Bnechis

Can anyone recollect (and some may have to go back some 40 to 50 years in Westchester County) if a patient had to be transported to an Emergency Room in Westchester County either inside of a Rescue Rig or on a backboard on top of the hose bed on a Pumper Truck, because a BLS or ALS Ambulance Rig (and going back to the 'Old Days" just a plain old Ambulance) was not available for transport? (Back in 1963, I had to be transported inside of the Old Yonkers Rescue 1 Mack Rig due to an Bycycle/Auto Accident, to Lawrence Hospital, because all of the Yonkers City/Hospital Ambulances and the Old Lawrence Hospital Ambulances were all unavailable, due to being tied up on other runs

Does anyone have any recollection of other incidents that required transportation to an ER on a Fire Rig?

Its happened on a number of occasions. And in police cars even more often

ISO might not care about number of calls but the problem is that the taxpayers do. Whether that is right or wrong of them to care they do care. And if taxpayers think that the career firefighters are going to " sit around and do nothing " they will vote the budget down

They don't know about training, drills, inspections, preplanning and everything else a FF does.

Agreed and that is why it is critical to educate the public, that your ISO rating determines how much money your fire insurance will cost.

A few years ago we determined that if we gave 100%of the dept budget back to the tax payers and got rid of the FD, their insurance would go up at least 3x more than was returned to them.

According to their website Goshen averages 725 calls a year, or 1.9 calls a day. How much paid staff are would be able to be justified with that call volume

Its not based on call volume. Its based on can they cover the calls period. And ISO does not look at the number of calls, just the average number of responders on a response. And the count 1 career guy as equal to 3 volunteers

Then it isn't 8400 per FF. It's 3000 per FF and 5400 x the number of FF who actually show up and are interior qualified. Substantially less than the total number I'm sure.

Agreed, I was just explaining how they got to that number.

And maybe they have a pack for every interior member...

Yeah. I wasn't sure if it was actual Metz equipment re-badged with Rosenbauer's name, or just a very similar design.

Metz is owned by Rosenbauer

I'm trying to understand... $8,000 for personal protective equipment? I was gear officer for the previous 3 years... It never was more than $3,000... Is their gear made of gold?

$3,000 for tune outs + $5,400 for SCBA = $8,400

Two fire houses within a quarter mile of each other? Hmmmm!

This was very common in the late 1800's and early 1900's and still exists today in many older communities. Most houses held a single company with only a steamer and a hose cart. Today we tend to build large multi company stations.

I have never heard or read of a law that caps the # of voluneteers. Anyone have more info on that?

There is no "law" on this. It was very common to have Dept. Bylaws that had a maximum number and in the 50's - 70's it ment that many depts. had waiting lists to get in and it was often used to keep out people who were no "connected".

It isn't just the relocates that we don't need to go lights and sirens to. There's quite a few call types we honestly could scale back on and not use our warning devices.

But that's a whole 'nother conversation...

We can not even get dispatch to properly acknowledge no RLS when the IC orders it.

Does this mean any of us over the air can give names and/or other personal info, such as phone numbers?

Under HIPAA its not an issue, but as a general "safety" issue it may cause problems

but low bid is best.... the state tells us this...

Nowhere does the state say this.

The state says "Lowest Responsible Bid". That means the local AHJ has the authority to determine the specification, exemptions, and other requirements. And you get to determine if you will accept anything less or "equal" and you get to determine what is "equal".

If it was a "low bid" only, no dept in NYS would own an Aeroscope as they run about $200,000 more than any other bucket

The training is out there but only one segment of the target population is required, by statute, to take it. I think it's discrimination and career firefighters should sue for being forced to take the training!

The unions fought very hard to get the 229 hour requirement and FASNY fought equally hard to have no requirements and that's why we are debating it here.

And we continue to push and that's why its now 600 plus hours.

Sadly there are now requirements to be a Chief in most of NYS but be comforted to know to be a licensed barber you need 1020 hours not mention the beauticians license and their training.

