16fire5

I agree it's not an apples to apples comparison. I'm not 100% sure what he's talking abut but The Villages has a large stand alone department that is not run by Rural Metro and is an IAFF local, I believe the same is true for the County Fire Rescue. Rural/Metro replaced the county EMS organization after they went under a few years ago. As for Rural Metro pursuing large municipal fire contracts that does not appear to be the case. The company nearly went under itself. Their largest flagship operation (Scottsdale, AZ) became a municipal department.

Understood you're glad to see him go and we're glad to have him back.

It appears that it will be the 3rd in line civilian position. Fire Commissioner, 1st Deputy, and then Chief of Staff. If the rumors are correct that Bob Turner will be 1st Deputy and Sweeney will be Chief of Staff you will have 3 very senior veteran fire officers as the top 3 civilians in HQ.

Understood you're glad to see him go and we're glad to have him back.

Any rig could be mutual aid but they generally are not. E-24 almost never has gone mutual aid. E22 & L12 are it because of standards of cover. Its not just on paper. If L-13 goes then 75% of our city is left uncovered until we relocate L-12 to station #3. So until we do what is done in many other places like MD, VA, OR, MI, WI, CA and drop boarders and do closest unit responses this is what works best for our community.

Understood you're glad to see him go and we're glad to have him back.

Now you know I meant legs and not kegs in the above posting, if we could get kegs involved it would be a ravening success.

A pair of Ladder Company Chauffeurs deserve an atta boy to for getting the rigs in those positions. Not only VEIS but real nice to have as a means of egress when aggressive searches are underway. Fireproof projects=no fire escapes.

A pair of Ladder Company Chauffeurs deserve an atta boy to for getting the rigs in those positions. Not only VEIS but real nice to have as a means of egress when aggressive searches are underway. Fireproof projects=no fire escapes.

Thanks, Snotty, I knew somebody out there would bring up Education in The Fire Service. Way back when, before there was a FLIP, or for that matter, any formal education (except FDNY's Academy) there was a number of individuals who demanded education. My father went to the Delehanty Institute in NYC ni the late '50s. Then a new concept opened in Mount Vernon in about 1958. Imagine a course for firefighters taught by Manny Fried, FDNY who wrote the book on strategy and tactics.
The "nob" was then passed to guys like DC Oreste Spallone and Capt Seely Burigo who made Fire Science an Associate Degree course. Our education was now "official." We weren't done six or eight of us persuaded Mercy College to offer a BS Degree based on John Jay's curriculum and in 1977, I was proud to be in the first graduating class with a BS in Fire Science. Meanwhile, Doc Kiernan and a few Chiefs were working on a Career Chiefs Academy for new firefighters, then FLSS for new officers which was Statewide and Required.
Now, instead of taking 25 guys and burning things down (we called it "building a parking lot"), we can now take 150 guys, fighting a fire in a organized manner, and leaving fire buildings bruised but still standing. We also have better accountability, better equipment, and special teams like Hazmat, Tech Rescue, etc.
So what's my point in all of this? I sometimes hear of the new generation pointing fingers at prior generations saying today's way is better. Sure, it's better, but the new generation didn't make it better. It took a lot of work on the part of older generations to develop these innovations and hand them to today's firefighters.
You don't have to tell the old guys that they were doing things screwed up. They know that. That's why they changed things. Now, new generation, it's your turn to "take the nob." If you don't like something
change it, but remember, these things take time.
Oh, by the way, if you happen to run into an old guy, just tell him "thanks."

To answer the original question there is a Captain's Development Course that was originally 2 weeks, was 4 by the time I went, and might now be up to 5. About a week of it focuses on the job of Captain and the rest is all about preparing Captains to be Acting Battalion Chiefs.
The Battalion Chief's command course is now 8 or 9 weeks. There is a tremendous amount of material presented on a great number of topics.
There's a class for Deputies. It's relatively new and I'm not sure the length.

City vs. Upstate.....
So I was an upstate guy and then became an FDNY guy so I have a unique perspective. First everyone's stories are anecdotal stories about tiny samplings so taking any of the generalizations to heart is silly. QTIP might be appropriate here.
Hurst Tool. We've come a long way I guess. Let's also remember there are more than 140 ladder companies with tools and due to differences in training and actual experience results will vary. I was lucky when I was a firefighter we seemed to go to nightly car fires (anyone else remember that?) Sanitation would tag the car and we would come back the next day and practice with the tool. It was great training. Now we go to junk yards pretty much whenever we want and drill.
Here's a basic difference that hasn't been mentioned. Career Chief's academy vs. FDNY. In Westchester the class is made up of multiple departments so almost every topic is generalized because of the multitude of staffing and operational differences. For the FDNY everyone there is able to be ingrained with our procedures and way of doing business. We have the ability to be so much more specific. It's a big advantage. I'm sure since Yonkers does their own academies they realize the same benefits. For the most part my current colleagues have absolutely no concept how the rest of the world operates north of the city line.

