firefighter36

Its not about if they are, or are not functioning well, its about MONEY. Who is paying, how much are they paying and how much money can be moved from the FD to the town, if they can pull this off.

I thought it was time to get our brains back to work with a scenario. How about for this one, the nore experienced guys keep quiet for a while, and let the newer guys show their stuff.
This is what you see on arrival. It was reported as a "kitchen fire."
What can you tell us about this particular building,just by looking at the arrival picture?
Where is the kitchen.
And, if you've got the time "Was she a tall cow?

The Rats WERE around 20 years ago. I have gotten a couple of rat bites myself. So did my father 50 years ago. Remember Caeser and Brutus? Rats have been around a long time. If the rats aren't after you, you may be one of them. Keep your vaccinations up-to-date, the rats aren't going to go away.

FYI...
A fireman's bell cap is intended to be worn with the brim facing the front.
No matter how cool you may think you look, it is never Ok to wear a uniform cap backwards. It is disrespectful to your uniform, your department, and the fire service as a whole.
It may even be grounds for a solid smack upside the head.
That is all.

Probably the one area of personal safety that is most commonly overlooked in the fire service is that of hearing protection. But it is extremely important that fire departments and firefighters recognize and maintain awareness, and undertake protective measures for the well being, and preservation of the ability to hear.
It is an invisible danger that too many firefighters are careless and carefree about. We all think our hearing is indestructible. Especially the younger brothers and sisters, who think everything else about their bodies is indestructible as well. But, this is not the case, as you will come to find out in the coming decades. The steps you take today to protect your hearing, could help ensure the quality of life you would like to maintain, is possible in the future.
There is an OSHA Standard for Hearing Protection 29 CFR (1910.95). There is also a hearing protection requirement in NFPA 1500. Here's a link to USFA document regarding the issue:
http://www.phsource.us/PH/OC/FireFighters/fa-118.pdf
It's a dry subject and a dry read for sure.
But your department is required to provide as safe a workplace as possible. How many of you are working for a department that is carefully following the OSHA Standard/NFPA Guideline?
How many of you carry the same awareness to protect your hearing, as much as you protect your breathing in an IDLH wearing SCBA?
Are you practicing and training using power tools, and wearing ear-muffs as well? Is your department providing you with the latest in head-gear for hearing protection? Do your rigs have a set-up of head-gear with communication for everyone aboard? How about for the pump operator?
Practically speaking, it's impossible to protect your hearing at all times on the fireground. But did you know that the striking of the irons produces a decibel level of damaging proportions? Think about how many times you've been the firefighter holding the haligan while another member continually smacked the ax into it. Ever have a slight fuzzy ring in one or both ears after it was done?
The continued exposure to loud and damaging noise takes a cumulative effect over time on your hearing. You can go for years, decades, without noticing any problems.
But your department should be testing your hearing at least once a year. Are they providing that service to you, so you can understand as the years go by how the job is affecting your hearing?
Don't brush this topic aside. There's worse things that can happen to your hearing than going deaf. There's an illness called tinnitus. It's where one day, you start to notice that your hearing is making some kind of noise all by itself. The damage your ears had been taking all along suddenly can't take anymore, and the effect of the damage presents itself as a non-stop, internal, no-cure known, constant noise in your ear/s.
Put those ear-muffs on before you start that partner saw on your daily check. Develop ways to protect yourself, protect your ears, savor your exquisite hearing.
Question for the board: Is your department OSHA compliant regarding hearing protection standards? What do you do personally to protect your hearing while at work?

