fdalumnus

I have read on a number of sites the backlash, almost all based on the board being unpatriotic or trying to be PC.
 
Beyond, what the board reported as being a safety issue, no one knows what the motivation is. 
 
But, I have witnessed, flags getting larger and larger on the back of rigs, to the point that we are disrespectful of the flag.
 
On engines, I have witnessed hose being laid over a flag that's so large that without wind or driving it hung below the level of the bed.
 
On ladders, I have witnessed grease and tattered ends on the flag where it whips against the turntable gear. I have also seen where it rubs on ground ladders as they are moved in and out of the ladder tunnel.
 
On all rigs, I have seen filthy flags, because the dirt that swirls around the rear of the rigs.
 
On the safety side, I have seen them hiding flashing safety lights, turn signals and break lights. Saw one get burned by high intensity flood lights and have seen firefighters grabbing the flag to help them climb the rig.
 
This is not patriotic, nor is it how the flag should be respected! I am not saying they should be removed, but consider how we are displaying them.

 
I'm sure the senior citizen that owns it will gladly accept monetary assistance and volunteer labor
 

Go the website http://fairchesterhosehaulers.org/ and fill in the blanks. I'll also let you know when the next meeting is, we can use a good man like you.

Yes the community must decide, but they must also be given information that is truthful. We just witnessed in Portchester the mayor and chief swear they had 150 interior volunteers, when the records show less than 60. They said, don't worry, the dept. didn't need career personnel, but in two months time their are now mounting complaints that the response times are noticeably worst. If the dept. lies to itself and the public, how can the public make a proper judgement?
 
you are correct that this attitude exists, but in far to many VFD the real threat to the members is, declining membership, failing to respond in a timely manner and lack of training.

So what are the costs vs savings when we include insurance?
 
in my city the average taxpayer is paying less than $275/yr for a career fire department. If we eliminated the FD and gave back everyone's $ the cost of insurance on those average homes would increase by about $1,200/yr.
 
If we were to switch to a volunteer dept. to main the same rating as we have now, it would require a minimum of 48 volunteers responding on every fire call.
 
so the big question is how many communities can manage that?

Unfortunately, most citizens don't worry about their fire coverage...until they need it. 
As many of you have stated, most civilians are clueless as to what or who is protecting them.
I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I live in New Windsor, why are you (Vails Gate) here?" Well, because you live in the Vails Gate fire district, within the Town of New Windsor. 
I am currently purchasing a home in another fire district. Some of my first questions were "what is the water system" and "what emergency services am I getting?" That is because I know enough to ask.
Many people will say you can't justify a career dept in XYZ town. Well, it would be justified the first fire where a life or property were saved, no?
A good start toward this would be (do I dare say it), consolidation.

 
But do they have enough in coverage to cover their losses ? Is the insurance company going to pay in a timely factor ? 
 
I recently spoke to an old friend of mine whose is a career ff in one municipality while being a fire commissioner and and volunteer in the town he resides in. Told me his vfd has trouble just getting a rig out the door. I suggested it may be time to hire. His response was his taxes were close to 20k a year, how much more can the citizens afford. I told him whre I worked (combo dept w/ 3 around the clock} the average homeowner paid about three hundred dollars a year in fire taxes. Of course the people with the mansions paid lots more, but they were happy to pay, they wanted service. Conversation ended. 
 
Again, when ISO comes into the equation, things change. BNechis could elaborate better than I ever can about the fire ins. premium vs fire tax story

 
But do they have enough in coverage to cover their losses ? Is the insurance company going to pay in a timely factor ? 
 
I recently spoke to an old friend of mine whose is a career ff in one municipality while being a fire commissioner and and volunteer in the town he resides in. Told me his vfd has trouble just getting a rig out the door. I suggested it may be time to hire. His response was his taxes were close to 20k a year, how much more can the citizens afford. I told him whre I worked (combo dept w/ 3 around the clock} the average homeowner paid about three hundred dollars a year in fire taxes. Of course the people with the mansions paid lots more, but they were happy to pay, they wanted service. Conversation ended. 
 
