helicopper

McDonalds.

Locations around the world.

As several posters correctly point out, it was never a law. Merely an internal policy directed by the Governor, that could be (and was) recinded. Even when operating under that policy, there were numerous exceptions.

And it only applied to the State Police. Local agencies could continue to operate unmarked vehicles at their agency's discretion.

Right, but if you as the Fire District can't hire Instructors yourself to teach a class independent of the State/County, then there isn't even away to go around the state funding.

I believe that this IS an option if the county chooses to run additional courses. The departments could work at the county level to accomplish that according to the DHSES OFPC report.

Some interesting points from the report:

NYS has 1830 fire departments? That's crazy. Per capita, that's one fire department for every 9,500 people in the state (approximately).

But wait, NYC, has only one FD and the majority of the population. So backing that out it is really an entire fire department for every 5,200 people in the state (approximately). If each department has a budget of $100K, which is not a lot and probably captures a reasonable average between larger downstate departments and smaller, underfunded departments, the total cost of fire service in NYS is 183 MILLION dollars. And we still can't get a full response on every initial call. Wow!

Firefighter training and education is conducted for both career and volunteer fire departments throughout the state, serving approximately

100,000 firefighters in 1830 fire departments. This training is essential for safe and effective emergency response aimed at protecting the people,

property and environment in the State of New York.

Back to the original point of this thread.

Career firefighters must meet minimum basic and annual in-service training standards, pursuant to section

58-a of the Civil Service Law, section 209-w of the General Municipal Law and state firefighter training

standards contained in 19 NYCRR Parts 426 and 427.

If this sentence started without career, it would be a great line. Career FF have statutory minimum training despite all the AHJ and home rule comments made previously. It is definitely a double standard and should be fixed.

This is a fascinating thread and it is great to see such a discussion returning to EMTBravo.

One thing that piqued my interest is the issue of training availability and provision by local entities and/or fire districts. This link will take you to the OFPC report on training: http://www.dhses.ny.gov/ofpc/training/documents/2012-legislative-report.pdf

Of particular interest was (page 3):

IV - Supplemental Training

Twenty-five counties have opted to supplement the number of training courses conducted by OFPC using

local and county resources. These courses are conducted primarily for volunteer fire departments by

county fire instructors designated by the county fire coordinator. County fire instructors are authorized by

OFPC to deliver state fire training courses but are not state employees. Each county or fire department is

responsible for the costs associated with conducting these courses. Courses are scheduled in the same

manner as outreach training courses. OFPC anticipates that all supplemental training course requests for

2013 will be fulfilled.

It would appear that agencies can work with their county to provide additional training at the county's expense. If the county is unable or unwilling to provide funding for that training, the district could probably arrange with the county to provide officially sanctioned supplemental training that would meet everyone's needs.

Correct. the only requirement is IF you provide EMS, you must meet the minimum standards. But you do not have to provide EMS.

The Statute (General Municipal Law 122-:

§ 122-b. General ambulance services. 1. Any county, city, town or

village, acting individually or jointly, may provide an emergency

medical service, a general ambulance service or a combination of such

services for the purpose of providing prehospital emergency medical

treatment or transporting sick or injured persons found within the

boundaries of the municipality or the municipalities acting jointly to a

hospital, clinic, sanatorium or other place for treatment of such

illness or injury, and for that purpose may:

(a) Acquire by gift or purchase one or more motor vehicles suitable

for such purpose and supply and equip the same with such materials and

facilities as it may consider necessary for prehospital emergency

treatment, and may operate, maintain, repair and replace such vehicles

and such supplies and equipment;

( Contract with one or more individuals, municipal corporations,

associations, or other organizations, having sufficient trained and

experienced personnel, for operation, maintenance and repair of such

emergency medical service or ambulance vehicles and for the furnishing

of prehospital emergency treatment;

© Contract with one or more individuals, municipal corporations,

associations, or other organizations to supply, staff and equip

emergency medical service or ambulance vehicles suitable for such

purposes and operate such vehicles for the furnishing of prehospital

emergency treatment;

(d) Employ any combination of the methods authorized in paragraph (a),

( or ©;

(e) No contract shall be entered into pursuant to the provisions of

this section for the services of an emergency rescue and first aid squad

of a fire department or fire company which is subject to the provisions

of section two hundred nine-b of the general municipal law;

(f) Consider prehospital emergency treatment as that care provided by

certified emergency medical technicians or certified advanced emergency

medical technicians certified pursuant to the provisions of article

thirty of the public health law.

