FirNaTine

Hey I know Career Chiefs that have credentials from all over the Country and are still incompetent, They're lucky they can handle a mattress job!

Those guys can put their sticks into some tight places!

Great job and thanks for taking the photos!! Out of curiosity I was told you should try to be 10' away from wires with aerials? Obviously there is inherent risk when dealing with wires. *Not trying to make anything of this by any means just strictly a curiosity/learning question.*

Why are you Monday morning quarterbacking the decision the brothers made ? It was a serverly stressful situation when your brother gets injuried that serverly. They made that decision based on what they thought was best. Nypd escorted the bus to Bellevue where he got the best care you can for this type of injury.
If you are so concerned with the decision they made and are questioning it, why don't you call over there and tell them how they made the wrong decision and tell them how you would of done it
Hope for a speedy recovery for this brother

I used to visit my dad when he was assigned. there. I remember that if you walked in the apparatus door, to the left (the west side of the building) was the day room. On the right side (east) you went up a few steps and there was the company office. I used to play on that Ward LaFrance shown in the black and white photo above.

Absolutely! How about adding to this just knowing your 1st due territory as in streets, standpiped bldgs., dead end hydrants, obscured hydrants, no hydrants at all, etc.etc.. Another thing too is many places seem to assign positions on apparatus by "Seniority" and not "Ability!"

Absolutely! How about adding to this just knowing your 1st due territory as in streets, standpiped bldgs., dead end hydrants, obscured hydrants, no hydrants at all, etc.etc.. Another thing too is many places seem to assign positions on apparatus by "Seniority" and not "Ability!"

Absolutely! How about adding to this just knowing your 1st due territory as in streets, standpiped bldgs., dead end hydrants, obscured hydrants, no hydrants at all, etc.etc.. Another thing too is many places seem to assign positions on apparatus by "Seniority" and not "Ability!"

Absolutely! How about adding to this just knowing your 1st due territory as in streets, standpiped bldgs., dead end hydrants, obscured hydrants, no hydrants at all, etc.etc.. Another thing too is many places seem to assign positions on apparatus by "Seniority" and not "Ability!"

There is more to being a good MPO also. But being able to get water is a good start. Main size, identifying a un primed pump etc.......Hands out to sides palms up and a shoulder shrug is one of the scariest things to see at a fire

And let's not forget to actually be able to quickly charge the line. You could have the manpower and speed to properly select and position the proper size hoseline but if your MPO is clueless and incapable of doing his Job, then it's all for naut!

And let's not forget to actually be able to quickly charge the line. You could have the manpower and speed to properly select and position the proper size hoseline but if your MPO is clueless and incapable of doing his Job, then it's all for naut!

I agree that we must constantly look at ourselves to see what is going wrong...or maybe it's better put to say, look at what we can do better. I think that is the point of Mr. Rhodes' blog. I happen to agree with him that in some cases we are emphasizing the bail out/self rescue aspects of our job over honing and perfecting the most basic of fireground evolutions....stretching the line. No matter what every working fire gets a line stretched and it is the first line that makes or breaks the fire. Fact is, more lives are saved, including more FFs lives, by proper and timely hose selection and placement than by any other means, so shouldn't the skills necessary to get the right amount of the right hose to the right place be practiced accordingly? I believe they should and I also believe that this is not always the case.
Now that's not to say self survival training isn't important, God knows it is and it should be practiced regularly...there are a good number of FFs walking around today that prove that...but that training should be balanced with constant training to ensure that every aspect of the most basic and necessary evolution that we do at every fire is done well at every fire. I think it's a safe to say that some, maybe many, FDs have let the basic skills of hose work slip because of the fact that they are basic skills and it's assumed everyone is well versed at performing them. The truth is that's not always the case and I would bet my last dollar that every FD has had cases that prove that point (i.e. short stretches, wrong sized line, line in the wrong place, not enough manpower dedicated to placing the line...I think you get the idea).
Maybe instead relying on standards, or spending hour after hour learning how to "save ourselves" we could put some of that time to better use learning how to not get ourselves in a position to need those techniques in the first place. And the most basic and simplest way to do that (and save the most lives) is to be masters of hose work.
As Mr. Fredericks so eloquently put it "If you put the fire out there's no reason to jump out of windows."

