SRS131EMTFF

Captain, we all grieve for the loss of the brothers fallen in CT, VA and elsewhere but we can not forget that life goes on. We must constantly learn from the events, tragedy and lessons of actions both past and present. We can not stop learning just because it hurts too much, or it is too soon.
I choose not to "chill on this thread" because we too must learn from this video as if it were a NIOSH report. We must take the lessons learned and apply them to actions both present and future.
The individuals in the video this thread is based on risked their safety to extinguish what, a tractor-trailer truck cab with limited life-safety except those individuals who choose to unnecessarily risk their own safety. That sir contains a lesson if you ask me. That lesson is risk a little to save a little, risk a lot to save a lot. Those pictured in this video risked a lot to save something that was going to the dump the second that fire started.
I am sorry if this offended you, but we can not let the lessons of this video escape us.

Great Video. Nice Find. Hats off as always to our dispatchers.

Yes, while I agree with what you say, has that capability been eliminated and not diminished? I agree that if these boats with all of the life rafts are the only thing that keep the airports in compliance with Part 139 then the airports are no longer in compliance. However, what if they are not the only thing?
What I am saying is how do we know that capability has not been shifted to say an agreement with surrounding marine vessels that they will assist during a water rescue situation similar to the impromptu situation that occurred in the Hudson or something similar.
All I am saying is that we do not know if they are complying with the regulation in some other way than some magic bullet boat.

PPV is another tool in the toolbox for the IC. There are many advantages of using this tactic but you must know WHEN and you must know How to implement PPV. Departments in Europe and in other parts of the United States use PPV in the attack, or precontrol stage of the fire. Most of their SOPs are different from those we use in the northeast, their construction methods are different, and some are currently reviewing these procedures because of incidents similar to the one on the tape.
The use of PPV in a precontrol stage should be extremely limited. As the video shows, if the fire is not completely knocked down, the introduction of air will simply accelerate the combustion process. The FDNY program limits the use of PPV in a precontrol stage exclusively to Fireproof Multiple Dwellings. The fans are set remote from the fire floor and the only objective they have is pressurization of the attack stairwell, replicating the automatic systems found in High Rise Commercial buildings. These units create a static pressure with little air flow. The intent is to gain control of the attack stair, create a clear operating platform, provide egress for occupants, and stop the flow of heat and gasses on the fire floor. The closest an FDNY fan will get to the fire floor is three floors below, and it is usually lower. The department in the video SOPs obviously put the fans a lot closer. As EFDCapt said, standard ventilation practices should not be ignored. We should never forsake the Bread and Butter operations for some fancy new gizmo.
On the other hand, once the fire is under control, the use of PPV can be extremely advantageous. The old fashion way of taking a window and letting it lift should go the way of the back step. The toxins and carcinogens in today’s smoke are so nasty, we should work in clean environments as often as possible. We take bad enough feeds as it is. Taking unnecessary ones don’t make sense. The advantages of PPV over negative pressure are several. When using PPV, firefighters do not have to be in the contaminated area. Because you are not pulling smoke through the fan, the blades stay cleaner and the efficiency of the fan remains high. Also, you can use PPV from outside the building, thereby allowing you to use a gasoline powered fan which will move significantly more cubic feet per minute, increasing the overall efficiency of the operation. It is essential that the fire is under control prior to using the fans; the exhaust opening is large enough to vent the structure; and the wind speed and direction is evaluated and addressed.
If you asked me ten years ago if I thought that PPV was worth looking into I would have laughed and said “Not in my lifetime” without thinking. The reality is however, over the years the dynamics of fire has changed, the methods of construction have changed, the toxicity of smoke has changed. If we in the fire service are unwilling to change, we are destined for failure. This is not to say that every innovation that comes along should be embraced, but it should be investigated, analyzed, evaluated, and if applicable, implemented in a way that your department gets the best advantage from the tool or procedure, and your members operate in a safer atmosphere. After all, that should be our ultimate goal, that everyone goes home. I apologize for the rambling but it is late. Just my opinion.