1-a. As used in this section:

(a) "Emergency medical technician" means an individual who meets the

minimum requirements established by regulations pursuant to section

three thousand two of the public health law and who is responsible for

administration or supervision of initial emergency medical assistance

and handling and transportation of sick, disabled or injured persons.

( "Advanced emergency medical technician" means an emergency medical

technician who has satisfactorily completed an advanced course of

training approved by the state council under regulations pursuant to

section three thousand two of the public health law.

2. Such municipality shall formulate rules and regulations relating to

the use of such apparatus and equipment in the provision of emergency

medical services or ambulance service and may fix a schedule of fees or

charges to be paid by persons requesting the use of such facilities.

Such municipalities may provide for the collection of such fees and

charges or may formulate rules and regulations for the collection

thereof by the individuals, municipal corporations, associations, or

other organizations furnishing service under contract as provided in

paragraph © of subdivision one of this section.

3. Such municipality may purchase or provide insurance indemnifying

against liability for the negligent operation of such emergency medical

service or ambulance service and the negligent use of other equipment or

supplies incidental to the furnishing of such emergency medical service

or ambulance service.

    4.  Such  municipality  may  provide  for   the   administration   and  coordination  of  such  emergency  medical  service or ambulance service  including  but  not  limited  to  operation  of  an  emergency   medical  communications system and medical control.    5.  Fire  districts, which, as part of a fire protection contract, may  provide general ambulance and/or emergency ambulance service pursuant to  section two hundred nine-b of this chapter and  article  thirty  of  the  public  health  law where a town or village has not designated itself as  the primary  provider  of  or  otherwise  contracted  for  an  emergency  ambulance, a general ambulance service, or a combination of such service  acting   individually   or  jointly,  may  contract  with  one  or  more  individuals,  municipal  corporations,  or  other  organizations  having  sufficient  trained  personnel, vehicles or combination of personnel and  vehicles suitable to provide prehospital emergency  treatment,  for  the  furnishing  of  supplemental  personnel,  equipment  or service to cover  instances or periods of  time  when  its  service  may  not  be  readily  available.

That video simply highlights the fact that we have no EMS system in Westchester. We have a patchwork of different agencies doing different things with different resources hoping for a positive outcome and despite the best intentions of the people involved, we are nowhere near a solution.

A comprehensive approach is needed to address the problem and institute a true system.

If the six villages in Greenburgh, as an example, continue operating on their own little islands, they will fail. The notion that Irvington will put on per diem personnel for 451 calls a year at a cost of $288 per shift is just not sustainable.

If the six villages all do that the cost is prohibitive. But a town-wide solution would be much more cost effective based on the call volume.

There was also a lot of misinformation in that presentation. "Private services do not do emergency care, they do transport only". Really? Other assertions about the law were questionable and hopefully someone reviews them for IVAC and the village board.

It also baffles me that anyone is still proposing that DPW or other municipal agencies provide drivers during the day instead of fixing the broken EMS system.

Like i said you are attacking little tiny points not seeing the big picture.

Then tell us what your point was in your comparison between Carrier Dome and Yankee Stadium.

I think we see the big picture quite clearly. You've had members with a cumulative century of experience responding but you think we're missing the point or not seeing the big picture.

You guys are attacking my wording rather than my concepts. I am not saying a brand new emt I did say to get experience but that could be the chief of a vac that only does like 3500 calls total a year.

I was trying to apply this concept :http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2Q7Mcot-xo4

I also said nothing much about the training and other than it would be shorter than the normal fdny*em's training. Of course there will be a field sup or fto I left that open and flexible because my focus is getting a number of well trained EMTs with the resources to be great and help the city.

The reason there are so many is because there isn't enough FDNY coverage. The only way they can be formed is if they do not affect the main providers bottom line by taking all their calls but there also must be a need. Also tell me how many are active and how many calls they do relative to how many are in their area. Also tell me if they are 911 certified by the FDNY if not they aren't up to the caliber.

I also did not want them to take old units from crews to give to the volunteers just to use what ever extras there are even if that just means an extra two buses per borough. You guys have the scale of this all wrong.

Not attacking you or your wording at all. Your concepts are flawed and that's what many members have been trying to share with you.

Why would the chief of a busy VAC want or need to volunteer in NYC?

Shorter training = cutting something that has been deemed important out? Why would anyone advocate that?

So now you need more supervisors and/or FTO's to oversee volunteers in the system? Why not use the supervisors and FTO's to staff more units themselves?

There isn't enough FDNY coverage because they have to look at the averages and staff according to what makes the most sense. Hot summer afternoons may tax that staffing level but you can't staff or budget based on "what if" scenarios.