Again, when ISO comes into the equation, things change. BNechis could elaborate better than I ever can about the fire ins. premium vs fire tax story

 
 You and I might ask those questions and demand answers, but we are looking at this from an informed perspective based on our years of fire service experience.  Most of our citizens do not have that experience to draw from when assessing performance of their local fire department.  It's basically a real world example of Pavlov's theory in action.
 
The citizens have been conditioned over time that when a fire occurs, the fire department shows up at some point relatively soon afterwards, squirts some water at it, the house is a loss, everybody goes back to the fire station to pat themselves on the back about how great of a job they did and the public praises the FD for their efforts (since the whole block didn't burn down I guess).  The community has been conditioned to expect that when a fire breaks out, the building will burn down and stopping it short of that is the exception rather than the rule.  It's not really their fault because they don't really know the results could be different.
 
I've had the opportunity to observe numerous FDs in action (primarily VFDs) while working on the ambulance over the years.  I've witnessed many R&C fires that gutted the whole house because of the FDs actions.  I've witnessed some fires that despite the FD's best efforts, the fire still went out.  The public simply has no concept of what a "good job" actually is.  The incident I described above is a prime example of this.  The post incident focus was on the water supply problem being the reason most of the building burned down, but the FD's shortcomings/initial actions/decisions all played a role in the fire getting as big as it did.
 
I've used this analogy a number of times regarding this and it applies regardless of the type of department, hamburgers can be pretty tasty, curb your hunger and leave you feeling satisfied, but if you've never tasted a quality steak, then you don't know how much better that steak can be compared to the hamburger.  Once you know, that hamburger may not be as satisfying as it once was.
 
 

In some communities people are willing to pay an increase for paid firefighters, in others they are not, no matter how small that increase might be. That is their choice and it is they that have to live with that decision.  Now I don't know anything about this town from the video, nor will I comment on their operations here...I wasn't there, and video or not, there are factors which I may not know that may have impacted this particular fire. If I lived in this (or any) community and the VFD always ended up with the same or similar results, than you bet your a$$ I'd be asking some questions and demanding some answers. 
 
From my own experience, one of the major factors that comes up when the idea of adding some career staffing is tossed about, beyond the money, is a resistance on the part of many volunteers. This resistance stems from fairly common belief among vollys that this step is the beginning of the end for their VFDs. It may not be right, prudent, proper, logical or whatever, but the feeling that once the door opens the days of the volunteers are numbered is very real...and it does influence decisions. And quite frankly it is not without at least a modicum of supporting evidence that this is true in some cases. This brings me back to my earlier post. While we all should be thinking about those we serve first, we often don't and we justify that with any number of reasons, including a fear of being eliminated over time. The animosity and "us" against "them" mentality which so permeates the fire service today has created this environment and the negative results that stem from it. No matter how "right" an argument may be the simple reality is all the stakeholders have to be on board so that those who are served are served in THEIR best interest. It is a travesty that this is so often overlooked in the pursuit of this or that agenda. There is much that binds us all as firefighters, and nothing more so than our common mission of protecting life and property, but we have let so much interfere with that truth and become so entrenched on our "side" of the divide that it sometimes seems impossible to bridge the gap. But that gap can be bridged with a little effort...and more importantly, a little courage to do what best for our citizens instead of ourselves.. 

 
I'm sure the senior citizen that owns it will gladly accept monetary assistance and volunteer labor
 

 
I'm sure the senior citizen that owns it will gladly accept monetary assistance and volunteer labor
 

 
I'm sure the senior citizen that owns it will gladly accept monetary assistance and volunteer labor
 

In the old days we did the same as the navy. Broke a bottle of champagne over the front bumper. Usually gave the honor to one of the wives of a deceased firefighter.
 
Six aerial devices throwing water, another rear mount standing nearby; whose minding the store where these rigs came from ? Just a thought, not looking to start a s&%tstorm.

