antiquefirelt

Again, good info. As I noted I'd not recommend ignoring threats, but I have to say I'm torn between watching our country let these bastards win the easy victory, by forcing us to change to the point that our citizens are protesting each other. We're federally funding huge dollar amounts to combat a very small percentage of threat compared to the number of persons affected by common crime and fires, yet we continue to see fire and police departments slashed to less than bare bones levels. It is a fine balancing act to adequately protect ourselves from the threat of terrorists, and maintain our open society where utilizing mass transit or attending prolific events is not so complicated that we'd rather stay home.
As for the IRA, they learned to warn people as in their earlier years they lost huge amounts of support when so many innocents died. This in no way changes their acts as terrorism, but somewhat puts them on a different level than Al Qaeda, et als. The radicals we fear today are much less likely to share common Christan values such as not taking the lives of children.

We have the "no one turns us around but us" policy. It's not a slap int he face to our PD, but basically an acknowledgement that they are there for other reasons than we are. We slow our response, even call off multiple units, but one bus always continues if injuries were reported at any point. This does a few things: one it absolves the city of liability incurred when a non-EMS provider(LEO) agrees with a victims' self-assessment and is wrong about their medical needs; and two, we're been called countless times to "PD Only" accidents where the LEO is onscene for 20 minutes and suddenly the pain sets in and EMS is called. Of course we do not have 4 units responding or even multiple houses, so mass confusion at the scene is very rare. We don't give criminal advice, LEO's don't give medical advice, and everyone is capable of reporting fire or smoke showing. And we do not respond to all MVA's by any stretch, PD handles probably 60% without us, we only respond when injuries are reported or fire/fluids/etc. are an issue.

To directly answer one of your questions, there have been HUNDREDS of bombings worldwide that have been preceded by a note or warning. However, I must say that most (>99%) of the "bomb threats" (there are many different types) are false but must be taken on face value. That is not to say that common sense does not play a role but let’s face it, it's about liability. Do you want to be the manager of the Wal-Mart that does have a device detonate after a threat after you do NOTHING? Do you want to be the superintendant of the school system after a written threat and then students get killed after you do NOTHING? We live in a society of litigation and until that changes neither will manager's response to these types of "threats". Personally, do I believe that a massive response is needed in every situation.....? No. But, it is the world we live in.
As to the issue of the "over-reaction" and lack of "common sense" as some have referred to this response as.... I would say your responses are arrogant and complacent. The responders found what looked like an improvised explosive device and in my opinion, and those of us who live in a world where people do want to kill us, an appropriate response. There have been, in my personal knowledge, A LOT of "plots" that have been thwarted by the average citizens. The fact of the matter is "see something, say something" works and those of you, especially in this community, who recommend otherwise, in my opinion, need more training. In case any of you forgot, terrorists (home-grown, Al-Qaeda, or otherwise) have and will continue to try to kill us.
Better to shut down I-95 for an hour than have people die. That is the reality unless you were one of those stuck in traffic, unless, it was an actual device and one of your loved-ones were killed.

While many of us probably can agree that lesser targets may be just that, there should be no excuse for not taking the job seriously and at least using it as a procedural rollout. Where we live on the mid-coast of Maine, chances of a target are slim to know, but... Just north of us in a smaller town, a Neo-Nazi was building bombs, thankfully his wife could no longer take his abuse and offed him, the investigation revealed significant potential for this guy to have caused an incident of national importance. I think it was in Time magazine just a few months ago.
Our Haz-mat/WMD team has run on numerous suspicious package, powder, odor incidents and they usually ramp up fast and then terminate quickly too as the threat credibility is zilch. Each incident is run like the threat is there until it is dis-proven. Obviously, in an area where threats are so low, it may be easier to take this approach, but the general consensus is not "if it happens again", but "when and where it will happen again". We should be more vigilant and efficient than we ever were in the past.