Two extra buses per borough will not do much to reduce the backlog on most days. You could probably use 10 and still wind up waiting sometimes.

I do not think the rest of the EMTs in NYS are undertrained? Are the rest of the fire fighters undertrained as well? I am pretty sure the safest place to have a heart attack is the Carrier Dome not Yankee Stadium.

I'm not quite sure what your point is but Yankee Stadium has dedicated, contractual EMS personnel on site so they're not a drain on the 911 system during games.

The only issue is you really cannot control people at all and I know from experience that if you keep saying to save the ambulance for real emergencies you will have so many cases go under the cracks specifically things without any presenting symptoms but the person just doesn't feel right and will brush it off till their next appt. Unless there is something we can do on the operational or personnel there won't be a solution if we leave in the public hands.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you suggesting that every call for an ambulance be dispatched as a possible heart attack because they may not have symptoms yet?

That's why EMD was created. To appropriately triage calls even when the person calling doesn't know exactly what the problem is. Is it foolproof? No, but it's a lot better than sending ambulances screaming around for non-emergencies or missing a stroke because the caller didn't know how to describe it properly.

But in all honesty wouldn't you say that the zoo FDNY EMS is over trained because I can say that the only difference between nyc and anywhere else is volume and even everyone's emergency is heard and I rather an ambulance there that takes them tithe hospital for a fever than some kid breaking into a seizure in the back of a cab. Don't downplay people's emergencies because that cut in their finger could've been from a rusty nail and they can't afford a taxi to hospital it goes untreated and they get really sick.

If you really care about the people I am happy that I show up and check on someone with the most minor thing is on one hand it's another evaluation for me to do and being that EMTs can't diagnosis there can be endless things wrong with them.

I guarantee in systems like the FDNY the little guy gets over looked especially EDPs but everyone deserves to get checked out regardless of how subjective the injury bring that we should be objective parties. I fully support a quality component and I promise you I know it will work out. Because once it's done people will just deal with it and the public won't know the difference they will just be glad that someone came to their rescue.

The only difference is volume? On what are you basing this judgment? FDNY trains their personnel to respond to the multitude of hazards they may be confronted with. How many upstate agencies train EMS personnel for subway incidents, marine incidents, CBRN, manhole/confined space incidents, or the other incidents that NYC has to deal with? They also learn more about scene management, documentation, vehicle operations, and other things than your standard EMS course. The EMT certification may be the same but the orientation and field training is definitely NOT.

Nobody is downplaying anyone's emergency. NYC and most other places have a priority system to queue calls so appropriate resources are assigned as expeditiously as possible. EDP's get evaluated. They just don't get a priority higher than a cardiac, unconscious, diabetic, etc.

They won't be glad someone ill equipped to deal with their emergency showed up. They'll sue the city for sending them a unit that was not trained to the same standard as the other city units.

I am just applying the fact that many of the people on this forum and EMTs who started from the poop end of the stick to become the amazing knowledgeable EMS providers they are today. All EMTs right out of school should be able to handle any call. I am not saying execute it perfectly but they should be able to stabilize and transport and work with their partner to make sure there is not underlying issues.

I am not saying to lower the quality. I am saying take the ready and eager volunteer EMTs. Train them to you standard because they already spent 17 weeks learning how to save lifes and at least 36 hours on the road. I don't see how your concerns make this a bad idea because the majority of EMTs know their stuff we aren't looking for ER docs on the road just people who will volunteer their time to alleviate the system.

I'm not aware of any agency, from the "grand" FDNY EMS" to the "lowliest" VAC running 100 calls a year that puts a brand new EMT "right out of school" in charge of any call. Every agency has some kind of preceptor period where the fledgling EMT has the opportunity to stretch their new wings while under the supervision and guidance of a more experienced EMT while the ink on their card dries.

If you can't execute perfectly (your words), what standard are we striving for? Mediocrity? So-so? To accept and endorse a lower level of performance does the patient a great disservice and also increases your liability. We should be striving for MORE not advocating less!

If she weren't running for mayor, she wouldn't be complaining.

She might be complaining even if not running for mayor. The difference is nobody would listening.

What was most interesting in the study is the math.

It showed the two 3 member crews was not as effective as a 5 or 6 member crew. in other words 3 + 3 = 4.8

The study is from NIST who in 2010 did a study that if followed would consolidate most of Westchester. In the single family house fire study, they determined that a minimum crew size of 3ff/1off was better than smaller crews EVEN if it ment longer response times.

They actually determined the levels of toxic gas & heat when it was no longer survivable for victims and compared how the proper crew size that arrived later acctually had more time to rescue them & save property because they were so much more effecient in attacking the fire and rescuing the victims.

