Morningjoe

If it meets the needs of the department, great. But you should never buy apparatus to fill the needs of other departments. You get what you need and you make it work as best you can for them.
Years ago I worked on an engine replacement project for a dept. in another county. The chief wanted a 3,000 gpm engine (replacing a 1,000 gpm unit). The commissioners were concerned that it was not needed. I was interviewing the chief and asked what the best hydrant in the district was (1,200 gpm), did they have a multi looped hydrant system and if they had any drafting locations (no). I asked how was he going to get 3,000 gpm to put into the pump in his town? He said they wanted it because if they had the biggest pump in the county, everyone would call them mutual aid and his ff's would get more experience. I asked if he understood he was asking to spend enough for 2 standard engines and then was going to strip the community of it and personnel on a regular basis? He said he never thought of it that way and dropped the idea.

The solution has been stated here multiple times now, and I feel like you're not getting the answer you're looking for.
There is a much bigger issue going on in your department then having the policy put into place. It stems from the irresponsible nature of your department allowing itself to, from your words, rely fully on 18 year old (EightTEEN) students in high school to supply your town with emergency services.
If your department (FD or EMS) cannot get a well staffed rig with well qualified individuals on the road after the first page, then you should be thinking about career staffing, or other means to supply emergency services to the people who have entrusted you with their lives. Paging out 2-3-4 times is ludicrous, and endangers the entire community; plus it makes you look/sound like a a bunch of yahoos morons who cant get a rig out to your surrounding fire departments. There should be a 1 page, 4 minute rule, period. Can't get out? K, the next closet department is getting dispatched.

The solution has been stated here multiple times now, and I feel like you're not getting the answer you're looking for.
There is a much bigger issue going on in your department then having the policy put into place. It stems from the irresponsible nature of your department allowing itself to, from your words, rely fully on 18 year old (EightTEEN) students in high school to supply your town with emergency services.
If your department (FD or EMS) cannot get a well staffed rig with well qualified individuals on the road after the first page, then you should be thinking about career staffing, or other means to supply emergency services to the people who have entrusted you with their lives. Paging out 2-3-4 times is ludicrous, and endangers the entire community; plus it makes you look/sound like a a bunch of yahoos morons who cant get a rig out to your surrounding fire departments. There should be a 1 page, 4 minute rule, period. Can't get out? K, the next closet department is getting dispatched.

The solution has been stated here multiple times now, and I feel like you're not getting the answer you're looking for.
There is a much bigger issue going on in your department then having the policy put into place. It stems from the irresponsible nature of your department allowing itself to, from your words, rely fully on 18 year old (EightTEEN) students in high school to supply your town with emergency services.
If your department (FD or EMS) cannot get a well staffed rig with well qualified individuals on the road after the first page, then you should be thinking about career staffing, or other means to supply emergency services to the people who have entrusted you with their lives. Paging out 2-3-4 times is ludicrous, and endangers the entire community; plus it makes you look/sound like a a bunch of yahoos morons who cant get a rig out to your surrounding fire departments. There should be a 1 page, 4 minute rule, period. Can't get out? K, the next closet department is getting dispatched.

Kids in High school belong in bed well rested for the school day. They don't need the added stress of responding to emergencies, nor do they need the distraction. If your dept. relies on 18 year olds in school, then they're in trouble.....

School rules before FD rules for students who have yet to graduate from high school.
If the FD is that dependent on FF's who are still in high school, then the FD bears responsibility to find itself some qualified people who are beyond high school. The school is not cutting into the FD's resources; the FD placed too many eggs in one basket.

I think that before you take to the keyboard you should get the facts. You make quite a serious allegation of your department being influenced by an outside source, do you know this to be true? Question these types of things in house before going to the all mighty internet.
Now as far as the policy, good job! They are kids in school. Schooling is required for a job, a job is required to feed a family. I don't think my volunteer department had ever bought dinner for my kids.

It's amazing that some firemen can even move at all...

I did not jump to any conclusions, I asked a question as to who wrote the captions that used the words. Those words could have come back to bite the dept on the ass IF someone got hurt. NFPA 1403 2012 edition is more strict than the previous versions because of acquired structure live burns. Glad everything went well, but nobody's live burn exercise ever started out with the statement "we will kill or injure a firefighter today".
For everybody reading this, Chiefs, commissioners, company officers, you HAVE to read the new standard to understand YOUR personal and dept. liability. The game has changed even for training facilities.