My oh my how the times they have a-changed. First thing, I personally want to give the original poster a pass (just my opinion) for the way this thing got broken out into a new topic. I admit he did overreact to what was done, but I personally understand his point. I also understand the moderators point, so lets let it go everybody? There's more important things going on right now than to bicker over how this became it's own thread.
But now that it is, let's take a look at what happened. The chief in question, it's my understanding he wasn't the most popular of chiefs, but who ever is? He put basically his whole life into an organization of 10,000, and rose to the top. But because we are all so conditioned to think firefighting/policing/EMSing are SERVANT careers, it's done for free in so many places too, etc., it brings peoples' blood to boiling when they read something like this.
Yet the payouts to the bankers who have made such a mess of the economy; nobody blinks when they see 50 million dollars, 20 million dollars to this or that executive of an investment bank. We are conditioned to accept the fact that bankers make huge money, but somehow firefighters should be "kept as servants."
The pension costs are going up for the NYCP&FPS (different from the state) because of how many 9/11 ailments the Brothers are contracting. The FDNY does breathing tests. If you can't pass it, you're out. So, the city has to pay for the additional costs. and is that so much to ask for the sacrifices the FDNY members have made since 9/11? How many of you personally know a Brother with 9/11 related illness? I happen to know two.
You know what Zadroga is about from an FDNY member's standpoint? It's about those sick members wanting to see to it that their wives continue to get their pensions if their ailments turn into cancer and they die.
Think about that.
Is that so greedy? Is it so greedy that a chief who served over 40 years of his life, probably had more than his fair share of risky moments during his career, probably saved a few lives along the way, which is more than you can say about the banker walking out the door with a 20 million dollar severance package, that he gets a quarter million a year?
Why the outrage? Why have so many forgotten so quickly? In the aftermath of 9/11, there were the famous people out there talking about how the FDNY was going to get better pay and compensation going forward. You know what Rudy gave them in the two years after 9/11? ZERO and ZERO percent contract. Where did the talking heads go? They had their moment in the spotlight, on the deaths of hundreds of Brothers backs, and where did they go? What did they accomplish? Where are they now when the FDNY needs them badly?
They want the Engine officers to start doling out tickets for car fires and accidents. They are going to be trained in A.I. They are going to wind up in courts in the middle of battles.
And yet, the department readies plans to shutter and brown out companies at night.
Where did the RESPECT go? Time.......leads people to forget. And then add in an anti-union rag like the NY POST, making a big deal about the chief, enraging people against the fire department. Nice job Mr. Murdoch, now please return to the Land Down Under from which you came and belong.
Listen guys and gals, the working class people in this country are under attack. I posted a link here recently showing the average payouts from the NYSP&FRS. It's NOWHERES near what this city chief is making. The State fund is 107 percent funded right now, the healthiest in the country. Good planning, now just watch your politicians don't go and screw with that, which is what they are trying to do.
Whenever politicians see money sitting there, set aside and invested for the working people, they can't resist trying to get their greedy little hands on it. Well hands off the pension system, and you know what? New York city residents are going to have to PAY UP for the pensions that the Brothers need, especially the sick ones. It's the least they can do in the aftermath of our country's worst homeland attack in our history. and i'm sure Manhattan real estate is still going to rise past the average million dollars for 600 square feet. They'll survive. The chief gets to live good for his remaining years; why begrudge him? Why vilify him?
NEVER FORGET, we all love to say it, wrap that Flag around our shoulders. Yet do we forget when we vilify some FDNY members because the NY POST says we should?
Think about it.

One of the best things about our job (volly, carreer, paid on call, whatever) is the blind admiration that the kids have for us. If you don't wave back shame on you. So that's why the addition of the balls was a bad move. The small interactions you have with the public when out and about can have great benifits down the road in budget or staffing battles.
Plenty of tricks still go on but PPE, apparatus, and equipment should be off limits.

Officership doesn't start or end on the fireground. Having the top spot filled with someone who cannot understand the country we live in today, whether we agree or not, is foolish and harms the FD as a whole. Not to mention failure to follow a directive by the Mayor. Immature and amateurish are the best I can sum this man's actions with, both adjectives I'd never want used about a Fire Chief.

Officership doesn't start or end on the fireground. Having the top spot filled with someone who cannot understand the country we live in today, whether we agree or not, is foolish and harms the FD as a whole. Not to mention failure to follow a directive by the Mayor. Immature and amateurish are the best I can sum this man's actions with, both adjectives I'd never want used about a Fire Chief.

Officership doesn't start or end on the fireground. Having the top spot filled with someone who cannot understand the country we live in today, whether we agree or not, is foolish and harms the FD as a whole. Not to mention failure to follow a directive by the Mayor. Immature and amateurish are the best I can sum this man's actions with, both adjectives I'd never want used about a Fire Chief.

