow the gasses to vent and cool, and maybe flash BEFORE you make entry and flash on you and your crew.
To sit here and say that every situation should require transitional (which, btw, is just a fancy name for a task that has been employed since the dawn of firefighting with a new fancy buzz name now) or strictly aggressive interior, or defensive attack, is ludicrous. Proper training, and knowledge of situational awareness and the ability to properly apply each individual tactic and strategy appropriately is what we should be discussing.
I highly recommend people read "Suburban Fire Tactics," by Jim Silvernail. He addresses issues that minimally staffed departments around the country face everyday, and goes over tactics and strategies to bring back and apply to your departments as necessary. Here is a fire engineering article he wrote that discusses some of the aforementioned points, and a link to purchase his book:
http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-164/issue-3/features/suburban-fire-tactics-prioritizing-functions-and-developing-preferred-operating-methods.html

https://books.google.com/books/about/Suburban_Fire_Tactics.html?id=QYDAxE_8e_QC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

The main issue here is that everyone is comparing FDNY's tactics, to their own and others. If your department can place 4 fully staffed engines, 3 full staffed ladders, a fully staffed rescue, 2 battalion chiefs on location, all trained to FDNY's minimum training standards, then by all means, compare away. FDNY's guys arrive on scene and each member basically has 1 function to perform... and that's it. 99.99% of other departments, when you arrive, are going to be expected to multitask and call audibles on the fly.
However, most of us are showing up with less then the NFPA's required 16 personnel for a single family residential home (2,000 sqft) within the first 8 minutes. That doesn't even account for larger McMansions or even high rise or OMDs. Each department must look at their manpower on any given moment, and make prudent tactical decisions based off of the situation that has been presented at that very moment.

Showing up with 2 guys and no officer on the first due engine, with no confirmed reports or identifying signs of people inside? Stretch your handline, IF NEEDED, give it a quick shot before you mask up, make entry and perform an aggressive interior attack, while your backup man and or second due companies search off the line.

Same staffing, but with confirmed reports of people trapped with a known location? Life above all else. Mask up, and either perform a normal search, or VES the area where the victim is expected to be.
Basement fire? Whats the harm of popping the bilco door, or venting a small basement window and giving it a quick shot, and allow the gasses to vent and cool, and maybe flash BEFORE you make entry and flash on you and your crew.
To sit here and say that every situation should require transitional (which, btw, is just a fancy name for a task that has been employed since the dawn of firefighting with a new fancy buzz name now) or strictly aggressive interior, or defensive attack, is ludicrous. Proper training, and knowledge of situational awareness and the ability to properly apply each individual tactic and strategy appropriately is what we should be discussing.
I highly recommend people read "Suburban Fire Tactics," by Jim Silvernail. He addresses issues that minimally staffed departments around the country face everyday, and goes over tactics and strategies to bring back and apply to your departments as necessary. Here is a fire engineering article he wrote that discusses some of the aforementioned points, and a link to purchase his book:
http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-164/issue-3/features/suburban-fire-tactics-prioritizing-functions-and-developing-preferred-operating-methods.html

https://books.google.com/books/about/Suburban_Fire_Tactics.html?id=QYDAxE_8e_QC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

The main issue here is that everyone is comparing FDNY's tactics, to their own and others. If your department can place 4 fully staffed engines, 3 full staffed ladders, a fully staffed rescue, 2 battalion chiefs on location, all trained to FDNY's minimum training standards, then by all means, compare away. FDNY's guys arrive on scene and each member basically has 1 function to perform... and that's it. 99.99% of other departments, when you arrive, are going to be expected to multitask and call audibles on the fly.
However, most of us are showing up with less then the NFPA's required 16 personnel for a single family residential home (2,000 sqft) within the first 8 minutes. That doesn't even account for larger McMansions or even high rise or OMDs. Each department must look at their manpower on any given moment, and make prudent tactical decisions based off of the situation that has been presented at that very moment.

Showing up with 2 guys and no officer on the first due engine, with no confirmed reports or identifying signs of people inside? Stretch your handline, IF NEEDED, give it a quick shot before you mask up, make entry and perform an aggressive interior attack, while your backup man and or second due companies search off the line.

Same staffing, but with confirmed reports of people trapped with a known location? Life above all else. Mask up, and either perform a normal search, or VES the area where the victim is expected to be.
Basement fire? Whats the harm of popping the bilco door, or venting a small basement window and giving it a quick shot, and allow the gasses to vent and cool, and maybe flash BEFORE you make entry and flash on you and your crew.
To sit here and say that every situation should require transitional (which, btw, is just a fancy name for a task that has been employed since the dawn of firefighting with a new fancy buzz name now) or strictly aggressive interior, or defensive attack, is ludicrous. Proper training, and knowledge of situational awareness and the ability to properly apply each individual tactic and strategy appropriately is what we should be discussing.
I highly recommend people read "Suburban Fire Tactics," by Jim Silvernail. He addresses issues that minimally staffed departments around the country face everyday, and goes over tactics and strategies to bring back and apply to your departments as necessary. Here is a fire engineering article he wrote that discusses some of the aforementioned points, and a link to purchase his book:
http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-164/issue-3/features/suburban-fire-tactics-prioritizing-functions-and-developing-preferred-operating-methods.html

https://books.google.com/books/about/Suburban_Fire_Tactics.html?id=QYDAxE_8e_QC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

The main issue here is that everyone is comparing FDNY's tactics, to their own and others. If your department can place 4 fully staffed engines, 3 full staffed ladders, a fully staffed rescue, 2 battalion chiefs on location, all trained to FDNY's minimum training standards, then by all means, compare away. FDNY's guys arrive on scene and each member basically has 1 function to perform... and that's it. 99.99% of other departments, when you arrive, are going to be expected to multitask and call audibles on the fly.
However, most of us are showing up with less then the NFPA's required 16 personnel for a single family residential home (2,000 sqft) within the first 8 minutes. That doesn't even account for larger McMansions or even high rise or OMDs. Each department must look at their manpower on any given moment, and make prudent tactical decisions based off of the situation that has been presented at that very moment.

Showing up with 2 guys and no officer on the first due engine, with no confirmed reports or identifying signs of people inside? Stretch your handline, IF NEEDED, give it a quick shot before you mask up, make entry and perform an aggressive interior attack, while your backup man and or second due companies search off the line.

Same staffing, but with confirmed reports of people trapped with a known location? Life above all else. Mask up, and either perform a normal search, or VES the area where the victim is expected to be.
Basement fire? Whats the harm of popping the bilco door, or venting a small basement window and giving it a quick shot, and allow the gasses to vent and cool, and maybe flash BEFORE you make entry and flash on you and your crew.
To sit here and say that every situation should require transitional (which, btw, is just a fancy name for a task that has been employed since the dawn of firefighting with a new fancy buzz name now) or strictly aggressive interior, or defensive attack, is ludicrous. Proper training, and knowledge of situational awareness and the ability to properly apply each individual tactic and strategy appropriately is what we should be discussing.
I highly recommend people read "Suburban Fire Tactics," by Jim Silvernail. He addresses issues that minimally staffed departments around the country face everyday, and goes over tactics and strategies to bring back and apply to your departments as necessary. Here is a fire engineering article he wrote that discusses some of the aforementioned points, and a link to purchase his book:
http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-164/issue-3/features/suburban-fire-tactics-prioritizing-functions-and-developing-preferred-operating-methods.html

https://books.google.com/books/about/Suburban_Fire_Tactics.html?id=QYDAxE_8e_QC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false