 
I'm sure the senior citizen that owns it will gladly accept monetary assistance and volunteer labor
 

4 down (or should I say up) and 4 to go. Rye Brook hired another FULLY TRAINED EXPERIENCED former pcfd firefighter. City of Rye FD has also recently hired 2. Hopefully the other 4 will find jobs.
 
But I've been wondering. The Port Chester mayor changed his ways when he saw, in plain black and white, that the response times since the move to an all volunteer department, have gone up. Simple common sense. How much longer does it now take for a fire dept response ?
 
On another note, I heard that the captains of Rescue 40 (Fire Patrol and Rescue) and Engine 63 (Putnam Eng and Hose) have resigned their positions in protest of how the three chiefs are running the dept. Have also heard many other members have somewhat "walked away" due to dissension. Sounds like a rebellion is stirring.

4 down (or should I say up) and 4 to go. Rye Brook hired another FULLY TRAINED EXPERIENCED former pcfd firefighter. City of Rye FD has also recently hired 2. Hopefully the other 4 will find jobs.
 
But I've been wondering. The Port Chester mayor changed his ways when he saw, in plain black and white, that the response times since the move to an all volunteer department, have gone up. Simple common sense. How much longer does it now take for a fire dept response ?
 
On another note, I heard that the captains of Rescue 40 (Fire Patrol and Rescue) and Engine 63 (Putnam Eng and Hose) have resigned their positions in protest of how the three chiefs are running the dept. Have also heard many other members have somewhat "walked away" due to dissension. Sounds like a rebellion is stirring.

Painted new York Blue  There was one at the New Roc toll
booth 

What a disgrace. And this individual is in a career of helping people, give me a break.

Update - The Firefighter's contract was passed by the Board of Representatives tonight with a vote of 20 in agreement and 4 abstentions. 

Pete, I hate to sound like an extremist, but many (such as yourself) have invested time and personal capital to try and prevent this type of continued behavior and hostility.
 
To try and sabotage a negotiation that has taken more than 5 years for the Union to reach is nothing short of a "nuclear" sized mistake on the part of these 5 "chiefs".
 
I am not surprised that a couple of these people would continue to fan the flames in Stamford, but having all 5 take part appears to be a collective effort by all remaining volunteers.
 
Disagreements over each departments operations, tactics, hose lays, policies, vehicle colors, etc. are understandable within the fire service....attempting to affect the livelihood of the families of 280 union members is inexcusable and something that will not fade with time.
 
If the volunteer Chiefs wanted to unite Stamford career firefighters behind one common enemy for many, many years to come, they will have finally succeeded at something. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I find it interesting that Stamford volunteers that can't find common ground for issues such as joint-training, accountability, staffing, radio procedures, etc; but always seemed to form a concrete bond and unite whenever the City, Union, or City Fire Department can be attacked.
 
Volunteer firefighters wiring a letter against a tentative agreement after it has been reached in good faith between the City and the Union....
 
The same volunteers then go on to create a telephone campaign to City Representatives to spread more fear and lies about this agreement????
 
I have often read here how volunteers are often unfairly attacked by the big bad IAFF or how the IAFF has these (special pamphlets) that encourage hostility toward volunteers (ALL BS).
 
Yet, here is a glaring and very tangible example of another case were a handful of pathetic volunteer Fire Chiefs have attempted to affect the livelihoods of more than 280 union firefighters. Much like Port Chester, jealousy appears to be the number one value being promoted by some of these organizations. 
 
I can think of no more clear example of why the term "RIVAL ORGANIZATION" exists.
 
Regardless of what action occurs from the Stamford Board of Representatives, the damage done by these 5 clowns will assure an epic fissure will exist between career and volunteers in Stamford. For these 5 ninnies have managed to instantly erode any chance for cohesion within the system. Something that I suspect they knew full well when concocting their letter.
 