Nice post, if all the info you gave is "factual" as you've claimed, then you've added quite a bit of info about PAPD Airborne and ESU. Problem I have with it (even though I'm giving you a rep point anyway), is that nobody here was expressing support for anybody losing their jobs. If you follow this forum, then you know what cops and firefighters have been faced with regarding layoffs in Westchester County.(edit) I think I can speak for most members in saying we not in favor of people being layed off.(/edit)
You alluded to the difficulty in getting the proper authorization for PAPD Airborne support. Sounds like a ridiculous system to need up to four bosses to sign off on a flight. That's the PAPD hurting it's own unit, not anybody else.
A "contractual" agreement that required at least one PAPD officer to be on board for a flight? Bro, it's a POLICE chopper. What are non-police personel even doing in the cockpit? PAPD Airborne sounds like more of a service that didn't exist for anything or anyone outside of the PA, the more you describe it. And a daytime service only at that?
The comment I saw about PAPD ESU jumping calls came from a retired FDNY member. If he saw it happening in his career and called them on it in this thread, as far as I'm concerned that is FACT, and all I need to know that it does happen.
Sounds to me after your post, that the PAPD needs to get it's act together. First reason and this should be reason enough; PAPD protect the major airports in NY/NJ and as you claim a 25 mile ring around the Statue of Liberty. All of these assets and they are eliminating their airborne unit?
Maybe because they've been doing it wrong for so many years, and shuttling PA personel around like they were a bunch of Wall Street executives, instead of providing an emergency service, which would be the priority reason for a PD to own a chopper in the first place.
If they would have developed their air program to provide that local support, easier and more consistantly, they would have proved their worth to the emergency services community, and they probably wouldn't be on the chopping block, like a too expensive shuttle system for employees.
Think about it. We had USAir into the Hudson, we've had jumpers off the bridges, etc. We see the NYPD choppers dropping SCUBA divers into the water in a matter of minutes. We see the Westchester unit assisting with searches all over the county.
The PA chopper could have been utilized as a regular emergency air service for the whole area; yet from the chopper choice on down, it appears that is not what the PA powers to be intended.
Just my opinion.

Why is it sad that failure to consent dosent mean a conviction? have you read the constitution recently? You have the right against self incrimination and against unlawful search and seizure. I could not be more against DWI but we still have to ensure our rights are not infringed upon. So unless a judge issues a warrant for the blood or urine analysis then its not lawful to require a suspect to surrender to the tests. The loss of your drivers license for one year is completely fine because driving is a privilege not a right.

In squad we trust I think you should get off the computer and go down to the fd's you want too join. You said you emailed this one and emailed that one. If you can't take some time out of your day to go down and see them in person then your not going to have time too be a member. Find out when their work detail or training nights are and talk too the members about joining. It shows that your willing to give up your time. Hint there's alot more then going too calls to being a firefighter. So your got to give up alot of your time.
Sfrd If your really interested in being a firefigher whether paid or volly. You need to change your attitude!! Your profile says your 14-17 years old so i'm going to call you kid because that is what you are. So kid thinking you know more then most people on the job is a bad attitude and going to get you nowhere real quick. In a volly dept. you will be outcasted and not like it there and paid they will eat you up an spit you out. So start over and go in like your some kid looking at being a firefigher and stand there keeping your mouth shut and your ears open. Good luck to both of you! and remember never stop training and never stop learning.

If you tell the PD no, and don't do the blood draw at their request, would that be considered "obstruction", opening up a set of problems for the EMS provider/agency?

Where to start. I am an auto appraiser for my real job, and get to see lots of bags deployed.
The cover on the wheel now is a bad idea. When it first came out you only had steering wheel bag.
With all the other bags in cars now the cover would give the rescuer a false sence of security and may lead them to over look undeployed bags in other tareas of the car.
5-10-20 is the rule to teach and pass along. The most critical skill that MUST be passed along is to EXPOSE EVERYTHING before you cut.. I witnessed an Audi that was cut by a nearby FD that they did not do this and in fact cut thru the tube that expells the propellant from a side airbag canister in a C post. They have no clue at how close they came to cutting into the caniser (1-2 inches on both sides!!!)
Air bags and their parts are everywhere
-steering wheels
- dash
-side of front and rear seats
-Head rails
-A post and in the hinge post
- Dash Knee air bags on alot of cars not just the old Kia Sportage anymore.
-There are also airbags now on the big Motorcycles too
- Ford is also toying with airbags to prevent pedestrian inj on the exterior as well.
Other things to keep in mind are pre-tensoners for the seatbelts, and auto deploying roll over protection as well on convertables. Any we have not gotten to th eHybeds or electrics yet.
Extrication has become increasingly complex and dangerous for the rescuer IF you do not keep up on new technologies you are going to get hurt. And trainning on 15 year old cars is NOT real world trainning anymore.
Contact your local car dealer to see what is new in safey
Aaron Hodge