A tid-bit I gleaned from the Lohud piece was one of the B'Ville officers had started with the NYPD. Another with the MVPD. That's what originally made me so angry about what the city of White Plains did to these cops and firefighters. When a cop transfers from one place with job security, under the assumption that the new employer understands what that employee is giving up to come over to job, it is the height of irresponsibility for that municipality to then turn around and lay-off the employee.
Lay-offs can literally destroy lives. If a municipality is going to take on an employee in civil service, they should damn well know how and what their financial health is going to be going forward. Otherwise, don't hire in the first place! I'm sure the officer would have gladly held onto his position in the NYPD if there was any indication from White Plains that maybe they wouldn't be able to fund his position in a couple of years. White Plains should have made it clear to their new hires, especially the transferee's, that the chance of lay-offs loomed in the near future. Then if a person decides to take that chance; well at least they know what they're getting into.
I still say SHAME on White Plains, and that city has an obligation to all laid off cops & FFs to follow up with support services to help get all of them placed or rehired. Until then, I hope the mayor and city council carry it heavily on their consciences, and they don't sleep at night.

Sounds like they should put 2 more career men on and staff their own ambulance!

I feel for the firefighters in Lawrence, but the City is in a bind and from what I can determine, the situation will continue to get worse, not better.
The City is in such bad financial shape that its finances have been taken over by the State of MA, similar to what happened to Waterbury, CT and other poor cities in the past.
Lawrence, MA is a WELFARE City.....it has a population that is decidedly younger than the MA average and an average family income that is half that for the State of MA.
The City's Grand List, the total value of all real property, continues to decline as abandoned buildings burn down or are torn down or are taken over by the City because the owners have not paid taxes for years.
Residential properties make up 78 percent of the City's taxpaying properties!!!!! And no wonder,who would want to locate a business in a City where the tax rate on commercial property is twice that of residential. The real problem there is the forgotten rule of economics ---NO BUSINESS CAN PAY TAXES. IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND NO BUSINESS HAS EVER PAID A PENNY OF TAXES AND NO BUSINESS EVER WILL. Taxing business is a scam by government to hide the amount of taxes you are paying. As an Economist by Education, I can tell you that every penny of tax levied on a business is paid by the customers of that business in the form of higher prices for goods and services. So the plan is Lawrence is self defeating. A business located in Lawrence, which is a tiny place of less than 7 square miles, is at an economic disadvantage to a business located in an adjacent town, because it must charge more to account for the higher taxes.
It looks like the Mutual Aid system is broken in that it has become strictly one way. The other towns around Lawrence, need to protect their own taxpayers. While I do not advocate that they stop aiding Lawrence firefighters, the other towns should set a limit on how many mutual aid calls they will do in a year for free (based on the number of mutual aids they expect to receive from Lawrence). After that, there should be an hourly rate, per truck, sent to Lawrence to cover the cost of providing the service. Or at some point, officials in the surrounding towns could face lawsuits from their own taxpayers angry over paying for services to Lawrence that Lawrence should be providing but simply can not.

Did some research, I have 2 more years until I am eligible to run!

The FDMV guys have always done good work.
It's their city leader that can't be rescued.

How about one that says "Thanks for funding that library addition and making 2 empty seats on this vehicle"

Even better:


We are your Firefighters.
Everything we use is Low Bid
Thanks to our City Council

First, we who have health care ARE sharing the wealth. Illegaal immigrants, those on welfare for generations, and the like pay nothing for their health care, The reason we get hospital statements showing $ 4.oo for an aspirin is because we paid for our aspirin plus the 8 doses for the freeloaders I mentioned above.
Second, those in the private sector are always ready to bang cops and FF's over health insurance costs. From proby to Chief, our salary and benefits are an open book. How does the private sector CEO's salary/benefit package compare to his average employee? I bet he's doing OK if you can even find out! How many Fire Chiefs make 100 to 1000 times more than his FF's? Not a one. Maybe...just maybe...Cops and FF's are good negotiators,, and those in the private sector are not.
Third. Cops and FF's are not that smart. We keep endorsing Democrats, and a year or two later, they want to lower our salaries, and lay us off. It happens over and over.
And yes, Rob, I know we have to scramble. I was just spewing out a few thoughts while I scramble.

Its not unfortunate, its criminal that the state is so far behind the times on such a vital issue as firefighter safety but that is what the volunteer fire service (thru FASNY) has lobbied Albany hard for years to maintain.
So since the state is unwilling to step up to the plate the volunteer leadership has to; 1st be the chief, be the leader and make it a requirement of your department. Require minimum training standards that are realistic and protect the lives and property of those you swore to protect and most importantly to protect the lives of your members.
2nd be a leader and tell FASNY that lack of training standards is hurting the volunteer fire service and they need to fight to make the standards comprable to what NFPA & ISO require as minimums.

