INIT915

Right now the private sector is down, but when it was up, would you think its ok to deal with that level of "out of balance"?

Very amusing. Were you around when Reagan was president?

That's a pretty bold statement to make in a forum like this with probably 75% of the membership being union employees, and for that I admire your fortitude.
Now, what do you do for a living, I see your affiliation is a volunteer firefighter, are you trying to get on the job somewhere? If in fact you are, I'd like to see what your opinion is after a few months on the job and as a member of the IAFF. What is your basis for making a statement like that? Who else can we bargain against, unfortunately the taxpayers are the ones who pay the salary here. I'd like to see the average private sector employed taxpayer do the job of FD, PD, or EMS for a month, actually better than that, six months. With those months surrounding the holiday season. I'd love to see how they react to working thanksgiving, christmas, new years...in the rain, snow, sleet, or the heat of july. How about being up in the middle of the night to respond to an emergency, or worse than that the ones who don't have the luxury of bunk. Guaranteed, the tune would change! The average, misinformed person crys about how much public employees "get", but what they don't see is the sacrifices we make. I understand that may sound a little corny, but it is the truth! Has Joe Taxpayer ever been blasted out of bed to go do CPR on someone that collapsed, responded to a structure fire or serious MVA, gone to a domestic or shooting? The answer is no, and for that they have no appreciation!
n.
Now for those who think we get a huge bag filled with money every two weeks:
In the municipality where I work, a majority of the city employees do not live within the city. Most were born there, grew up and went to school there, and got hired by the city. They realized when it was time to buy a home, with their salary, they couldn't afford to live within the city that they work. So they took their money and moved to a place much more affordable, with cheaper taxes, and a respectable home for a reasonable price. I'm not positive what the median cost of a home is in westchester, but it's considerably less in the northern counties. It's unfortunate that these employees don't make enough to live comfortably in the city they grew up and work in. If there were no right to collective bargaining or union protection, god only knows what would happen, and eventually it would impact service to the taxpayers. People wouldn't want to take the jobs if they didn't have these benefits because that would mean low pay, horrible (if any) health coverage and probably an unhappy and hostile work environment.
Who would respond if mom or dad were having difficulty breathing?
Who would show up when the next door neighbors are making too much noise?
Who would scrape up the dead skunk in front of your house?
So, I guess shame on us who want a salary that is enough to live on, a safe work environment, and a comfortable retirement after protecting the muncipalities who employed us for 20+ years!
Stepping off the soapbox now

The crime rate in some areas of Westchester is(or was) greater than the areas of NYC I mentioned. And a county dept in Westchester would not have the right stuff if it was properly sized? Since police patrol, the number of stations does not have a major affect on response times.
How does more precincts benifit other than it might save a mile or 2 drive. The costs are stagering and how often does the public go to the stations?
The playland "precinct" is really a substation and I think other than in name is not really a "precinct".
You are correct that depts could merge stations, the question is what is the right number?
Did you know that New Rochelle Police HQ is closer to parts of Larchmont, Town & Village of Mamaroneck, Pelham, Pelham Manor, Mt. Vernon, Eastchester, Bronxville, Tuckahoe and a very small portion of Scarsdale and Yonkers than to parts of New Rochelle? That would indicate that since it covers 100% of New Rochelle, the distance could cover much more (I do not think it would be physically large enogh or so configured to cover all of that area). Now the northern most 50 streets in New Rochelle are actually closer to White Plains PD HQ than to NRPD HQ.
What is the right size coverage area for a police precicnt? I don't know what if any formula is use (I know fire & EMS ones and I would think PD's are normally larger because they patrol vs. respond from the staation).
Based on the 1/2 way point between NRPD & WPPD I worked out a precinct radius of 3.75 miles. Based on that a single police dept in Westchester would need about 12 precincts. Nassau County has 8 (plus some local PDs) and they cover an area that is 25% smaller (433 vs. 287 sq miles). So I figure my quick #'s are not far off.
Lets see that a reduction of about 60% from the current number of stations. Cutting the cost of maintenance, insurance, staffing, replacement, etc. can we reduce our taxes, while improving capabilities, i would think so. Someone with a backround in police deployment will be better suited to do this than I, but with just a few minutes work, I think I have shown it is possible.