I love it! Yet again, members with only a passing knowledge of the events, and in this case based completely on misinformation, hijack the thread, and, as we now see, cannot even gather the basic confirmation before posting. Thanks fireguy43 for the correct version of events. I dare to say, I recently recall a roughly 24-hour period on this site where I literally only saw a handful of new topics or comments, and I and others, believe its antics like this. Feel free to post anything you want. Want a topic on manpower, start one! But to hijack threads, and in retrospect, using unreliable data, is really getting old.

http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/news/fullstory/newsid/110192

I thought we were on the same side here...isnt the public what matters? In one breath some of you scream about doing the right thing for the public, and manpower and response. And in the next breath you go out of your way to knock everything Volunteer of FASNY related. In reality this bill wont be much but if it helps get 1 or 2 more people out to a major incident isnt it worth it? Isnt it worth it to the Chief in charge or IC at the "big one?", not to mention the rest of the firefighters on scene? Whatever happened to supporting the idea of goodwill and helping your community?? Most of the Dept.s this bill is aimed for probably get 1 or 2 "big ones" a year if that. We are not talking about workers leaving for every alarm every day.
I doubt it will have any "economic impact" your pulling at straws with that one, there are way to many other things to worry about as an employer then if an employee misses 2 days work during the year at a fire. I doubt his company is going to suffer a "reliabilty hit" because his worker was fighting a major fire, in fact some poeple might look upon that as an admirable thing to do for the emploee and employer. I bet the company could get some good press out of doing something like that, run some ads with a picture of the employee and the fire "We care about our communities"
Again JMO

What the??? Arent we all "Brothers" (yeah right)... if this bill helps one Brother Volunteer Firefighter save his job, it's worth it. Case closed. JMO

The only people this law is likely to make a difference for are those who would likely seek to abuse the supposed protections it grants. It provides a cause for entitlement and defiance. If I'm working a job all night and can't make it to work I can always call in sick. Maybe it's a luxury in my profession, but I'd be surprised if most people didn't have sick time. And if I couldn't, I'd have to make it through the day somehow.
I think this law will only come up when someone is using it to essentially tell their employer to suck it, that they're going to do what they want whether it works for the company or not.
If attendance and promptness are so important that I needed to use this law to justify being late or absent then volunteering and my career choices are not really compatible and maybe some aspect of my choices needs to change. The employer shouldn't have to make any concessions for an employee because of the employee's choices, however I've found that when you're an asset to whoever you work for they are always, without exception, willing to work with you to accommodate your needs in some way.

Question; if your store or business is on fire and your protected by volunteers, would you rather they go off to work or show up to your store/business and put out the fire?

Great concept but CPP (its no longer CRP) as the name changed to "Cortlandt Peekskill Paramedics"is supplemented by the Peekskill FD FF/Paramedics utilizing CPP equipment and under their CON. There is no way to faciliate having a volunteer EMT ride with the FD medics whom based on the rotation in place cover the eastern side of Peekskill and Mohegan every other week first due as we also have fire responsibilities.
I applaud Mohegan VAC for finally doing this...to be blunt..its overdue...long overdue. The only thing I can say and I'm using honesty so save the boo hoos for someone else is that I didn't have many problems weekdays as they had crews. Its at evening, nights and weekends that tend to be the huge problems. Not every day as there are a few reliable duty crews who I enjoy working with...but its almost like clockwork at some. I also just hope that because its staffed they don't continue to cut down on BLSFR from the FD. Its a huge district and the respond by closest station and stopping the clock is important to get someone there and also having that extra set of hands by experienced EMT's who have been doing this for years is a great asset to me and my colleagues.

Wow, alleging money laundering and grand larceny? Pretty serious charges. Any offer of proof???

I'm sorry, but I am a firm believer in shared costs, meaning that everyone should pay at least something toward health insurance. If it costs me an extra $50 a check to subsidize my health insurance, and in the long run, I can alleviate some of the strain on my department and the taxpayers who support it, thereby potentially saving a job or jobs, then I am all for it. The private sector does it, and in this day and age, maybe the public sector should, too. We may have to foot some upfront costs, but in the long run, it might just be a better situation in the end.