Hey all
Greetings from sunny Camp Leatherneck Afghanistan where I'm about 2 months in on a one year FF contract.
Now to the topic at hand.
I share many of the views that have been expressed here at least in part. Without fail ANY officer should have to meet a minimum series of requirements to serve in any given position whether they are appointed or elected. My dept requires that you pass an in house test to become eligible to run for office (yes we elect our officers). While this may not seem enough it is better than some other options that I have seen.
For me personally I'm a fan of the follwing three step process for officers (regardless of status) be they from a combo dept or not.
1.time served
2.certification/training
3.testing
I do believe that for volunteers electing officers is an acceptable method so long as the criteria above are met. That being said I am without reservation opposed to differing standards within a dept for career and volunteer personnel at any rank. Also I cannot fathom career only and volunteer only officers as this in effect creates two departments in one and only adds to divisiveness and friction. As much as some may take exception to the following, but based on my experiences I think that the officer ranks within a combo department should be filled by volunteer personnel...but again only after the minimums above are met. (If any career people here are offended by my views you are fully within your rights to feel that way, but remember my views are based on my experiences).
Now I fully realize that in many cases career personnel do recieve more training in terms of hours than volunteers, but it is also not that uncommon to find volunteers who have as much if not more experience with actual calls than their career counterparts. As I've said many times (much to chagrin of some) a paycheck does not in and of itself guarantee anything other than a career FF recieves a paycheck. I have been involved with a couple of VFDs that run and work more than many smaller or even mid sized (200+) all career depts. What is of most importance is that the people put into officers positions are qualified to be there regardless of status, but alas this is not always the case on either side of the fire service coin.
It is a monumental task to try to change the "norm" of any department, but as with most anything worthwile the time and effort expended will be well worth it if in the end we produce the highest quality officers our department's are capable of producing because by doing so we all benefit.
Cogs
Peter Cogliano
Firefighter
Dyncorp/LOGCAP IV
Camp Leatherneck
Afghanistan

Great question! To be honest, that is something I feel changes based on the situation. I took the rural water supply class a few years ago, and it was an eye opener coming from a place that is mostly hydrants. Anyhow, in our evolutions, there didn't seem to be as much of a distance of supply line as there was an emphasis for the proper number of tankers to keep an uninterrupted supply of water showing up to the attack rig from the various water sources. As a matter of fact, the instructor showed over time into the final exercise that we were 1 tanker short of keeping a constant attack. (We ran multiple master streams, hand lines, etc.)
Why would it change? Availability of manpower, tankers, and location of static water sources. The lay of the land is an important factor, how far down a long driveway, up or down hill, etc. The impression I got from the class was that departments need to have the right equipment and the right plan. Unfortunately, there are departments out there that think an engine with a larger booster tank is sufficient. Is that really the case? or are Tankers not as near and dear to member's hearts as an engine or truck?
Also, food for thought, at a relatively large fire, in a hydranted area, we laid 1000 ft of 5" along with a dual lay of 3" and 2.5" not because of any kind of friction loss formula, but because we needed to hit a 2nd hydrant and quick to maintain water supply based on a change in water pressure from a main.