 
 
 

We welcome you back "Update on Stamford Merger'. With almost 308,000 views, 69 pages and 2,065 post, plus this one, this has been NO DOUBT, the most popular, and most interesting thread on this site.
 
It's been awhile since I've made a visit to Stamford. But as I read that letter to the BOR one or two things mentioned particularly caught my attention.
 
One was about the fire apparatus riding right by the volunteer station. I knew that not too long ago, there were two individual mobile homes being used by the Stamford FD. One was used by the members of Engine 8 and I think one was used by the members of Engine 9. I understand the reason those mobile trailers/firehouses had to be put there is because TWO of those volunteer fire companies would NOT allow the career firefighters to operate out of their stations.  Turn of the River Vol Firehouse was one and has about three or four bays in a two story building. I would think there would be enough room for that piece of apparatus (E 8) and the three on duty firefighters. I believe these are within a 1/2 to 1 mile of each other.
 
  The other mobile trailer/firehouse (Engine 9 - ?) is even closer to the other Vol fire house.
 
  Wouldn't it be better to have Eng 8 operating out of TOR Firehouse and Eng 9 operating out of that other volunteer firehouse. That way EVERYBODY would know when the call came in and respond together.
 
  That's just common sense. Just close down those mobile trailer/firehouses and move those two companies into those Volly houses. The only real problem with that is if there is a problem with the career guys, they can be disciplined. But what can be done if there's a problem with the Volunteer guys.
 
  They move into the same firehouse and close down those mobile trailers.
 
  Training is another question I had. Is EVERYBODY really trained to the same level. Yes Firefighter basic level but didn't most of those Stamford guys have to attend some kind of recruit school ?

1) Cost Effective? Really? While the pre-manufactured Butler style garage and living quarters is a cheap way to house firefighters, they are a stones throw from multi bay volunteer stations that refuse to allow the staffed units to be stationed with them and at the same time fail to get their fleet staffed during calls. so now you have multiple stations blocks apart covering each other. Total waste of $$$.
2) Thank god they don't. While I am all for regionalization. If one of the 59 local FD in Westchester can not provide an immediate response, they have a few options: 1. Work on internal issues to increase manpower, including shifts. 2. Merge with 1 or more other depts. 3. hire staff, 4. all of the above.
If a VFD in Westchester is unable to staff its calls it has options. Staffing career regional rigs is a Band-Aid they puts the financial burden on the county taxpayers and not on the local ones. Since my local taxes grantee a response to my house why should my county taxes go up to cover other locals who are unwilling to pay?

F.D.N.Y. operates five heavy rescue companies and seven squad companies. The Rescue Companies are assigned full sized, heavy rescue apparatus and each are supplemented by a Collapse Response rig which carries additional equipment needed for structural and trench collapse rescue. The seven squad companies are assigned rescue pumpers which carry some extrication and technical rescue equipment. Each squad company is assigned a second piece that carries some additional technical rescue equipment as well as the haz mat technician gear that is assigned to the squads. Every rescue and squad firefighter is trained to the same level (rescue technician, hazmat technician, etc.). Every ladder company is fully equipped to perform vehicle extrication (complete Hurst Tool package, reciprocating saws, air bags, cribbing, etc.). Accident Victim Extrication as well as FAST / RIT are basic firefighter skills. Every member of the F.D.N.Y. is trained to perform automobile extrication's and FAST / RIT (as should every firefighter in every department, career or volunteer). A rescue company is assigned to start out on confirmed pins at the scene of a vehicle accident in case it proves to be a prolonged or particularly complicated incident. Departments whose 'rescue' work is limited to non technical rescue situations can very easily equip ladder or pumper apparatus with the items necessary for basic auto extrication responses. A county technical rescue team could be strategically located and assigned the necessary equipment and apparatus for any rescue incidents requiring services that are not available at the local VFD level. The savings in each department would be substantial. Another area where tremendous savings can be realized is the strategic locating of aerial apparatus. Many volunteer departments are located very close together making it extreme overkill for each department to own and maintain one or more aerial and or tower ladders.