Danger

Where is the Journal News going ?
HOPEFULLY OUT OF BUISNESS FOR GOOD !!!!!

I just can't understand how people can continue to think that just because they are volunteer they deserve special treatment. As if cardiac arrest and fire spread decide to stop the clock to give you time to go through three dispatches and 5 minutes to drive from home to get the rig. Three minute response time is very reasonable if you sit in the building that the big red trucks and big white boxes are in, I know this because I do this. Maybe the local VAC should. Maybe if the VAC guys don't wanna do this, they should consolidate with the other 13 VACs in town or hire people.

I just can't understand how people can continue to think that just because they are volunteer they deserve special treatment. As if cardiac arrest and fire spread decide to stop the clock to give you time to go through three dispatches and 5 minutes to drive from home to get the rig. Three minute response time is very reasonable if you sit in the building that the big red trucks and big white boxes are in, I know this because I do this. Maybe the local VAC should. Maybe if the VAC guys don't wanna do this, they should consolidate with the other 13 VACs in town or hire people.

I just can't understand how people can continue to think that just because they are volunteer they deserve special treatment. As if cardiac arrest and fire spread decide to stop the clock to give you time to go through three dispatches and 5 minutes to drive from home to get the rig. Three minute response time is very reasonable if you sit in the building that the big red trucks and big white boxes are in, I know this because I do this. Maybe the local VAC should. Maybe if the VAC guys don't wanna do this, they should consolidate with the other 13 VACs in town or hire people.

It's a little bulky, but the Mini 5 is remarkably easy to program with free software and a $10 cable from ebay. I can't set the time on my microwave but I was able to reprogram a M5 with four completely different settings for two different FDs in under 60 seconds my first time trying.

It's a little bulky, but the Mini 5 is remarkably easy to program with free software and a $10 cable from ebay. I can't set the time on my microwave but I was able to reprogram a M5 with four completely different settings for two different FDs in under 60 seconds my first time trying.

When I sing in the shower each morning I am striving for the same goals as is Bono from U2...when I shoot hoops in my driveway I am striving for the same goals as Larry Byrd did in his time...when I decide where to invest in my extremely meager retirement accounts I am striving for the same goals as Warren Buffet...so far despite all my striving and good intentions, my results have not been the equivalent of theirs...

Southland has been picked up for another season with 10 episodes.

So, basically the comments about who did what first is what matters? Tradition and history dicate our roles, not what our community currently needs? Barbers used to do minor surgery, like remove tonsils? Since they were doing it first, should we send a patient with a tonilectomy to a barber because they were doing it "first"?
Is the standard nationwide nowadays for Fire Departments to handle motor vehicle extrications? When I worked Empress in the late 90's,WCPD ESU was still active and doing extrications....however it was only one officer and no protective gear. Yonkers ESU did a fantastic job at extrication. But what happens if ESU is tied up on a pin job and a hostage situtation comes in?
Rescue can be a combined function, but when you have two "competing" teams in one municpality, plus a third county provided service, then that's a waste.
And correction, University Of Medicine And Dentistry New Jerey EMS, in the City of Newark, provides Extrication, not Jersey City.
I always thought that ESU were SWAT trainined I guess I was wrong.
Given the vast array of infastructure and population density in the northeast, that plays into factor as well for more trained and equipped resources.
What if firefighters were trained to be police officers and carry weapons and make arrests, to help out the PD? Should we train everyone to be a Police Officer-Firefighter-Paramedic so we're all on the same level?
There are A LOT of differences between Law Enforcement in NY and TX.
I have nothing against cops, I just see a big difference in law enforcement, and I thought it would be an intersting discussion. I meant no offense to anyone. You want to give me a negative rep point for my opinion and point of view because it differs from yours?
I give up, I meant for this to be a compartive discussion of law enforcement roles in different parts of the country, but it got all skewed. But this discussion validated what I thought...it is different.

It doesn't matter about the cops. The Arson Investigators are highly trained and equipped to handle these very specialized types of cases in Houston. They give everything they've found over to the DA, and they (the DA's) are the ones who really pilot the case. If Houston PD has investigated, when it went to trial, the evidence wouldn't have been so strong. It's been proven that arson cases investigated by arson investigators, whether PD, FD, or private- however your municpality laws read.....have a generally higher conviction rate then those investigated by regular detectives or homicide detectives. There's really no reason to turn it over to the PD unless there was an unrelated crime.
However, they do work WITH the ATF and FBI on arson cases