So you might be safer in a barber shop or beauty salon, then with the incident commander

Knowing this, at least we know that the incident commander will look marvelous!

Barry I WISH THE LAWYERS WOULD HEAR IT!

I found its rarely coming from the lawyers. Its coming from the "Firehouse Lawyers" like the ones here. Or from the managers who have spoken with a lawyer (general law, not one that specializes in this). It has often be said that if you ask a roomful of lawyers an opinion, you will get a different one from everyone in the room. That being said, I know an emergency service lawyer, who will save you or take everything you own (depending on which side he is on) if you screw up with a response. He particularly likes going after agency for poor maintenance or failing to replace equipment that should have been.

Without the recorded data from your vehicle do you think it would have gone so smoothly or would you have been giving depositions for months while the lawyers jockeyed for a settlement from the city?

You are correct. I would have still been fighting this

And with the electronics in the SCBA, we can (after the fact) see when it was tested (date & time) and what the levels were. This is one of the 1st thing NIOSH checks when investigating a LODD.

A few depts. can see the air levels in real time during an incident.

Not just the hinterlands. Many apartment buildings have a door buzzer system to get in that requires a last name to get the apartment on the intercom and get the door opened.

Easy way for the FD to solve this. We advised buildings when they went to this that the 1st call we get there was going to be expensive if they did not install a Knox Box.

Then the 1st call you use Battalion Chief Halligan's key and you are in. The next day the building owner either:

a) orders a knox box or

calls the FD to complain and is told: "See a above"

If they pick "b" we repeat the process.

No building has repeated this a 3rd time.

Just press them all and muffle your voice. Haven't you learned that trick yet?

That no longer works on many of the new systems. There is a 6 or 7 digit "code" for each apt. or you have to scroll to each name press and wait, before you can select another name. In a big building that could take 10+ minutes.

Until recently most fire and EMS agencies didn't have MDT's and handheld communications devices that were silent.

Westchester County. The most taxed county in the United States only has MDT's in a handful of the 300-400 fire and EMS rigs. Because when it was last suggested, the Advisory boards said it was not needed.

1) The 3% stat comes from the Emergency Care Information Center in Escondido CA. I think it actually was 2.7%.

2) As to the 8 minute thing, we both know about the flawed logic that comes from: Brain damage occurs in cardiac arrest in 8 minutes. Therefore EACH AND EVERY CALL MUST be considered an arrest.

3) I once found a like to about 50 quotes from fire serice leaders each giving a different time for the "A fire doubles in size every (fill in the blank)". So were does the FD get the 4 minute standard from?

4) We should probably not send EMS with RLS to fires or barricades where there is no report of any need for them.

5) To paraphrase, we send fire units RLS to where there is no emergency for them to handle because there is a law requiring municipalities to provide fire protection.

6) We don't do that with medical resources because we can't afford it.

1) so 97.3% of EMS calls do not need RLS....Wow, maybe you should not let the lawyers hear that.

2) Except AHA for the last 30 years has taught that is starts at 4 minutes and by 8 its irreversible. So the goal is 4 minutes, not 8 or the big cheat that many systems use 8min 59 seconds (because that's still 8 minutes right, like when gas is $3.99 9/10 per gallon, but at least its not $4). Now their have been many other studies that show this time is critical, MI's, Choking, Strokes, Active Seizures, Trauma, etc. So its not just about cardiac arrest. Actually I am less worried about CA than many of the others, because technically they are already dead, and you cant get worst than that.

3) Can you state some of those, I've always hear 1 min. And NFPA, UL and NIST have done a numerous of studies to prove this. Now we do know that fires in the past 40 years have been growing in intensity (and we have not adjusted the response time to account for this). An increase in up to 80% in the BTU release due to the synthetics we are surrounding ourselves with. Most furniture went from natural products to "solid gasoline" (which is basically what the cushioning is). The other issue is we have gone to much greater insulation and tighter buildings (the NYS energy code) which traps heat in the building) shortening the time to flashover.