It really is a sad state of affairs when people actually think this is acceptable. I bought a sticker for the old spare rig we had at work, it said, 'horn broke, watch for finger'. Guess what, I never put it on. It is a funny idea, but that is where it ends. Too many sensitive people out there, and way too many sensitive people on the unemployment line and plenty of free time.

Tapout, Great post.
A minor clarification needs to be added. Most of the numbers everyone else is listing is PPM of CO in air. Yours if I'm not mistaken are the carboxyhemaglobin values (CO in blood).
5 ppm in air is considered normal backround levels (up to 9ppm is considered normal by EPA) and I've find 5ppm to be common in kitchens from normal cooking, small rooms with 2 heavy smokers and even just well insulated homes.

The issue with multi-gas detectors is that they generally must be "fresh air bumped" before any use and cannot sit with he power on 100% of the time. The single gas disposable CO detectors have a sealed 24 month battery and require little maintenance and limited user interaction (infrequent fresh air bumps every 30 days or so. The actual CO detection within the units is either far more simple than most other gases or due to the proliferation (millions of in home units) the technology was made simpler as there is a large market for it. We run a handful of multi-gas meters as well on fire apparatus and all the other sensors seem to require far more intervention by way of sensor replacement and/or span gas calibration. Most of these units run CO/O2/LEL/H2S. Also, the aniticpation of most other gases being present without signs/symptoms is far lower than CO.
CO (carbon monoxide): odorless, colorless, virtually undetectable without metering/detection equipment
LEL (lower explosive limits): The common expectation is natural gas or LPG leaks, both of which are treated with an odorant to ensure leaks are detectable by the human nose.
O2 (oxygen concentration): very little expectation of a low O2 issue in most settings. Calls where this mighjt occur are generally known to the responders and anticipated (or should be).
H2S (hydrogen sulfide): stinks like rotten eggs/ sulfur. Also more predicable if you understand the common causes and places to anticipate it.
Other Gases: Most other gases are metered for when they're anticipated. Most of us don't carry Chlorine sensors routinely, but guys in treatment plants might (being phased out?) The same with many other gases that are far less common outside specific settings.
This is how many of us think. It's good to be highly suspicious in this business. Flu season can bring about whole households of sick people displaying CO poisoning symptoms, but being suspicious could uncover that it is not in fact the flu. Without the detectors or as part of your investigative "toolkit" understanding other signs of CO potential such as tight dwelling units with condensation on the inside of the windows, soot near floor registers, fuel oil odors, etc. all can help.

How bad do you have to mismanage a City to end up with a one year tax increase of 69%? What suddenly came up that created this huge change? The article lost me on the impact of the $200K savings? What's the increase after the cuts?
Now when a business has a fire, the damage will be worse and the likelihood of the same business re-opening in Newburgh is far less, so the taxpayers lose again. This cycle only gets worse as more vacant properties invite crime and detract from home values and a positive business climate. So as services erode, the taxpayers lose more as businesses leave, their own property values drop, their taxes increase and the services they do pay for are far more limited in scope and efficiency. Recipe for restructure.

Currently their is no minimum manning clause in our contract. We are currently trying to negotiate a new contract which includes over 1 million dollars in concessions (which includes: salary cuts, schedule changes, loss of a couple of holidays, give back of HR time.....ect) If signed, the new contract will have a manning clause which would save the 12 guys.
As far as the volunteers....we have gotten the verbal commitment from numerous (of course not all) surrounding depts stating that they will not go into the city if the layoffs occur.
If anyone is hiring please let me know...

How bad do you have to mismanage a City to end up with a one year tax increase of 69%? What suddenly came up that created this huge change? The article lost me on the impact of the $200K savings? What's the increase after the cuts?
Now when a business has a fire, the damage will be worse and the likelihood of the same business re-opening in Newburgh is far less, so the taxpayers lose again. This cycle only gets worse as more vacant properties invite crime and detract from home values and a positive business climate. So as services erode, the taxpayers lose more as businesses leave, their own property values drop, their taxes increase and the services they do pay for are far more limited in scope and efficiency. Recipe for restructure.

How bad do you have to mismanage a City to end up with a one year tax increase of 69%? What suddenly came up that created this huge change? The article lost me on the impact of the $200K savings? What's the increase after the cuts?
Now when a business has a fire, the damage will be worse and the likelihood of the same business re-opening in Newburgh is far less, so the taxpayers lose again. This cycle only gets worse as more vacant properties invite crime and detract from home values and a positive business climate. So as services erode, the taxpayers lose more as businesses leave, their own property values drop, their taxes increase and the services they do pay for are far more limited in scope and efficiency. Recipe for restructure.

