16fire5

Really sad about the kids,however since the word lawsuit has now been mentioned due to response delays maybe its time for the responsible parties to be charged for not having working smoke detectors. Easy to sue the city and blame EMS for there issues but what about those that dont follow law in regards to smoke and carbon monoxide detectors. City will hand out money to settle this and those kids will never be back, a shame that the parents will "profit" from this loss.

The arbitration board is the DC arbitration board and seems to be pretty lopsided towards management. The current schedule is 24 on 72 off a 4 platoon system. The proposed system is 3-12 hour days followed by 3-12 hour nights followed by 3 days off which is a 3 platoon system. The average workweek will go from 42 hours a week to 56. I don't think DC intends to pay the members for the extra 14 hours. While it may seem that 12 hour shifts will better combat fatigue the reality is that is not true. A member working their 3rd consecutive night tour will be beyond exhaustion. In a perfect world people will believe that everyone is getting 8 hours sleep in between these tours but it's just not true. Our chart in the city is 9 hour days and 15 hour nights and members frequently trade to make them into 24s. From personal experience I am never more exhausted than when I'm working consecutive nights. In reality you will be late getting out of work (awaiting relief, fires near the end of the shift, and regular administrative duties) then you drive home how ever long in my case an hour and then your young kids never got them memo about daddy needing to sleep and you need to eat something....before you know it it's time to get back in the car. So in a practical sense 24s work better on the human body. Also they save money in that there are less times when overtime is incurred for calls overlapping the end of the shift. They result in fewer vehicle trips, less gas usage, and a lower carbon footprint.
This whole thing is much more about thinly veiled racism and an political machine agenda.

This is just one more example of the so many that confirms to me that we have gone past the tipping point. Common sense / practical thinking no longer factor into much of the decision making taking place these days.

The arbitration board is the DC arbitration board and seems to be pretty lopsided towards management. The current schedule is 24 on 72 off a 4 platoon system. The proposed system is 3-12 hour days followed by 3-12 hour nights followed by 3 days off which is a 3 platoon system. The average workweek will go from 42 hours a week to 56. I don't think DC intends to pay the members for the extra 14 hours. While it may seem that 12 hour shifts will better combat fatigue the reality is that is not true. A member working their 3rd consecutive night tour will be beyond exhaustion. In a perfect world people will believe that everyone is getting 8 hours sleep in between these tours but it's just not true. Our chart in the city is 9 hour days and 15 hour nights and members frequently trade to make them into 24s. From personal experience I am never more exhausted than when I'm working consecutive nights. In reality you will be late getting out of work (awaiting relief, fires near the end of the shift, and regular administrative duties) then you drive home how ever long in my case an hour and then your young kids never got them memo about daddy needing to sleep and you need to eat something....before you know it it's time to get back in the car. So in a practical sense 24s work better on the human body. Also they save money in that there are less times when overtime is incurred for calls overlapping the end of the shift. They result in fewer vehicle trips, less gas usage, and a lower carbon footprint.
This whole thing is much more about thinly veiled racism and an political machine agenda.

The arbitration board is the DC arbitration board and seems to be pretty lopsided towards management. The current schedule is 24 on 72 off a 4 platoon system. The proposed system is 3-12 hour days followed by 3-12 hour nights followed by 3 days off which is a 3 platoon system. The average workweek will go from 42 hours a week to 56. I don't think DC intends to pay the members for the extra 14 hours. While it may seem that 12 hour shifts will better combat fatigue the reality is that is not true. A member working their 3rd consecutive night tour will be beyond exhaustion. In a perfect world people will believe that everyone is getting 8 hours sleep in between these tours but it's just not true. Our chart in the city is 9 hour days and 15 hour nights and members frequently trade to make them into 24s. From personal experience I am never more exhausted than when I'm working consecutive nights. In reality you will be late getting out of work (awaiting relief, fires near the end of the shift, and regular administrative duties) then you drive home how ever long in my case an hour and then your young kids never got them memo about daddy needing to sleep and you need to eat something....before you know it it's time to get back in the car. So in a practical sense 24s work better on the human body. Also they save money in that there are less times when overtime is incurred for calls overlapping the end of the shift. They result in fewer vehicle trips, less gas usage, and a lower carbon footprint.
This whole thing is much more about thinly veiled racism and an political machine agenda.