Now that the republican senators have used the so-called nuclear option, unless it is overturned in court, once passed by the House and signed it'll become law in Wisconsin. And it'll stay that way unless in the next election cycle, the people vote out the republicans who supported this bill and repeal it.
I think it will happen.
According to polls, the people of Wisconsin strongly oppose certain parts of the bill which they feel are an encroachment on civil rights of workers in the state. Governor Walker has done an admirable job of polarizing his state and for that he'll most likely become an icon for republicans and conservatives for years to come.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepo...117472988.html
While the public workers may be down, they are definitely not out. I suspect it'll become the 1930's again in Wisconsin labor-wise; in some aspects I think it'll be good since many unionists know very little or nothing about unions in general and the sacrifices made back in the day when they fought street battles with management and company hired security hacks.Tthis is a wake up call to not only public employees but also those in the private sector who think they are immune from what took place in Wisconsin. Furthermore, fire and police will not be immune from future attacks on their unions; indeed Ohio, Indiana and New Jersey are contemplating changes in labor regarding the public sector in their respective states.
Make no bones about it, the public and private sector unions in other states are next on the republican's hit list. After all, the Republican Party owes its soul to the US Chamber of Commerce and Tea Party, so hopefully it'll galvanize everyone from both the private and public sectors to band together as brothers and sisters with a common bond to work to vote out the governor and every republican of either house who supported this bill.
Tonight, after it was announced that the republican senate in Wisconsin had passed the bill by 18-1, five of my co-workers, all staunch republicans revealed to us that they are so embarrassed by what their party did in Wisconsin, they plan on leaving the party and registering as independents.
I look forward with extreme enthusiasm to the next two years. I honestly believe that the Republicans have awakened a sleeping bear.

+1

So, I hear what your saying. But I don't really follow your logic.
Your originally premise was PD's should be doing police work and FD's should be doing fire/rescue work? (Feel free to correct me if I am misquoting you.)
So, in theory, criminal arson cases should be handled by the PD. But if the FD arson guys are as good as PD investigators, they should keep the case, right? By that logic, if a city PD ESU is as good as the FD in terms of their rescue work, they they can continue doing the rescue work???
I think it's either one or the other, but you can't have it both ways.

I don't find this comment funny. You have opened up a can of worms and I expect you to apologize to every police officer. This type of "Humor" is unacceptable. If you have a God complex because you have a set of turnout gear and face smoke and flames then keep it to yourself.
I have spent 20 years on "the streets" in a city police department. During that time I have been shot at, had to face near riots and been injured several times dealing with violent and drunk people. I have had to search for bombs and people with guns.. Funny, I can't ever recall the room entry I had to make being determined too dangerous and we will just wait for the guy to come out. When was the last time you had to tell people that their friends (or worse their child) had died?


Still think you are a hero champ, I never did I did my job and waited for the next call.

It is not my intention to demean the fire service, blow my own horn, or to say one department is braver or better than the other, we all have our jobs to do and we all take risks every time we answer the call, but I am replying to one particular comment. We should take pride in our functions whatever we do and not demean the other services.

Let's see judging by your age (21-24) you just paid your taxes and feel you're being screwed. It's not by us, my friend. We pay taxes too. Whatever you do for a living, the Taylor Law is pretty good reading for your lunch hour.

You are in the wrong place to be spouting anti-union rhetoric.
UNION STRONG!