The 4 minute time, is what is needed to be on scene with enough time to place the 1st handline in place to prevent flashover (which is the time when the fire spreads from the room of origin to the rest of a structure).

4) You missed my point. I was saying that with the logic that is their were no calls during the relocation time, then we did not need to relocate. My point was that was the same logic as we don't need EMS to standby because no one is hurt yet.

5) Maybe you should rephrase, I do not believe that was what was said.

6) Yes you don't stand bye because EMS is so underfunded/understaffed.

1) why ??? in this case 4000 reasons... and from sympathomedic calculations, to save 5 maybe 6 minutes ??? really ?? logic is where ?

2) STOP kidding your self... public safety is job # 1 and going through a red light is not safe for the general public...

3) M'ave - this is not NYC, where traveling blocks can take a long time with the traffic, ( Might you I do not have allot of experience in driving down there, but have discussed it with many drivers )so if it what they want to do, so be it... they are FDNY ... and I have read back through this discussion and it seems split of the YES and NO's here... so are we really reading the same thing...

4) Look if you really feel RLS are needed for mutual aid, so be it, but god help you if your in an accident and someone is killed for a mutual aid stand by... the lawyers will have a field day with it.

5) From this incident, has the department kept or changed their policy on RLS for coverage calls ?

1) All depends on if another call comes in or more units are needed to the scene. 5 minutes could be a long time, if you are in trouble, or it may make not difference at all. Do you respond RLS to automatic fire alarms? It only saves 2 or 3 minutes, but we know that 99% result in no fire. Each year we go on 3,000 automatic alarms and 30 mutual aid calls, every mutual aid call their is an actual fire, even if we have not been moved up to it yet, but 2,998 of those AA will have no fire.

2) if its not safe then we should never ever go thru a red light, and we should take the Q2 off every rig.....

3) You are correct its not NYC, but have you seen what the traffic issues are on Main St in NR, or 4th St in MT Vernon, Yonkers Ave, or 5th Ave in Pelham or Hartsdale Ave. or Ardsley Road (where the accident was) in Greenburgh? I have waited 10-15 minutes to get down the Ardsley road hill to the BRP, just because of traffic. I worked EMS in NYC and the traffic in Southern Westchester can be just as bad or worst, because of narrower roads.

4) If you get into an accident, the facts of how you are operating RLS will be a bigger consideration for the lawyers. 3 years ago I went Mutual Aid to Yonkers (standby with Eng & Lad + me at Sta. #1) I went no RLS (do not know what the rigs did) and before I got to the house (but was in the city), was redirected to a report of a structure fire with children trapped on the 3rd floor. I was going RLS, and was involved in an MVA at an intersection. My dept vehicle had minor damage ($1,200), but the other vehicle (brand new Cadillac) along with 2 other cars were totaled and 2 other cars and some fences were damaged. The other driver sued & all the lawyers jumped on the band wagon, because RLS...its a slam dunk right?

Our lawyers had never seen our vehicle tracking logs that showed I came to a complete stop before proceeding into the intersection. At the time of the impact I was travelling under 5mph (documented). The damage to the other vehicle was a small dent in a door (estimated $1000 or less). The other driver panicked after the crash and stood on the accelerator for the next 2 blocks, bouncing of 4 cars, 2 iron fences and a guard rail. All the lawyers dropped it. Why? they determined I was properly operating an emergency vehicle and the other driver failed to yield, then failed to control his vehicle. If he had stepped on the break it would have been the end of it. Just because you are going RLS does not mean you will be wrong. Know, no one was hurt, but you are making legal assumptions, that may or may not be reality. We did not pay for any other damage than my car and the other drivers insurance paid for the damages he caused to everyone else.

In this case do you know the facts? Did Ladder 4 hit the car, or did the car hit ladder 4? Did L4 stop and proceed through the intersection, or did they barrel through?