City vs. Upstate.....
So I was an upstate guy and then became an FDNY guy so I have a unique perspective. First everyone's stories are anecdotal stories about tiny samplings so taking any of the generalizations to heart is silly. QTIP might be appropriate here.
Hurst Tool. We've come a long way I guess. Let's also remember there are more than 140 ladder companies with tools and due to differences in training and actual experience results will vary. I was lucky when I was a firefighter we seemed to go to nightly car fires (anyone else remember that?) Sanitation would tag the car and we would come back the next day and practice with the tool. It was great training. Now we go to junk yards pretty much whenever we want and drill.
Here's a basic difference that hasn't been mentioned. Career Chief's academy vs. FDNY. In Westchester the class is made up of multiple departments so almost every topic is generalized because of the multitude of staffing and operational differences. For the FDNY everyone there is able to be ingrained with our procedures and way of doing business. We have the ability to be so much more specific. It's a big advantage. I'm sure since Yonkers does their own academies they realize the same benefits. For the most part my current colleagues have absolutely no concept how the rest of the world operates north of the city line.

To answer the original question there is a Captain's Development Course that was originally 2 weeks, was 4 by the time I went, and might now be up to 5. About a week of it focuses on the job of Captain and the rest is all about preparing Captains to be Acting Battalion Chiefs.
The Battalion Chief's command course is now 8 or 9 weeks. There is a tremendous amount of material presented on a great number of topics.
There's a class for Deputies. It's relatively new and I'm not sure the length.

I don't know of any police departments ore highway departments that elect their supervisors. In one department that I collaborated with on some work with they had qualifications (which were not over the top), a written test (which I think was basic), scenarios, and interview. They used neighboring chiefs to grade scenarios and interviews. Seemed to be a very fair process. But a big difference is they're not changing things up every year. It didn't hurt that the chief has been there for a long time and is a strong extremely qualified leader.

They quit! Why?
1. Last time I checked this was a team sport! The success of an operation cannot and should not be determined by the actions of the few (or the individual). When a member constantly trains and studies, but is surrounded by novices who can't perform simple functions, he (or she) will be discouraged. It is hard to be proud of or confident in your organization or your team when you know exactly what needs to be done on the fireground and are prepared for every emergency, but everyone else doesn't. It is discouraging to consistently do your job exactly by the book and have every operation fail because no one else read it.
2. It is dangerous! To be a knowledgeable and aggressive firefighter is a good thing. However, when an individual is experience and talented but surrounded by novices, who can you count on to come to your aid when the s*** hits the fan. Instead, it hampers your ability because you have to be overcautious since no one else can keep up (or get scared) and no one can get you out should you get into trouble (it happens to the best of us!).
3. Frustration! It gets tiring to know exactly what needs to be done to resolve and incident but have other people consistently screw things up! You get tired of having ceilings pulled down on you; you get tired of waiting for water because your CPO can figure out how to pull the right levers; you get tired of having rooms flash when you are in them because your outside vent team doesn't know how to properly vent horizontally and introduces too much oxygen to the fire; you get tired of having no back-up man on the knob because the guy behind you couldn't find his gloves; you get tired of telling your crew to pull a 2 1/2 with a smooth bore and getting an 1 3/4 with a fog tip! After a while you just realize that they don't care and that you don't want to be a part of them anymore.
4. Ostracization! When you are part of the small minority that actually cares about training, firematics, and performace, but 46 of the other 50 members of the organization only care about parades and pancake dinners, then you become the a******! You are the guy who is always critiquing everyone; you are the guy who is always telling people how to improve; and you are the guy who takes things too seriously (after all "We are just volunteers!"). So even though all you want to do is teach others and improve the effectiveness of your department, you are always the a****** who is ruining the fork and knifers' good time and telling them that they are doing it wrong! So instead of moving up because you are the most well-trained, you are voted out and replaced with the head clown in the popularity contest that they call an election because everyone loves him!
Thats why they quit...

I don't know of any police departments ore highway departments that elect their supervisors. In one department that I collaborated with on some work with they had qualifications (which were not over the top), a written test (which I think was basic), scenarios, and interview. They used neighboring chiefs to grade scenarios and interviews. Seemed to be a very fair process. But a big difference is they're not changing things up every year. It didn't hurt that the chief has been there for a long time and is a strong extremely qualified leader.

What happens to members in these departments that try to concern themselves mostly with training and operations and don't attend parades?

What happens to members in these departments that try to concern themselves mostly with training and operations and don't attend parades?