+1

Your assertion was that the PD is trying to perform an FD function and we were merely pointing out that PD performed these services first in many communities thereby refuting your point as it could be argued that the FD's started to perform.
What in the emergency services is based strictly upon need? There are many more duplicative resources especially in Westchester County. Nobody suggested that history and tradition dictate our roles; we merely highlighted a contrarian viewpoint. On what standards should we base these needs? I wish we did more needs assessments to determine what was needed vs. what is popular or more cool.
Having been one of the officers to which you're referring, I will argue that the WCPD ESU could perform most extrications very well regardless of the unit staffing. The tool is really a one-person job anyway and additional resources/support could always be requested. One of the toughest extrications I ever worked, I worked with an EMS supervisor from a commercial EMS and not the FD.
I'll counter your hostage argument with what happens when FD is on a fire and a pin job comes in or vice versa?
I don't think they're competing and the 289 Nep scaffolding job proves that point. PD and FD worked well together.
Yup, that's who I meant.
SWAT may be one function of ESU but ESU generally performs many other services besides SWAT. The ESU or CIU trucks in Westchester County do much more than just SWAT. LAPD SWAT is just that, SWAT.
We've discussed this at length in other threads and I think the consensus was no, they shouldn't all be cross-trained.
What differences are you referring to?
Your initial post was construed by many, myself included, to be rather critical of cops in NY. I, and others, have responded to dispute your assertions and have done so factually and respectfully. The discussion has also morphed from a comparison of police in Texas and New York to who should provide rescue services in Westchester County and it is slanted against existing PD units.
I wanted to give you a negative rep point because I don't think the initial post articulated your position well and when someone has to start it with a disclaimer that you're not being critical it is generally because they are.
If you want to discuss regional differences in law enforcement let's do that but let's not do so while simultaneously insinuating that cops in NY are somehow less than their peers in Texas.
Finally, your last remark seems to be hlghly inflammatory. What exactly do you mean with that remark?

So, I hear what your saying. But I don't really follow your logic.
Your originally premise was PD's should be doing police work and FD's should be doing fire/rescue work? (Feel free to correct me if I am misquoting you.)
So, in theory, criminal arson cases should be handled by the PD. But if the FD arson guys are as good as PD investigators, they should keep the case, right? By that logic, if a city PD ESU is as good as the FD in terms of their rescue work, they they can continue doing the rescue work???
I think it's either one or the other, but you can't have it both ways.

I always enjoy when someone asks why the Police Departments try to take away work from the Fire Departments.
Let's look at NYPD ESU. NYPD ESU has been providing rescue services for the citizens of New York City since the 1930's. The Fire Department wanted nothing to do with rescue work, especially back in the days when the city was burning down, before the strict fire codes that exist today, along with the use of sprinkler systems, improved building materials, fireproofing, fire prevention programs, and everything else that has lead to a decrease in the number of fires. So for decades, the NYPD ESU was the sole provider of emergency rescue services in the City of New York.
It wasn't until the number of fires began to decrease, that the FDNY started getting involved with rescue work. So, should PD be asking why the FD was trying to duplicate a service already being provided by them? Before a lot of Westchester County Fire Departments purchased extrication equipment, extrications on the Westchester County Parkways were handled by the Westchester County Department of Public Safety. Should County PD have asked why the local FD's were trying to duplicate a service on the parkways already provided by them? The Town of Mount Pleasant Police was the sole provider of extrication services within their jurisdiction for years before the local fire departments purchased extrication equipment. Should the Town of Mount Pleasant PD have asked why the local FD's were trying to duplicate a service already being provided by the local PD?
Personally, I have no problem with FD's handling rescue work, and always look forward to working together at a scene rather then battle eachother. The one benefit I see to having both Firefighters and Police Officers assigned to Emergency Service Units taking part in a rescue, is that it gives you a larger talent pool to pull from in the event of a significant incident. There are some ESU officers who are talented rescue specialists, just as there are Firefighters assigned to Rescue Companies who possess the same talents and level of expertise. Being able to draw from the experiences and talents of both individuals at an incident is beneficial to the overall success of the operation.