I'm not sure if this was what BNECHIS was driving at or not, but: those of us working 24 hr shifts have a three times as likely need to take sick time per "day". Many people can get by their 8 hrs with many illnesses, to go home that night, whereas feeling like crap and not be 100% for a 24 hour tour is asking a lot. Not to mention if someone at city hall doesn't give their 100%, no one even notices, whereas in emergency work, not giving your all can be deadly. We rely on each other to get home safely after each tour, coming to work at 60% should not be an option.

Just curious if this program has worked to reduce overall sick time use. I know a lot of people roll their eyes at the thought of paying for not using time but they fail to realize the savings involved can be quite large. If you look at an 8 hour shift that is covered with an O/T person the actual hourly rate paid is 2.5 hours (1 hr for the S/L and 1.5 for the O/T) and not usually even pay scales as a 20 year members at top pay may cover a 2 year members at base pay where that 1.5 hr rate the 20 yr member earns may actually be 2 times the 2 year members reg rate meaning that leave just cost 3.0x not 2.5x. If you pay the member for not using the time the rate paid becomes 2.0 hours (1 for the hour worked and 1 for the hour paid). Seems like this is actually a win-win scenario but as with everything involving public employees, John Q Public will see it as getting "free money" or a "bonus" and make it a scandal.

We're on our third generation of two year disposables and the last ones are as maintenance free as they can be. They get checked as part of the daily check and monthly get a fresh air bump that the unit tells you it needs. Once in a while they ask for the span gas test, but very infrequently. These units low alarm at 35 ppm period an go to high alarm at 200 ppm. At any sign of CO (35 ppm w/ these) the crew exits with any civilians and calls for an engine co. if they're not on scene for a multi-gas meter check. Interestingly, we call anything over 9 ppm abnormal if we detect it, but on EMS runs, no one would be the wiser until it reached 35. Basically we do anything we can to ensure the level is under 9 ppm before we leave, though 0-3 is really preferred.As I recall these last ones were under $200 each. We have one on each primary EMS jump kit, the ALS out of town bag (mutual aid EMS calls) and one in each first due fire apparatus.

Our city pays us not to use sick leave, three times a year. Any employee who doesn't use any sick leave in the previous 4 months gets 18 hours of pay (not at 1.5x)and those who have used only 1 sick unit (hour or day) get 9 hours pay. In the past our sick leave accrual maxed out at 3168 hours and those hours in excess went into a "sick leave pool" for covering persons who were out longer than they had SL time for. This year, in an effort to help eliminate those hours in the future, we can enroll in retirement health saving plan, that buys out all maxed out sick time and vacation time beyond max allowable carryover and puts that money into an account to draw from after retirement. Though I'd say that while this seems like a benefit to us, it still was only offered to benefit the city somehow by eliminating unfunded hours or clearing them off the books.

My issue has nothing to do with what happens in the firehouse. My dept. has actual leaders and followers, and rules and policies with discipline and consequences. Subsequently, most of our personnel remain completely professional most of the time. But not everything can be as black and white, such is the case with Facebook and other social media websites.
First, it's more to do with petty BS becoming and issue between personnel. The computer/texting/FB do not show emotions well. It's hard to tell when your getting you balls busted or someone's truly slamming you. It's also far easier for people to "say" what they think in a non-confrontational manner, then realize later that it may cause confrontation.
Second, there has been a plethora of media recently about firefighters/EMS personnel posting inappropriate things on FB and Youtube. Such as video of a fatal accident with graphic details, etc. Not only must administrations worry about HIPAA but also what we used to call morale responsibility. just because it's technically "legal" doesn't make it right. Posting pictures from an accident may not violate specific laws, but it violates the publics trust. We cannot afford to lose any more public support in these economic times. Not to mention just doing the right thing and being stand up people.
My third issue is the lack of camaraderie and a sense of "family" within the firehouse. In years passed, we watched TV, played cards, BSed and generally spent time as a group. Now everyone is off in their corner, texting away, talking on the phone or otherwise being a complete individual. This lack of a bond will erode the firehouse until we're just another group of employees. Gone are the days when this was a calling.
And last for now, is the silly thought that everyone must know everything about what everyone is doing. We used to call people who wanted to know all this stuff "busy body's" or "nosy", now it's mainstream to post that you had to double flush. Get over yourself, the people that really want or need to know already had plenty of mediums to keep track of your goings on.
This is just my opinion, you can't have it, it's mine and I don't care if you agree. I also won't be disappointed if you disagree, I'm a big boy now.
/rant