This could be a fire where nothing much went wrong. Or it could be a fire where nothing at all went right. The outcome is that firefighters showed up to a well involved fire where residents had self-evacuated, could not make an interior attack, and performed surround-and-drown operations while they watched the building burn down. We don't know if they had 5 members show up or 50 members show up. We don't know if it took them 5 minutes or 25 minutes to arrive on scene. That was my whole problem with this article. It seems like this article is praising a group of individuals for unfavorable outcomes and potentially shoddy performance. "Great job showing up and watching a house burn down."
This gives the volunteer fire service, the residents, and the public a false (poor) sense of what is expected and what is favorable. The volunteers now know that they get a pat on the back regardless of whether or not the building is saved. The residents gain a false sense of security since the newspaper has just told them how great their local department is (that just allowed one of their neighbors houses to burn down without mounting a coordinated interior attack). The public now thinks that the volunteer fire service does a great job (when we all know that most volunteer departments are seriously lacking in manpower, training, and professionalism these days). I would imagine that this fire was not much different than the Vista helmet cam fire where everyone bashed them on this very website for their poor performance (we saw the article that they Huffington Post wrote about how great they were). This article is complete bullshit. Write an article when rescuers make a save. Not when a bunch of losers watch a house burn down.
Don't mistake me for a career firefighter who love to bash volunteers. I am not a career fire fighter and have never been one. I spent 10 years in the volunteer fire service as a Firefighter, Lieutenant, and Captain and quit because I believe that the volunteer fire service is a façade and a waste of taxpayer dollars where members are more concerned with social functions than they are with training and firematics.

As a fire instructor I had to again notice the push back from the chief who stated he only had to take a 60 hr course, and now it is 112 hrs. "Who wants to drive 2x a week to Carmel". It is thinking like that NY State is on the lower
end of FF-1 course hours. And that always leads to the Career vs Volunteer debate. The last class of recruits traveled 5x a week, 8 hrs a day, for 16 weeks. That is 640 Hrs. With the constant threat of failing out due to poor grades, or not being able to pass CPAT. 19 out of 20 that started finished. It isn't a game, it isn't about how many members your
dept has, it is about giving the customer the service that is expected from a group of people that raised their right hand a swore to protect to the best of their ability the life and property of the residents of their community. If we do nothing the fire will still go out. The ends don't justify the means. TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING AND DEDICATED MEMBERS.

You'd also be pretty upset when an ambulance doesn't show up at your emergency...

The problem with the SCBA facepieces was not that there was an issue of inferior workmanship. After a number of LODDs and serious injuries NIST did some investigation and determined that the tests that a facepiece required to pass NFPA certification were inferior to those that the rest of the PPE needed to pass. After some some hard work by NIST and their work with the NFPA committee the most recent SCBA standard (1981-2013) greatly increases the performance requirements of SCBA. All facepieces now being sold are compliant with the standard. The IAFC issued an alert on the subject a few years ago and recommended that fire departments budget to replace facepieces upon adoption of the new standard. I know some have done so.
Does this have anything to do with the most recent LODDs? Only time will tell.
What must be remembered is that even with the advancements in PPE in the last 40 years if you are in a flashover with even the best PPE you have less than 20 seconds. Gear is so good now that firefighters that have found themselves in some of these "flow-path" incidents have actually received fatal burn injuries inside their gear that did not degrade. The true weak link in the whole ensemble is the human inside the gear.
My personal opinion is our best defense is the smart firefighter that is able to understand the situation and match the strategy and tactics they employ with the situation they find.
Sorry if I sound like a broken record.

The problem with the SCBA facepieces was not that there was an issue of inferior workmanship. After a number of LODDs and serious injuries NIST did some investigation and determined that the tests that a facepiece required to pass NFPA certification were inferior to those that the rest of the PPE needed to pass. After some some hard work by NIST and their work with the NFPA committee the most recent SCBA standard (1981-2013) greatly increases the performance requirements of SCBA. All facepieces now being sold are compliant with the standard. The IAFC issued an alert on the subject a few years ago and recommended that fire departments budget to replace facepieces upon adoption of the new standard. I know some have done so.
Does this have anything to do with the most recent LODDs? Only time will tell.
What must be remembered is that even with the advancements in PPE in the last 40 years if you are in a flashover with even the best PPE you have less than 20 seconds. Gear is so good now that firefighters that have found themselves in some of these "flow-path" incidents have actually received fatal burn injuries inside their gear that did not degrade. The true weak link in the whole ensemble is the human inside the gear.
My personal opinion is our best defense is the smart firefighter that is able to understand the situation and match the strategy and tactics they employ with the situation they find.
Sorry if I sound like a broken record.

The problem with the SCBA facepieces was not that there was an issue of inferior workmanship. After a number of LODDs and serious injuries NIST did some investigation and determined that the tests that a facepiece required to pass NFPA certification were inferior to those that the rest of the PPE needed to pass. After some some hard work by NIST and their work with the NFPA committee the most recent SCBA standard (1981-2013) greatly increases the performance requirements of SCBA. All facepieces now being sold are compliant with the standard. The IAFC issued an alert on the subject a few years ago and recommended that fire departments budget to replace facepieces upon adoption of the new standard. I know some have done so.
Does this have anything to do with the most recent LODDs? Only time will tell.
What must be remembered is that even with the advancements in PPE in the last 40 years if you are in a flashover with even the best PPE you have less than 20 seconds. Gear is so good now that firefighters that have found themselves in some of these "flow-path" incidents have actually received fatal burn injuries inside their gear that did not degrade. The true weak link in the whole ensemble is the human inside the gear.
My personal opinion is our best defense is the smart firefighter that is able to understand the situation and match the strategy and tactics they employ with the situation they find.
Sorry if I sound like a broken record.