5) No changes.

Is there any standard or law that would dictate wether or not you should use RLS on a mutual aid cover?

The law says an "emergency" now since their is no agreed definition of "emergency"... and 60 Control dispatched units (not when its not an emergency they usually call the chief)

My last 24 hour tour we did 8 runs which included 2 back to back reported structure fires.

Please do not inject facts into this.

1) OK, so bringing it back full circle: Using NR as an example, EMS resources are NOT moved into the city RLS or otherwise even when all city EMS is unavailable UNLESS it is predicted to be hours before a city unit will be free. This is despite a constant and predictable steady drumbeat of 911 demands for EMS calls, about 3% of which are truly life and death.

2) In the Greenville scenario that started the thread (remember back then?) a fire unit had to travel all of 10.2 miles (21 mins per Mr. Google) to cover two (Pelham and the Manor) agencies that COMBINED respond to 2 fire calls per day and maybe 2-3 actual fires per year. The crew used lights and sirens and become involved in a crash that caused $4000 in damage to their truck. (pure guestimate that RLS cut 25% off the response time= 5 minute 15 second time savings)

3) May I assume that the response was terminated by the crash?

4)And that no alarm came was received by PFD/PMFD while ANOTHER mutual aid company was found to replace disabled the GFD rig?

5) And, really kidding here, did anyone respond RLS INTO Greenvile to cover until they got their rig fixed?

1) Until EMS changes its entire funding methodology this will be an issue. Since there is no legal requirement to provide EMS in NYS, most municipalities underfund EMS and rely on 3rd party billing, which was never designed to cover the cost of emergency EMS services. So Every community is struggling and does not have the total resources needed to cover the response time criteria that the public demands.

If only 3% are life and death why are the standards BLS in 4 minutes and ALS in 8 minutes 90% of the time?

2) Fire service has not been designed around call volume (like EMS is) Its best on insurance loss tables that have been in use for 110 years. The costs of fire protection are a component of insurance and if their are calls or are no calls, the $$$ value to insurance companies remain the same. The insurance standard is apparatus can cover up to 5 miles Max, beyond that all properties are rated no FD protection. It does not matter that statistically their are no calls. Of much greater importance was their is a active fire in a structure in Pelham, part of the reason for moving rigs up is if anything changes at the fire scene we may need additional units immediately, as you said its 15 - 20 minutes away. If fire conditions change its too late, particularly if FF's or civilians are in danger. In other parts of the country, they stag these additional units a block or 2 from the scene (maybe not a bad idea).

Wow, it must have been a horrible crash to cause $4,000 in damage to a $800,000 truck (0.5%)...what did it do, scrape the paint, break a light?

And before people scream it crashed? who hit who? Is it possible that the teen was not paying attention and drove into the back or side of a 45 foot long, 12 foot high Red wall with flashing lights?

3) I do not know, but you should never ASSume

4) Based on this, we should never send EMS to a fire or a police barricade until someone is injured, because they are not needed at time of dispatch

5) Don't know, but they and many other departments have auto aid agreements to cover when rigs are out of service (GFD has both YFD & HFD). Also many depts. get loaner rigs from other depts. or rentals from dealers. NRFD had an FDNY loaner for a long time after losing a rig.

NR only has Ambulances cover during major emergencies (when our units will not be available for hours)

2. Not even talking about volunteers- could you imagine if New Rochelle asked for a cover ambulance each time every NR ambulance was busy on a call? Or Mt Vernon? But if the last fire truck in those cities was then sent on a call, it would be Holy Hell- there are no fire engines in NR!!! We need to alert DES, the State, the next 3 agencies need to shift resources in there RIGHT NOW! With lights and sirens apparently.

This is just untrue. It is very common that we have every rig assigned to a call and we do not call for "coverage". The only time we do is if we have a "Working Structure Fire" At a 2nd alarm or higher.

Bee-DO Bee-DO