There are differences in many things as you move from region to region in the United States; income, accents, history, culture, politics, demographics, etc., etc., etc. The question you raise is not merely applicable to law enforcement. There are vast differences between New York and Texas. I don't think the differences are as great as you believe nor do I think you properly articulated your argument without disparaging cops in NY and the northeast.
I think there is something to be said for the anti-police, anti-government sentiment in the northeast being a contributing factor to your supposition. I think as the country tried to become more politically correct and public service changed from being a calling to a secure job with benefits, we lost some of the service focus that contributed to law enforcement being what it used to be. There are still many hard-chargers in civil service but there are now an equal number of deadbeats just studying for promotional exams with no concept of the job and/or using the stability to advance their education for their next job.
You're flat out wrong about some things. Cops in ESU aren't trying to be firefighters and who says that rescue is a fire function? ESU predates many of the FD rescue resources in Westchester County. Yonkers E-rigs of the 80's were the first paramedics in the city and had the only extrication equipment for many years. The County PD ran an ESU that provided extrication services all over the county before a lot of FD's got their own hurst tools. ESU is not the same as SWAT either. The LAPD runs SWAT but they don't do most of the things that ESU cops do - it is an apples and oranges comparison. In Jersey City, extrications are performed by EMS not fire or PD. White Plains has a police / fire special operations command that works collaboratively.
Duplicating resources? Are you kidding me? You really think that ESU in the couple of cities that have them in Westchester are the duplicative resources and squandering the funding that exists for emergency services. Hmmm, the 59 fire departments, 43 police departments, 60 or so school districts are definitely not duplicative. Who says that EMS is a fire function? PD is an first responder and in many places they are the only BLSFR that responds. We've already covered in other threads that BLSFR is not strictly limited to PD or FD exclusively.
OK, who decides what the core responsibilities are? What do you do when an agency can't/won't/doesn't fulfill it's core responsibilites? Competition exists on many levels in public service and it can be healthy. There are plenty of examples of intra-disciplinary rivalries that are unhealthy; you're broad sweeping generalizations about inter-disciplinary relationships and responsibilities are way off base.
Pity there isn't a negative rep button anymore. Comparing patrol cops in Texas with ESU cops in NY or asserting that certain functions don't have cross-over between disciplines is way off base. There should be collaboration and less division and that's not strictly a PD/FD thing.

Ive read this post many times and I still fail to see the reason for posting it but it most certainly requires a response.
From what I know of you, you have no background in Law Enforcement so your ideas of how cops should feel about being cops and what they should do on duty may be how it is in a perfect world but in reality thats not how it works. This would be like me who knows nothing of fire fighting making critical observations about the fire service and putting all over the post " No offense guys" and " this is not a knock to firefighters".
As far as I've seen, you're the only member on here from texas so you are the only one who could answer your own question of " why are police officers down here so different ?"
I've been a cop for 12 years and I go balls to the wall every day I go into work as do most cops I know. Would it be nice to follow up with every crime victim we deal with ? Yes but we don't have the time or the manpower to do that stuff. How do you know that cops up here don't know their post as well as cops in Texas ?
Cops are in a unique situation to be cross trained in rescue, where as FD's can't be trained in law enforcement specific things... thats just the way it is.
You ask why is there competition ? There always has and always will be competiton in the emergency services and it's healthy to a degree.
You ask why are there not more hudson river patrols ? There are in the summer but not so much in the winter but what does one thing have to do with the other ?
The bottom line is that expanding the scope of your working capabilities means more job security and possibly more state and federal funding.
The biggest difference between cops up here and cops in texas is that maybe cops in texas enjoy a lot more community support than cops in the north east get.

Date: 03-07-11
Time: 1644hrs
Location: 1037 Rt. 17 - "The Corner Deli" c/s Orange Tpke.
Frequency: OC911
Units Operating: Tuxedo, Monroe, Sloatsburg (Rockland), Greenwood Lake, 36-16 (Coordinator), 36-103 (FI), 36-105 (FI)
Weather Conditions: Sunny
Description Of Incident: Structure Fire
Reporters:
Writer: BFD1054
1644hrs-Tuxedo/Mobile-1 sounding the all-call for Tuxedo FD to respond to the above location for the reported structure fire, visible flames and smoke from the building.
1645hrs-Orange 911 advising they are receiving multiple calls of an abandoned building fully imvolved at that location.
1649hrs-Orange 911 alering Monroe; (1) Engine requested to the scene. Sloatsburg (Rockland Co.) also requested with (1) Engine to the scene.
1650hrs-Orange 911 alerting Greenwood Lake; (1) Engine requested to re-locate to Tuxedo Compnay 2 for coverage.
1658hrs-Tuxedo/Mobile-1 re-sounding the All-Call for all available manpower to the scene of the working structure fire.
1701hrs-Orange 911 alerting Monroe for additional mutual-aid; (1) Tanker requested to the scene in Tuxedo.
1709hrs-Tuxedo Command requesting Rockland County Dept. 15 (Sloatsburg) to stand-by in their own quarters and cover all calls in Tuxedo. Command also requesting Woodbury FD to handle any calls on the NYS Thruway for Tuxedo.
1721hrs-Fire Investigator requested to the scene.
1757hrs-As per Command, fire is under control.