This is a tough topic and one that's surely going to raise the collective blood pressure. However, that said, I don't believe that you can have a successful combination department if you actively create what ends up being, essentially, two classes of firefighter/officer. How can it really function? You're going to have to preface every officer's title with either "Volunteer" or "Career"? That sounds a bit silly.
I believe that for operational management and individual moral, you can't have a structure like this. I can imagine that you might have a situation where only career members can be officers, or vice versa with only volunteer officers. Or, all things being equal and you have all members holding equally weighted titles, the way it should be.
Now for the tricky part....
....you gotta have equal qualifications and this is where the waters get a little murky. You cannot call a guy who took Intro to Officer and Fire Officer 1 a Lieutenant and have a guy who went to FLIPS 5 days a week for 5 weeks Lieutenant as well. Career officers were promoted through competitive examination while volunteers are voted into office. This does call into question the validity of the member holding that rank as popularity can play an unfortunate roll. The manner in which a person is promoted is something that is simply not going to change, so we're going to have to move past that. Volunteer/Combination departments can bolster the validity of an elected volunteer officer by insuring that the candidate pool is very strong, has a certain number of years of experience and holds far more than the basic set of certifications from state fire classes. FLIPS is almost 200 hours long, so you have to put that in perspective and put together a list of prerequisites that can, at least, somewhat compare. The smart, dedicated volunteers (and I know a bunch) have already or will put in the time. You just have to hope you have enough of them.

HOW 'BOUT THIS:
An unnamed city has a hydrant system but it is getting old and needs upgrade to support the hi rises that a couple of hypothetical developers (let's call them Cappelli and Trump) want to build. They feel that the United Water customers (who are exactly the same people as the taxpayers)
should foot the bill for upgrades. The developers get what they want, but the FD should really double in size to protect these buildings. Amazingly, the hypothetical developers got a big tax break to build these buildings in the first place. The FD was part of the planning process, but more or less ignored.
Are you confused yet?? Maybe the unnamed City Council got confused too.. What's why they voted for it. Believe it or not, it happened in another unnamed city nearby, too.
Now both unnamed cities are talking Layoffs!
I said "you get what you pay for" but I will take that back. Sometimes you pay dearly and get nothing.
Oh...PS...Trump and Cappelli are doing OK...Thanks for asking

The no strike clause and severe penalty for striking (2 day's pay for every day on strike) is there to insure the public will be protected. WE cops and FF have to really believe a strike is necessary before taking that 2-day hit.
What's the penalty for city council reducing public protection by laying off cops and ff?

NOBODY has ever walked out of arbitration happy. That's the whole point...the arbitrator usually takes both agruements and meets in the middle. Have you met Feiner? One time he tried to close the Tappan Zee Bridge on Sundays and use it for bicycles and joggers.

I'm not looking to argue either, but the more accurate statement would be that each department is going to do what it feels like doing and what it thinks is the best for it. Regardless, what works best for the department may not exactly be what works best for the citizens and the community. Just look at the Stamford threads because I think you'd have a pretty hard time arguing that whatever is going on there is truly best for the citizens and the community.

You sure about that? I hear an awful lot of 2nd, 3rd, 4th dispatches, Calls turned over mutual aid because of lack of a response, etc. where I am, and I doubt staffing meets either NFPA 1710 or NFPA 1720 standards.
If the job is getting done, it sure as hell isn't getting done safely, or promptly as dispatch logs can probably show.
Anything that can increase available QUALIFIED and WELL-TRAINED staffing and an appropriate compliment of equipment to emergency scenes sounds worth looking at to me.....

Does it?
We pay more fore it.
We have poorer ratings than other areas...so we pay more for insurance
We need multiple depts to respond to a room & content fire
And as we get to see photes on EmtBravo, we still get the same roof burned off.
Does the job get done because of us or inspite of us.

Makes you wonder where people's priorities lie.... Remember, in NY each Fire District (Fire Districts Cover Towns and are separate governmental entities) has 5 commissioners, Chiefs, etc. Throw in Municipal (city & village) politicians, the current law, and the mess in Albany, and well, you get one hell of a mess and a system that gets to stay broken for lack of political support. Throw in a political organization that lobbies to lower training standards and raise service awards, and well, you get the point....

To start with, All ff's are required to have hazmat ops before they are allowed to respond on any calls. OFPC always ran it as a 15 hour course. But when they reorganized it under FF1, they dropped it to 6-9 hours (but they never told the instructors what material to cut out) and they still run it as 15 hours stand alone. This was considered ok because the law requires the depts and not NYS to provide the training and it must be customized to each dept. which OFPC can not do. Also every FF must have an annual refresher.