I know how I would do it, especially if you have pre connected cross lay lines. Keep the simple tricks coming. You have no idea how many times I have had to call for more pressure, not once have I ever had to ask for a decrease, that is what the shut off is for.

Open it up to Career guys too. Id love to see some of the answers! LOL!

And a lot simpler to figure out at 3am when the place is wripping. Take the NASA formula above and toss it! WTF!

First, what is the GPM ? .... I'll go with 150 GPM = 160 PSI
I use the 1.75 rule of thumb method:
Thumb =1 for 100 gpm
Pointer = 2 for 125 gpm
Middle = 3 for 150 gpm
Ring = 4 for 175 gpm
Pinkey =5 for 200 gpm
Multiply the number of the finger by 10 that is the friction loss for 100'
Hence , 150 gpm = Middle finger 3 x 10 = 30 per 100' x 2 (200/100) = 60 + 100 for nozzle pressure. = 160 psi

I always wonder if we really took a look at FF injuries and LODs how many of them could have been prevented by changing our strategy/tactics or just following the basics. Too many times it seems like everyone is ready to cast blame on others and finger point but in reality it's ourselves I believe and our so called "Brother" ffs who are to blame because many of us have become too complacent and lazy and just don't give a rats ass about our Profession and expanding our knowledge of it. God forbid one does too cause then you'll be labeled a "Geeper" or "Buff" and God knows we can't have that!!!

I always wonder if we really took a look at FF injuries and LODs how many of them could have been prevented by changing our strategy/tactics or just following the basics. Too many times it seems like everyone is ready to cast blame on others and finger point but in reality it's ourselves I believe and our so called "Brother" ffs who are to blame because many of us have become too complacent and lazy and just don't give a rats ass about our Profession and expanding our knowledge of it. God forbid one does too cause then you'll be labeled a "Geeper" or "Buff" and God knows we can't have that!!!

Good short and to the point article that reinforces the words of the late Andrew Fredericks:
"If you put the fire out there's no reason to jump out of windows"
http://community.fireengineering.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1219672:BlogPost:596767

What should be taught to everyone regardless of experience is the need for something to be done. Not meaning do something if you are just standing there, but make sure everything that should be done is being completed.
Adequate line like this story exposed.
Adequate egress.
Adequate manpower for relief.
Adequate monitoring of members levels of exhaustion.
I still to this day can not figure out some things that are different between fighting a fire at work and fighting one for free (volunteer). Always a difference even though the only thing you need is water. Ill ask a main pet peeve in another thread now that I think about it.

The Squad concept for the most part is nothing but a "Dog and Pony" Show. Looks good on paper but that's about it with the exception of a couple of Career Depts. that can actually perform the Duties within a reasonable amount of time.

Great pics. OMG, a parade? How unprofessional.

A couple of thoughts here.
I really have no knowledge of how the HFD operates aside from what I read here. What it sounds like is the Chief turns out first since he doesn't dress and gets there first and does the 360 as the other apparatus is entering the block. So he or she isn't really a viable option for running in and making a grab. In the FDNY everywhere I have ever been the Chief lets the companies out and closes the doors for everyone and then trails all the apparatus. In fact if we are responding and come upon the chief 9 times out of 10 they pull over and let us by.
As for the conundrum of what to do when faced with a known life hazard upon arrival with limited staffing I see no hard fast answer. Our procedures are quite clear that an engine should not abandon stretching a line to address life hazards aside from extreme conditions. Now this was one of those things I used to fight in my mind when I would first read it but along with many others I now come to realize the genius of those sharp lads who wrote this stuff back in the day. The reality is if there's a fire bad enough to trap someone the situation is probably getting worse by the second. If we forgo stretching the line the fire will get bigger. That's not to say that in some situations you may need to go for the life hazard but it's one of the ultimate judgement calls. Putting out the fire makes lots of problems go away while letting the fire grow makes new problems by the second.
As for the 360 if you're not doing it you should start right now. Do it on everything to make it second nature (CO, Gas, AFAs). The amount of information that you can gain with it is immense. In that private dwelling fire a major part of it is ruling out the basement fire which is critical and not always apparent-think balloon frame. If you look back at a lot of LODD country wide over the last 20 years you see plenty of incidents where something that could easily have been determined by the 360 killed members.

What no wetdown? You mean no bringing half million/million dollar apparatus from all around the county away from their jurisdiction just to spray each other with hoses and the siren pedals pegged for 10 mins? shucks.....