You mean this report?

http://www.nist.gov/manuscript-publication-search.cfm?pub_id=904607

There you go using science and facts to refute politics and emotion. When are you gonna learn!?!?!?

I'm pretty sure that FDNY, Yonkers, New Rochelle, and White Plains have all been saying this for a number of years. As their numbers have been reduced.

What is NYS up to now Tier 6?

Yes and supposedly there is a tier 7 in the works.

The anti-public sector sentiment and actions by our elected officials recently is definitely cause for alarm.

I pity those getting on the job now. They will have to work under deteriorating conditions; for many more years, to receive fewer benefits.

A dark day for the entire public sector statewide.

Would I use a booster for mass decon during a HazMat situation? Probably not, however depening on the situation where you may need to deploy a quick line to get into place for rinse down purposes if there are no proper decon "garden hoses" are in place, then I would pull the booster to fill the void until you can get the proper equipment in place. On a fireground, I would most definately utilize the line to rinse down and clean up. (Any yes, I have seen a pumper run out of usuable discharges a few times - again depends on the year, make, model and how the truck is set up.)

If you need to deploy quickly for mass decon, how about the deck gun/ladder pipe or initial attack hand-line? Mass decon wouldn't rely on garden hoses; you need copious/voluminous amounts of water for lots of people and you can't possibly get that from a booster line.

All the training I've ever been through was large bore, large volume, low pressure water to cover a large area for many people as quickly as possible. I just can't see a booster line being able to accomplish that effectively.

Is anyone really using a booster line for mass decon? Every set-up I've ever seen called for a whole lot more water than that. Generally BIG water.

The patch or badge (shield) doesn't make any difference. Case in point:

WAYNE COUNTY, Pa. — Daniel "JJ" Lomax was always willing to help.

So when the off-duty police officer and volunteer firefighter came across a car crash in Wayne County early Saturday morning, he stopped to assist. When he left his vehicle, he came into contact with downed power lines.

(Great Bend Police Image)

Officer Lomax was electrocuted and died at the scene. He was 55.

As news of his death spread through the communities where he worked as a part-time officer, and the fire departments where he volunteered, family, friends and colleagues said Officer Lomax died like he lived — by helping others.

"He always put others first in his book," said Matthew Pritchyk, first assistant chief for the Scott Twp. Hose Company. "He was always looking out for others."

Officer Lomax, of Factoryville, served as deputy chief for the fire department, and also volunteered in Factoryville and for the Meredith Hose Company in Childs. He worked as a part-time police officer for departments in Mayfield, Forest City and Great Bend.

On Saturday at about 3:10 a.m., Officer Lomax came upon the scene of the accident on Sawmill Road in Salem Twp., about 1 1/2 miles west of Route 191. Details on the crash Officer Lomax stopped for were unavailable Saturday. The Wayne County coroner's office has ruled Officer Lomax's death accidental.

And considering the anti-government sentiment that is so pervasive today (especially in California) wearing a billboard that says "not a government employee" may actually be a GOOD idea.

Considering the variations of uniforms and marking of vehicles this is not shocking or entirely a surprise. It takes it to a bit of an extreme but we always seem to give the critics ammunition for moves like this.

In some areas, if PD had to "time they're arrival" with FD or EMS, they'd have to drive the length of the city 30 times over. Remember, no matter the hour, we don't have to wake up, assemble, muster, respond, etc. We are already out there. No matter the on going criticism from our FD "brethren", we most likely will continue to evaluate each situation on a case by case basis, and make informed decisions when the benefit outweighs the risks, and when it doesn't. I'd bet my salary for the next ten years if those cops stayed outside and that guy died, and he was your brother/father/son, etc, you'd have those cops skewered on this forum.

And in the courts of public opinion, New York State and the Southern District.

I go back to my original question: was this dispatched as a CO emergency or simply a medical emergency? Did the officers know that the car was running in the garage all night when they got there?

What they knew and didn't know at the time is a big factor in reviewing this call. "Keyboard experts"? Just a lot of questions and discussion. What's the problem with that?

If this had been a robery/hostage situation and 2 off-duty firefighters ran in and rescued the hostages without incident, would we call the firefighters Heros? Pat them on the back and say "Atta boy"?

Sadly they treated an off-duty, out of district FF as a hero and gave him awards for jumping off the TZ Bridge after witnessing a woman attempt suicide. He was battered and unconscious and needed to be rescued himself but he was still treated like a hero. Personally, I think he should have gotten a 72 hour evaluation at the Behavioral Health Center but that's just me. We very often pat people on the back and say good job even when it wasn't.