The arbitration board is the DC arbitration board and seems to be pretty lopsided towards management. The current schedule is 24 on 72 off a 4 platoon system. The proposed system is 3-12 hour days followed by 3-12 hour nights followed by 3 days off which is a 3 platoon system. The average workweek will go from 42 hours a week to 56. I don't think DC intends to pay the members for the extra 14 hours. While it may seem that 12 hour shifts will better combat fatigue the reality is that is not true. A member working their 3rd consecutive night tour will be beyond exhaustion. In a perfect world people will believe that everyone is getting 8 hours sleep in between these tours but it's just not true. Our chart in the city is 9 hour days and 15 hour nights and members frequently trade to make them into 24s. From personal experience I am never more exhausted than when I'm working consecutive nights. In reality you will be late getting out of work (awaiting relief, fires near the end of the shift, and regular administrative duties) then you drive home how ever long in my case an hour and then your young kids never got them memo about daddy needing to sleep and you need to eat something....before you know it it's time to get back in the car. So in a practical sense 24s work better on the human body. Also they save money in that there are less times when overtime is incurred for calls overlapping the end of the shift. They result in fewer vehicle trips, less gas usage, and a lower carbon footprint.
This whole thing is much more about thinly veiled racism and an political machine agenda.

The arbitration board is the DC arbitration board and seems to be pretty lopsided towards management. The current schedule is 24 on 72 off a 4 platoon system. The proposed system is 3-12 hour days followed by 3-12 hour nights followed by 3 days off which is a 3 platoon system. The average workweek will go from 42 hours a week to 56. I don't think DC intends to pay the members for the extra 14 hours. While it may seem that 12 hour shifts will better combat fatigue the reality is that is not true. A member working their 3rd consecutive night tour will be beyond exhaustion. In a perfect world people will believe that everyone is getting 8 hours sleep in between these tours but it's just not true. Our chart in the city is 9 hour days and 15 hour nights and members frequently trade to make them into 24s. From personal experience I am never more exhausted than when I'm working consecutive nights. In reality you will be late getting out of work (awaiting relief, fires near the end of the shift, and regular administrative duties) then you drive home how ever long in my case an hour and then your young kids never got them memo about daddy needing to sleep and you need to eat something....before you know it it's time to get back in the car. So in a practical sense 24s work better on the human body. Also they save money in that there are less times when overtime is incurred for calls overlapping the end of the shift. They result in fewer vehicle trips, less gas usage, and a lower carbon footprint.
This whole thing is much more about thinly veiled racism and an political machine agenda.

The arbitration board is the DC arbitration board and seems to be pretty lopsided towards management. The current schedule is 24 on 72 off a 4 platoon system. The proposed system is 3-12 hour days followed by 3-12 hour nights followed by 3 days off which is a 3 platoon system. The average workweek will go from 42 hours a week to 56. I don't think DC intends to pay the members for the extra 14 hours. While it may seem that 12 hour shifts will better combat fatigue the reality is that is not true. A member working their 3rd consecutive night tour will be beyond exhaustion. In a perfect world people will believe that everyone is getting 8 hours sleep in between these tours but it's just not true. Our chart in the city is 9 hour days and 15 hour nights and members frequently trade to make them into 24s. From personal experience I am never more exhausted than when I'm working consecutive nights. In reality you will be late getting out of work (awaiting relief, fires near the end of the shift, and regular administrative duties) then you drive home how ever long in my case an hour and then your young kids never got them memo about daddy needing to sleep and you need to eat something....before you know it it's time to get back in the car. So in a practical sense 24s work better on the human body. Also they save money in that there are less times when overtime is incurred for calls overlapping the end of the shift. They result in fewer vehicle trips, less gas usage, and a lower carbon footprint.
This whole thing is much more about thinly veiled racism and an political machine agenda.

They already have tillers so I'm not really sure how much better they can get. This stupid discussion comes up from time to time when a know it all planner or developer is sick of the fire department's comments. If the Fire Department was commenting on street width they were doing their job. I've been on both sides of this and have never debated the fire chief or marshals input. In fact at times I've helped them out.