This is shameful, but it's what I have come to expect from today's GOP. Politicians like the wimpy, cry baby Rep. John Boehner who have no respect for Cops, Firefighters or the military. He's never placed himself in harm's way to protect his country or another human being. He stood with the GOP when they held The Zadroga 9/11 Health and Compensation Bill hostage while demanding that Democrats join the GOP in extending tax breaks for the wealthiest 2% of Americans. After getting the tax breaks for their wealthy corporate campaign supporters, they subsequently cut the funding for Zadroga in half before passing it. BTW, Rep. John Boehner didn't even stay in Washington to vote on the final bill which occurred on December 22nd, 2010. He along with many other GOP rich kids had already gone home to celebrate Christmas with their families. I wonder what it feels like to walk away from your responsibilities as an elected public servant whenever you feel like it, leaving your work undone. As a Firefighter, I wouldn't know that feeling, nor did I ever have the desire to abandon my responsibilities for my personal enjoyment ... Rep. John Boehner is a disgrace.
Thank you for your service to our country Mr. Buckles ... May you rest in peace ...

Well said. How people made the jump from conducting a legitimate criminal investigation to ethnic cleansing and discrimination is beyond me.
Consider this analogy: When a topic takes a technical turn in firefighting, I personally tend to sit back and follow the discussion, because I admittedly know very little of the specifics of firefighting. Yet, here, commentators citing constitutional provisions and other violations of the law are not basing their posts in any semblance of law or facts and it does quite a disservice to law enforcement in general as well as members of this board who may accept their comments as "facts."

The News12 Chopper stream is coming across pretty well.
http://www.news12.com/articleDetail.jsp?articleId=275478&position=1&news_type=news

Well said. How people made the jump from conducting a legitimate criminal investigation to ethnic cleansing and discrimination is beyond me.
Consider this analogy: When a topic takes a technical turn in firefighting, I personally tend to sit back and follow the discussion, because I admittedly know very little of the specifics of firefighting. Yet, here, commentators citing constitutional provisions and other violations of the law are not basing their posts in any semblance of law or facts and it does quite a disservice to law enforcement in general as well as members of this board who may accept their comments as "facts."

C'mon, guys. Let's not get up in each others faces There's no winners in a online debate, only harbored hostile feelings Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and a rebuttal.As far as quoting laws, there's a rule about quoting laws on this forum:
OK, now back to the topic at hand....
Private investigators follow people all day for a living-cheating spouses, etc.
This woman should have been charged immediately with something, that way the terms of her bail could have been the revocation of her passport. Hindsight is 20/20, but the DA and Judge are the ones who ultimately failed to take prompt legal action. Look at the timelines I posted at the links above....one thing is clear, the D.A. repeatedly dropped the ball. Even if they got her on a minor charge just to hold her up a little.
Also to note, Dallas is at least an 8 hour drive from Houston. And to get trhough the airport also takes a bit of time. And who funded this last minute flight, which cost a fortune? The brother, who set up the "Foundation" that accepted monetary donations, but was set up like a business with him getting the profits? Who drove her to Dallas? There are now a lot more people who should be charged as accomplices.
I doubt she would be able to survive in prison though. These parents should get closure one way or another, although there lives are destroyed.

I'm not sure where you are going with the second class citizen thing ? This woman is an American citizen as she was born in Texas. Now you are talking about locking people up in camps ??? Did I miss something ??? I don't give a s*** if this woman was from the US, canada, iran, tahiti or any other speck of sand in the world, her actions led to the death of 4 children... THAT FACT AND ONLY THAT FACT MATTER HERE

From a criminal investigation perspective, this is fairly inexcusable. Anyone facing charges of this nature who has ties to a foreign nation wouldn't ordinarily be left so "free" top do so.

From a criminal investigation perspective, this is fairly inexcusable. Anyone facing charges of this nature who has ties to a foreign nation wouldn't ordinarily be left so "free" top do so.