Actually, with the exception of the SOR vehicle's existence YES, the rest are all 'factpinions'. The existence of a relationship with the city/FD/PD is NOT a guarantee of future performance and in fact can be a negative because exceptions to agreements/rules/contracts are now pretty much expected or allowed (thats an opinion on my part). We can go back an forth with things that Company A has or does versus Company B has or does but at the end of the day, guess what? EMS IS A BUSINESS. There are no allegiances amongst companies, amongst municipalities, amongst workers. If Empress wants to make sure that they keep a contract, they have to make sure that they provide a service that is SO good that no one else can 1.) offer or 2.) actually provide. Does Empress do that for Yonkers, maybe, guess we'll find that out over the next few months. Did Empress do that for Mount Vernon? I'm gonna have to say no since Mount Vernon walked away from a 15 year relationship. As for the ins and outs of how or why that happened? I don't know the behind the door dealings but I do know that this is what can happen in ANY commercial provider agreement, any company is one handshake away from a 'contract', that's the nature of commercial EMS. To expect anything otherwise is laughable.

Too bad those of us in unions, (PD, PD, Teachers) don't work hard enough in your eyes. Thanks for your insightful comments and pointing out how lazy we are.

I hope we have more rigs next year as well,plan on the same weekend May 22nd 2011 , It was a busy day I was happy to see the field so full of teams as well as spectators. You all helped us raise money for the fund, I hope everyone had a good a time as we did.
Jimmy would have loved being in the middle of it all, but he actually was, if it was not for him we would not be doing this.
Thanks everyone see you next year,
Be safe
Jim Arena

"Seems like there is always some kind of internal drama with Tarrytown FD over the years, either with personel, stations, equipment, gaming machines, training tower, parades etc"
Listen as someone who is supposed to be running an above board posting site do not call out departments past issues like that. Everyday that you turn on a TV news some departments cop or firefighter did something wrong whether it be on the job or off duty. Please do not make me start a list and you off all people should know that. All departments FIRE PD OR EMS PAID OR VONUNTEER have skeletons. Do not dare use this site to call out another's past
"

Nope, just trying to figure if its the biggest, longest, most expensive most lights or one that actually was designed to fight a fire.
After reading the rules, thats not one of the requirements.
The rules are very interesting. NFPA and OSHA standards are easier and simpler. A lot of work went into these. Lets look at a few:
"Judging will not be performed within fifty (50) feet of any corner, at any sharp bend, at any steep grade, or at any encumbrance in the Line of March, except by those judging Apparatus. No judging will occur while a unit is stopped, stopping or starting."
So lets throw out safety and most dept. SOP's. Amazing that no judges have been run over.
"Talking, Waving, Laughing, Chewing Gum, Sobriety, Smoking. Ten (10) demerits each."
Yep, you never see these things at a parade.
"10- Haircuts and beards shall be neat and well kept. If the hair is not neat trimmed or is disheveled it is subject to five (5) demerits. There is no rule on hair length. The rule refers to appearance."
Beards are ok in the fire service?
"1 - All apparatus and vehicles must drive to rear of last group. Maximum spacing is twenty (20) feet from last group and twenty (20) feet between each apparatus and vehicle. Two (2) demerits each."
20 feet, sounds like tailgating to me, what does traffic law say on this one?
"16- Missing equipment will be subject to three (3) demerits each."
How do they know whats missing?
"17- Refreshments or non-firematic equipment are not permitted on apparatus or vehicles. Five (5)demerits."
So who carries the beer? THis also explains the MCI's that have occured at a few parades when everyone drops from the heat.
"18- Current dated inspection tags must be on extinguisher. Two (2) demerits each."
I guess these depts don't actually use extingushers to fight fires with
"21- Additional demerits for Pumpers: Covered hose beds Ten (10) demerits (Full covers need not be completely removed, but must allow hose bed viewing for inspection.)"
In violation of NFPA Standards.
And the one the explains why depts in Westchester can never consolidate: "Two or more Departments marching together as One Unit are disqualified."

I didn't read the IA for this thread but once I did I had to giggle as it is one of my co workers and one who has 12 years as a Paramedic with experience not just in the high volume system as a FF/Paramedic but Yonkers as well. But with that said another point to keep in mind is the location where this injury occurred is a major NYS Guard facility where numerous law enforcment agencies also train. So even if it were a minor injury a couple of things could have happened...1 the BLS agency didn't have a full crew and the medic covered it for them. Or it was a solider or LEO and he as I also would have stayed to assist a colleague through the event. Other then that..I think nuff said.

That is if you believe in the New Testament; considering Utah is mostly a Mormon state, your idea of "well its against god" does not fly with me and certainly does not fly with them.
EMSer, please quote from the constitution where it says to follow the law of god first and then follow the constitution because last time I checked, there was a separation between the two, I think they call it the first amendment. Second, please show me where anyone says anything along the lines of "one cannot be a true conservative unless they understand this proper order and how this order has been so skewed over time".