So far with all the deflection going on not one poster has supported allowing firefighters to drink in the firehouse. I guess there are no bars in firehouses anymore, which if true is a good thing.

More deflection. I guess the chief placed the temporary ban on drinking in the firehouse because he was drinking somewhere else. Maybe if we find out he was only drinking hard alcohol we could ban that but allow beer.

I guess if we just go back and forth about paid vs. volunteer and find one article about a career firefighter drinking and driving a rig we can ignore my point. We call it deflecting in the firehouse. Since there's no good reason to have drinking in the firehouse and it inevitably leads to cases like this.

I guess if we just go back and forth about paid vs. volunteer and find one article about a career firefighter drinking and driving a rig we can ignore my point. We call it deflecting in the firehouse. Since there's no good reason to have drinking in the firehouse and it inevitably leads to cases like this.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/elmwood-park-fire-captain-charged-with-dwi-after-crashing-firetruck-on-return-from-call-1.997501
I'm not looking to get the normal "black eye for the fire service stuff here"
The fact is there are no new lessons to be learned here; only old lessons that tragically went unheeded. If you're allowing this in your firehouse it's just a matter of time before this happens in your community. Why risk lives and the confidence of the public you serve. Get the beer out of the firehouse. I love a cold one as much as anyone else but as they say "there's a a time and a place for everything" and the firehouse and on duty are neither.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/elmwood-park-fire-captain-charged-with-dwi-after-crashing-firetruck-on-return-from-call-1.997501
I'm not looking to get the normal "black eye for the fire service stuff here"
The fact is there are no new lessons to be learned here; only old lessons that tragically went unheeded. If you're allowing this in your firehouse it's just a matter of time before this happens in your community. Why risk lives and the confidence of the public you serve. Get the beer out of the firehouse. I love a cold one as much as anyone else but as they say "there's a a time and a place for everything" and the firehouse and on duty are neither.

I think it's impractical to think officers will not attempt evacuations when first arriving at fires but I stand by my opinion that having them use elevators is not worth the risk. If they have the keys and want to bring the elevators down to the lobby that's a great idea since it will have them there for the first arriving companies and prevent occupants from using them and being trapped. The problem with having cops in elevators before FD arrival is 1. They are taking away an elevator that the FD will need and 2. Even in fireman service an elevator is still not safe. They are a necessary evil and we use them in a calculated manner. Firefighters who take elevators always have SCBA and forcible entry tools. If elevator car malfunctions and goes to or above the fire floor the firefighters can don SCBA. If the car stalls the firefighters can attempt to self extricate with their tools. And if the car fails to respond to commands prying open the doors stops the car. This is not some overly cautious rant I'm basing this on the experience of the FDNY and personally being at fires where elevators operated erratically.

I think it's impractical to think officers will not attempt evacuations when first arriving at fires but I stand by my opinion that having them use elevators is not worth the risk. If they have the keys and want to bring the elevators down to the lobby that's a great idea since it will have them there for the first arriving companies and prevent occupants from using them and being trapped. The problem with having cops in elevators before FD arrival is 1. They are taking away an elevator that the FD will need and 2. Even in fireman service an elevator is still not safe. They are a necessary evil and we use them in a calculated manner. Firefighters who take elevators always have SCBA and forcible entry tools. If elevator car malfunctions and goes to or above the fire floor the firefighters can don SCBA. If the car stalls the firefighters can attempt to self extricate with their tools. And if the car fails to respond to commands prying open the doors stops the car. This is not some overly cautious rant I'm basing this on the experience of the FDNY and personally being at fires where elevators operated erratically.

I think it's impractical to think officers will not attempt evacuations when first arriving at fires but I stand by my opinion that having them use elevators is not worth the risk. If they have the keys and want to bring the elevators down to the lobby that's a great idea since it will have them there for the first arriving companies and prevent occupants from using them and being trapped. The problem with having cops in elevators before FD arrival is 1. They are taking away an elevator that the FD will need and 2. Even in fireman service an elevator is still not safe. They are a necessary evil and we use them in a calculated manner. Firefighters who take elevators always have SCBA and forcible entry tools. If elevator car malfunctions and goes to or above the fire floor the firefighters can don SCBA. If the car stalls the firefighters can attempt to self extricate with their tools. And if the car fails to respond to commands prying open the doors stops the car. This is not some overly cautious rant I'm basing this on the experience of the FDNY and personally being at fires where elevators operated erratically.