Amen, Barry!
Sadly, FASNY's misguided priorities (blue lights, dumbing-down training standards, etc.) only hold us back. The volunteer fire service needs to understand that FASNY and the attitude they represent do nothing to increasing firefighter safety. And it is unrealistic for the volunteer fire service in NY to get the respect that so many want as long as we have training "apartheid"!

FAST should be part of FF1

Here what I learned from all this. greenwich is trying to expand its ranks and build a new firehouse. Good for the guys in Greenwich. Dixie is annoyed that Seth posted a link to the article.

I'm on my phone right now, but I'll keep this short and sweet.
We both assumed more then we should have. I'm both career and volunteer. I started as a volly and got hired, and continue to volunteer with the same all volunteer department to this day. I work on two man engines and single man trucks. Glad to know you had a job in the fire service.
I'll hit more when I get back to a computer

What really irks me, more then the article itself, is that we have a fellow emergency provider, someone who is supposed to be on the same team as all of us, trying to defend the abysmal staffing of what occurs in almost 99.9% of career departments (volunteer staffing is a different problem altogether, and I'm a volunteer). It's not safe for anyone, and anyone who sits there and tries to defend it is absolutely clueless about firefighting, the safety issues that we face (and manage to miraculously dodge fire after fire without more LODDs), and the politicians that we currently fight with day in and day out to provide a safe environment for the communities we've sworn to protect. All of the fire engines in the world mean absolutely nothing, if the correct staffing levels are not there to safely, correctly and efficiently do the job.
I am not a paramedic, and will never sit there and attempt to tell you your protocols need to change when it comes to dosage rates of atropine during a heart attack, because I don't have a damn clue about what I'm talking about. I am not a electrician, nor a painter, or a ditch digger, or a cable repair man, so I will never sit there and tell them how to do their job, or the correct and safe way to do it.
So until you strap on a pair of bunkers, make a hallway, pull a victim out, all while having a vertical vent simultaneously cut, with multiple handlines being stretched, don't tell me the safe way to do my job, because I've also done it the poor staffing way, and can tell you the horrible differences between the two.
This is a public forum now, and every reply that is posted can be read by the public, press, politicians, and those who vote. And for someone who is supposed to be on the same team, as stated in your affiliations under your user name, to sit there and say 2 guys on a rig is perfectly good, does absolutely nothing but hurt us, and all the years of work that unions have fought for.
/rant.

What really irks me, more then the article itself, is that we have a fellow emergency provider, someone who is supposed to be on the same team as all of us, trying to defend the abysmal staffing of what occurs in almost 99.9% of career departments (volunteer staffing is a different problem altogether, and I'm a volunteer). It's not safe for anyone, and anyone who sits there and tries to defend it is absolutely clueless about firefighting, the safety issues that we face (and manage to miraculously dodge fire after fire without more LODDs), and the politicians that we currently fight with day in and day out to provide a safe environment for the communities we've sworn to protect. All of the fire engines in the world mean absolutely nothing, if the correct staffing levels are not there to safely, correctly and efficiently do the job.
I am not a paramedic, and will never sit there and attempt to tell you your protocols need to change when it comes to dosage rates of atropine during a heart attack, because I don't have a damn clue about what I'm talking about. I am not a electrician, nor a painter, or a ditch digger, or a cable repair man, so I will never sit there and tell them how to do their job, or the correct and safe way to do it.
So until you strap on a pair of bunkers, make a hallway, pull a victim out, all while having a vertical vent simultaneously cut, with multiple handlines being stretched, don't tell me the safe way to do my job, because I've also done it the poor staffing way, and can tell you the horrible differences between the two.
This is a public forum now, and every reply that is posted can be read by the public, press, politicians, and those who vote. And for someone who is supposed to be on the same team, as stated in your affiliations under your user name, to sit there and say 2 guys on a rig is perfectly good, does absolutely nothing but hurt us, and all the years of work that unions have fought for.
/rant.