I gotta say I think Facebook is degrading the firehouse and probably the nation in general. Suddenly everyone has to know everyone's business and still even more feed the need by ridiculously posting, tweeting, twitting or whatever they call it, every little thing they do. Now the minute something happens int he firehouse, every firefighter and his wife, girlfriend and their friends are discussing it on the web. It is a very difficult medium to police as sadly some people do need a little policing when it comes to what should be publicized and what shouldn't. I've seen guys nearly ready to throw down over stupid comments their GF's or in one case, mother made. How absolutely childish and embarrassing. Grown men chatting like school girls. I believe that I am one of only two members of my FD that are not on FB. Maybe more to come, as we've seen at least a few relationships end due to FB.
As an information medium, Facebook is fast and easy, but far too many negatives exist. maybe I'm showing my age, but I generally am not so resistant to change when it happens at a manageable rate, but the internet, texting and Droids are developing issues faster than we can figure them out in a reasonable manner.

My issue has nothing to do with what happens in the firehouse. My dept. has actual leaders and followers, and rules and policies with discipline and consequences. Subsequently, most of our personnel remain completely professional most of the time. But not everything can be as black and white, such is the case with Facebook and other social media websites.
First, it's more to do with petty BS becoming and issue between personnel. The computer/texting/FB do not show emotions well. It's hard to tell when your getting you balls busted or someone's truly slamming you. It's also far easier for people to "say" what they think in a non-confrontational manner, then realize later that it may cause confrontation.
Second, there has been a plethora of media recently about firefighters/EMS personnel posting inappropriate things on FB and Youtube. Such as video of a fatal accident with graphic details, etc. Not only must administrations worry about HIPAA but also what we used to call morale responsibility. just because it's technically "legal" doesn't make it right. Posting pictures from an accident may not violate specific laws, but it violates the publics trust. We cannot afford to lose any more public support in these economic times. Not to mention just doing the right thing and being stand up people.
My third issue is the lack of camaraderie and a sense of "family" within the firehouse. In years passed, we watched TV, played cards, BSed and generally spent time as a group. Now everyone is off in their corner, texting away, talking on the phone or otherwise being a complete individual. This lack of a bond will erode the firehouse until we're just another group of employees. Gone are the days when this was a calling.
And last for now, is the silly thought that everyone must know everything about what everyone is doing. We used to call people who wanted to know all this stuff "busy body's" or "nosy", now it's mainstream to post that you had to double flush. Get over yourself, the people that really want or need to know already had plenty of mediums to keep track of your goings on.
This is just my opinion, you can't have it, it's mine and I don't care if you agree. I also won't be disappointed if you disagree, I'm a big boy now.
/rant

I’m not so sure facebook’s just a firehouse problem. There an addictive quality to the instantaneous posting/sharing of information about yourself/others. Society (the media, etc) has become more reliant on instant updates and facebook, twitter, etc. all feed right into that. Look near the bottom of this web page, and there's little buttons to let any one of us share this topic with others through a variety of feeds (twitter, facebook, digg, etc). It's not isolated to this site or fire-related sites. Just about any on-line news source provides these same options.
I teach in a high school and it’s obvious that students are nuts about facebook. I also see students regularly getting upset about what someone else posted, etc. Outside of school, I know a couple in the middle of a divorce and one of their issues is one person’s inability to stay off facebook.
My opinion is that people are more likely to post something on facebook that they would never say face-to-face about (or to) someone. Ironic since it’s called “face”book.

Clearly you fail to understand how EMS in the rural areas often rely on licensed fire responders at all levels to begin care. Having started in a small rural community where the closest mutual aid ambulance was 20 minutes out, I can attest that having members properly equipped to assist patients is not a disservice of any sort. Aside from administering oxygen, bleeding control, assisting with EPI-pens, spinal immobilization, CPR and even defibrillation are often performed by first responders with success. Not to mention being able to assess the situation and ammend the response appropriately.