How can it be a secret if it drove past everyone from Nebraska to Conn.?

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but my biggest issue is with their use of the elevator. I don't really think an SOP is needed to tell people not to use elevators during fires. It's common knowledge and it's posted next to elevators everywhere. If they had used the stairs we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but my biggest issue is with their use of the elevator. I don't really think an SOP is needed to tell people not to use elevators during fires. It's common knowledge and it's posted next to elevators everywhere. If they had used the stairs we wouldn't be having this conversation.

We need to reach out to our counterparts and ensure we are giving them some good basic training to make informed decisions on the actions they take at fires if they are in before us. It's not like the old days the smoke today can overcome you in a few breaths as we see happened here. Also we are now learning more and more about fire behavior and it's critically important for us to control ventilation especially before water is applied. We have all seen the well meaning officers on arrival who have taken windows or held the door open. We know this will quickly increase the intensity of the fire.
I can see that having them could come in handy for police matters but I think they should be forbidden from using them at fires. The responding companies need them to get to the fire floor quickly. At the very least you need to get 2 engines and 1 truck up to the fire floor to begin the attack. If PD arrives and takes one of the elevators to the upper floors that is one less for us to use to get upstairs. And lets face it in NYC's public housing it's pretty common for one elevator to be out of service.

A fight......in hockey. Part of the game. So?
By the way, two cops selflessly rushed into a building yesterday investigating a fire. When they were overcome with smoke while stuck in an elevator, firemen rushed in to help our brothers in blue.
This is the story of reality on the street everyday. Two agency's that work hard along side each other.....
......oh! Sorry, let's get back to the completely unheard-of occurrence of a fight during a hockey game. (A game that ended with hand shakes and hugs all around)

The concept of mixing steel, masonry, and wood to make a structure is hardly new. The H types of the Bronx that probably started to be built about 100 years ago were able to surpass the size of their predecessors the old law tenements by using steel I beams both horizontally and vertically. The buildings consist of a masonry exterior, with steel I beams horizontally and vertically spaced supporting wood floor and roof joists. They are ordinary construction.
The difference is the new buildings is today's wood. Notice I didn't just single out lightweight components because today's dimensional lumber has been shown to fail much earlier than the traditional lumber of the past.
Dunn and Branigan implored us to realize the difference between a structure and a contents fire and calling all jobs a structure fire was incorrect. Once the fire is attacking the structural components we're on borrowed time. The operational window with today's lumber even dimensional is nil.
The only way we should tolerate those materials today is if they are protected behind fire rated drywall and the structure is protected with automatic sprinklers.
Seth's pictures illustrate a good and inexpensive drill. Take pictures of buildings under construction in your area and have a good discussion on how we will operate when it catches on fire. Many of today's recruits don't have the slightest idea what a building looks like underneath the sheathing and sheet rock.

The concept of mixing steel, masonry, and wood to make a structure is hardly new. The H types of the Bronx that probably started to be built about 100 years ago were able to surpass the size of their predecessors the old law tenements by using steel I beams both horizontally and vertically. The buildings consist of a masonry exterior, with steel I beams horizontally and vertically spaced supporting wood floor and roof joists. They are ordinary construction.
The difference is the new buildings is today's wood. Notice I didn't just single out lightweight components because today's dimensional lumber has been shown to fail much earlier than the traditional lumber of the past.
Dunn and Branigan implored us to realize the difference between a structure and a contents fire and calling all jobs a structure fire was incorrect. Once the fire is attacking the structural components we're on borrowed time. The operational window with today's lumber even dimensional is nil.
The only way we should tolerate those materials today is if they are protected behind fire rated drywall and the structure is protected with automatic sprinklers.
Seth's pictures illustrate a good and inexpensive drill. Take pictures of buildings under construction in your area and have a good discussion on how we will operate when it catches on fire. Many of today's recruits don't have the slightest idea what a building looks like underneath the sheathing and sheet rock.