What really irks me, more then the article itself, is that we have a fellow emergency provider, someone who is supposed to be on the same team as all of us, trying to defend the abysmal staffing of what occurs in almost 99.9% of career departments (volunteer staffing is a different problem altogether, and I'm a volunteer). It's not safe for anyone, and anyone who sits there and tries to defend it is absolutely clueless about firefighting, the safety issues that we face (and manage to miraculously dodge fire after fire without more LODDs), and the politicians that we currently fight with day in and day out to provide a safe environment for the communities we've sworn to protect. All of the fire engines in the world mean absolutely nothing, if the correct staffing levels are not there to safely, correctly and efficiently do the job.
I am not a paramedic, and will never sit there and attempt to tell you your protocols need to change when it comes to dosage rates of atropine during a heart attack, because I don't have a damn clue about what I'm talking about. I am not a electrician, nor a painter, or a ditch digger, or a cable repair man, so I will never sit there and tell them how to do their job, or the correct and safe way to do it.
So until you strap on a pair of bunkers, make a hallway, pull a victim out, all while having a vertical vent simultaneously cut, with multiple handlines being stretched, don't tell me the safe way to do my job, because I've also done it the poor staffing way, and can tell you the horrible differences between the two.
This is a public forum now, and every reply that is posted can be read by the public, press, politicians, and those who vote. And for someone who is supposed to be on the same team, as stated in your affiliations under your user name, to sit there and say 2 guys on a rig is perfectly good, does absolutely nothing but hurt us, and all the years of work that unions have fought for.
/rant.

What really irks me, more then the article itself, is that we have a fellow emergency provider, someone who is supposed to be on the same team as all of us, trying to defend the abysmal staffing of what occurs in almost 99.9% of career departments (volunteer staffing is a different problem altogether, and I'm a volunteer). It's not safe for anyone, and anyone who sits there and tries to defend it is absolutely clueless about firefighting, the safety issues that we face (and manage to miraculously dodge fire after fire without more LODDs), and the politicians that we currently fight with day in and day out to provide a safe environment for the communities we've sworn to protect. All of the fire engines in the world mean absolutely nothing, if the correct staffing levels are not there to safely, correctly and efficiently do the job.
I am not a paramedic, and will never sit there and attempt to tell you your protocols need to change when it comes to dosage rates of atropine during a heart attack, because I don't have a damn clue about what I'm talking about. I am not a electrician, nor a painter, or a ditch digger, or a cable repair man, so I will never sit there and tell them how to do their job, or the correct and safe way to do it.
So until you strap on a pair of bunkers, make a hallway, pull a victim out, all while having a vertical vent simultaneously cut, with multiple handlines being stretched, don't tell me the safe way to do my job, because I've also done it the poor staffing way, and can tell you the horrible differences between the two.
This is a public forum now, and every reply that is posted can be read by the public, press, politicians, and those who vote. And for someone who is supposed to be on the same team, as stated in your affiliations under your user name, to sit there and say 2 guys on a rig is perfectly good, does absolutely nothing but hurt us, and all the years of work that unions have fought for.
/rant.

What really irks me, more then the article itself, is that we have a fellow emergency provider, someone who is supposed to be on the same team as all of us, trying to defend the abysmal staffing of what occurs in almost 99.9% of career departments (volunteer staffing is a different problem altogether, and I'm a volunteer). It's not safe for anyone, and anyone who sits there and tries to defend it is absolutely clueless about firefighting, the safety issues that we face (and manage to miraculously dodge fire after fire without more LODDs), and the politicians that we currently fight with day in and day out to provide a safe environment for the communities we've sworn to protect. All of the fire engines in the world mean absolutely nothing, if the correct staffing levels are not there to safely, correctly and efficiently do the job.
I am not a paramedic, and will never sit there and attempt to tell you your protocols need to change when it comes to dosage rates of atropine during a heart attack, because I don't have a damn clue about what I'm talking about. I am not a electrician, nor a painter, or a ditch digger, or a cable repair man, so I will never sit there and tell them how to do their job, or the correct and safe way to do it.
So until you strap on a pair of bunkers, make a hallway, pull a victim out, all while having a vertical vent simultaneously cut, with multiple handlines being stretched, don't tell me the safe way to do my job, because I've also done it the poor staffing way, and can tell you the horrible differences between the two.
This is a public forum now, and every reply that is posted can be read by the public, press, politicians, and those who vote. And for someone who is supposed to be on the same team, as stated in your affiliations under your user name, to sit there and say 2 guys on a rig is perfectly good, does absolutely nothing but hurt us, and all the years of work that unions have fought for.
/rant.

I cannot imagine that GFD responds, on the first alarm within 8 minutes, this:



Anything less, and you're endangering life, of both your citizens, as well as the firefighters there.

What really irks me, more then the article itself, is that we have a fellow emergency provider, someone who is supposed to be on the same team as all of us, trying to defend the abysmal staffing of what occurs in almost 99.9% of career departments (volunteer staffing is a different problem altogether, and I'm a volunteer). It's not safe for anyone, and anyone who sits there and tries to defend it is absolutely clueless about firefighting, the safety issues that we face (and manage to miraculously dodge fire after fire without more LODDs), and the politicians that we currently fight with day in and day out to provide a safe environment for the communities we've sworn to protect. All of the fire engines in the world mean absolutely nothing, if the correct staffing levels are not there to safely, correctly and efficiently do the job.
I am not a paramedic, and will never sit there and attempt to tell you your protocols need to change when it comes to dosage rates of atropine during a heart attack, because I don't have a damn clue about what I'm talking about. I am not a electrician, nor a painter, or a ditch digger, or a cable repair man, so I will never sit there and tell them how to do their job, or the correct and safe way to do it.
So until you strap on a pair of bunkers, make a hallway, pull a victim out, all while having a vertical vent simultaneously cut, with multiple handlines being stretched, don't tell me the safe way to do my job, because I've also done it the poor staffing way, and can tell you the horrible differences between the two.
This is a public forum now, and every reply that is posted can be read by the public, press, politicians, and those who vote. And for someone who is supposed to be on the same team, as stated in your affiliations under your user name, to sit there and say 2 guys on a rig is perfectly good, does absolutely nothing but hurt us, and all the years of work that unions have fought for.
/rant.

What really irks me, more then the article itself, is that we have a fellow emergency provider, someone who is supposed to be on the same team as all of us, trying to defend the abysmal staffing of what occurs in almost 99.9% of career departments (volunteer staffing is a different problem altogether, and I'm a volunteer). It's not safe for anyone, and anyone who sits there and tries to defend it is absolutely clueless about firefighting, the safety issues that we face (and manage to miraculously dodge fire after fire without more LODDs), and the politicians that we currently fight with day in and day out to provide a safe environment for the communities we've sworn to protect. All of the fire engines in the world mean absolutely nothing, if the correct staffing levels are not there to safely, correctly and efficiently do the job.
I am not a paramedic, and will never sit there and attempt to tell you your protocols need to change when it comes to dosage rates of atropine during a heart attack, because I don't have a damn clue about what I'm talking about. I am not a electrician, nor a painter, or a ditch digger, or a cable repair man, so I will never sit there and tell them how to do their job, or the correct and safe way to do it.
So until you strap on a pair of bunkers, make a hallway, pull a victim out, all while having a vertical vent simultaneously cut, with multiple handlines being stretched, don't tell me the safe way to do my job, because I've also done it the poor staffing way, and can tell you the horrible differences between the two.
This is a public forum now, and every reply that is posted can be read by the public, press, politicians, and those who vote. And for someone who is supposed to be on the same team, as stated in your affiliations under your user name, to sit there and say 2 guys on a rig is perfectly good, does absolutely nothing but hurt us, and all the years of work that unions have fought for.
/rant.

What really irks me, more then the article itself, is that we have a fellow emergency provider, someone who is supposed to be on the same team as all of us, trying to defend the abysmal staffing of what occurs in almost 99.9% of career departments (volunteer staffing is a different problem altogether, and I'm a volunteer). It's not safe for anyone, and anyone who sits there and tries to defend it is absolutely clueless about firefighting, the safety issues that we face (and manage to miraculously dodge fire after fire without more LODDs), and the politicians that we currently fight with day in and day out to provide a safe environment for the communities we've sworn to protect. All of the fire engines in the world mean absolutely nothing, if the correct staffing levels are not there to safely, correctly and efficiently do the job.
I am not a paramedic, and will never sit there and attempt to tell you your protocols need to change when it comes to dosage rates of atropine during a heart attack, because I don't have a damn clue about what I'm talking about. I am not a electrician, nor a painter, or a ditch digger, or a cable repair man, so I will never sit there and tell them how to do their job, or the correct and safe way to do it.
So until you strap on a pair of bunkers, make a hallway, pull a victim out, all while having a vertical vent simultaneously cut, with multiple handlines being stretched, don't tell me the safe way to do my job, because I've also done it the poor staffing way, and can tell you the horrible differences between the two.
This is a public forum now, and every reply that is posted can be read by the public, press, politicians, and those who vote. And for someone who is supposed to be on the same team, as stated in your affiliations under your user name, to sit there and say 2 guys on a rig is perfectly good, does absolutely nothing but hurt us, and all the years of work that unions have fought for.
/rant.