I've been a Law Enforcement Dispatcher in NY, and a Texas certified Law Enforcement Dispatcher here in Texas with a large urban police department, working the busiest sector. My father was a police officer and ran a police supply store, so growing up I was always around "old school" Police Officers who couldn't imagine todays world. And a large number of my friends are Police Officers. And, as a citizen, I'd rather have a police officer here ASAP if I got robbed, instead of having them delayed because they are duplicating the services of the FD. And the taxes I pay for PD are to keep my family safe. I pay taxes for the FD and EMS to provide their services. Where I used to live, a lot of the time, the cops were tied up doing EMS and the rest trying to fill in the gaps. Down here, I can't leave my house and go anywhere without seeing a police officer on patrol.
Not just here, but other places I have visited, i.e. Los Angeles, where "ESU" has another name...SWAT.
Exactly.
But why do they have to be cross trained if there is already an agency providing the service? Unless it enhances manpower for that agency.
Why is it healthy? All I've seen it do is breed hate and ego.
Agree, but shouldn't be that way. Your agency should get funding based on it's core responsibilities, not just duplicate services to get grant money and waste it. All and all, these grants don't come from anywhere. They come out of our taxes.
I can see Law Enforcement doing Search and Rescue and other types of rescue related to policing, but don't duplicate FD services.
VERY true. But Cops want to do cop stuff, and firefighters want to do fire stuff. Cops can grow into and do all sorts of fun Law Enforcement things like SWAT, Aviation, Marine, Detectives, K-9, Crime Scene, Instructors, Community Policing, etc etc. Firefighters can go onto be officers, work specialized units, arson investigation, fire prevention, intructors, etc. All of which keeps the respective jobs hands full. And cops use grants to buy cop stuff, and firefighters use grants to buy firefighter stuff. As I said, it's a very different mentality. I don't understand anymore why there is such competition to fill each other's roles when there is enough to do already.
Another example is internal with PD's. County PD has a large number of resources and experts to offer agencies, but yet some departments still feel the need to duplicate their specialized services.
I love cops, I love firefighters, it's just a breath of fresh air down here to see a cop actually loving being a cop and nothing else.It refreshing to hear a cop say "Let's hang around the house of this guy with a warrant....see if he shows up....informant said he's been coming and going lately" instead of "Let's take in that rescue call".

Having lived in Austin, Texas for over three years now after living in Hartsdale, NY for 28, and having worked with law enforcement agencies in both areas, I've noticed something.
THIS IS IN NO WAY A KNOCK AT POLICE OFFICERS, JUST MY OPINION AND OBSERVATION
Down here, cops want to be cops. They want to go out and make arrests, do felony stops, nab DWI and aggresive drivers, etc. They go out and find work, or are dispatched to it-work is plentiful. They follow up with previous victims, and take pride in the sector they work, and knowing it well. They'll help the FD when needed, but they don't duplicate any services. In fact, they get along quite well in most jurisdictions. Most have no interest in firefighting or doing anything the FD's doing. In fact, most people pursue either a law enforcement, EMS, or FD career. People just don't take tests until they are offered something.
It seems like Police Officers in NYC Metro area want to be into everything. Several muncipalities not only have ESU, but some have technical rescue teams, etc. Now, given the infastructure in NY, that's no a bad thing. But someone, seemingly an ESU officer, make some observations about a recent rope rescue Yonkers FD was involved in, which led me to thinking.
I believe STRONGLY in the ESU concept, however I think they should be more focused on tactical operations and supporting other law enforcement endeavors then tying themselves up with what the FD's already doing. These are highly trained police officers, with special equipment. Why tye them up on something the FD is already doing, and why is it a competition? Why are there more officers interested in getting rope certification then assualt rifle certification? Why aren't there more officers assigned to Hudson River patrols? ESU does a great job, but they should really be there for law enforcement work. I mean, I could understand having to rapell to get to a suicide victim or for SWAT purposes, but for rescuing stranded workers from a ledge...that's what the firefighters signed up to do.
Which leads me to wonder, why in the northeast, with less police officers, funding being cut, and crime rising, would officers want to deal with things beyond the law enforcement scope? Why would they want to direct funding towards equipment the FD already has and duplicate services? I know a lot is grant-funded, but if you don't need it let it go to someone who does. I think money would be better spent on having more K-9 units.
Why do officers down here have such a focused law enforcement different mentality, and in NY they want to do everything? I don't see firefighters wanting guns and handcuffs. Cops should be proud and excited that they are cops, and should take every bad guy off the streeet they can.
In certain situations, PD should work with FD, like in HazMat situations. And in certain places, like NYPD's Transit Bureau, should have confined space training, since going into tunnels to shoo them of transients and patrol, is part of their job.
Again, this is not a knock at LEO's, this does not apply to all LEO's, just some comparitive thoughts. I think cops in both areas do a great job at whatever they are assigned to do, I just see such a profound difference from down here to up there.

Why even have an extended bumper on a truck company apparatus? My opinion, unless it is set up as a quint so that a front trash line can be installed, to cut down on the overall length on truck company apparatus, there is really no need for an overly extended front bumper. I can see maybe if the truck is set up for extrication purposes to have a hydraulic line, even an air line off the front bumper. With truck company apparatus being up to 40 or more feet long, you would want to cut down what is in front of you for the sake of a proper turning radius (meaning shortening the front end for easier maneuverability). But that is my view.

This is shameful, but it's what I have come to expect from today's GOP. Politicians like the wimpy, cry baby Rep. John Boehner who have no respect for Cops, Firefighters or the military. He's never placed himself in harm's way to protect his country or another human being. He stood with the GOP when they held The Zadroga 9/11 Health and Compensation Bill hostage while demanding that Democrats join the GOP in extending tax breaks for the wealthiest 2% of Americans. After getting the tax breaks for their wealthy corporate campaign supporters, they subsequently cut the funding for Zadroga in half before passing it. BTW, Rep. John Boehner didn't even stay in Washington to vote on the final bill which occurred on December 22nd, 2010. He along with many other GOP rich kids had already gone home to celebrate Christmas with their families. I wonder what it feels like to walk away from your responsibilities as an elected public servant whenever you feel like it, leaving your work undone. As a Firefighter, I wouldn't know that feeling, nor did I ever have the desire to abandon my responsibilities for my personal enjoyment ... Rep. John Boehner is a disgrace.
Thank you for your service to our country Mr. Buckles ... May you rest in peace ...

Its kind of sad that we have to "negotiate" for minimum staffing. Doesn't the Dept and the municipality have the responsibility of providing that to the community and if they acually did, there would be no reason to "negotiate".
BTW I put "negotiate" in quotes, because in NYS it is a non-mandatory item (meaning if either side says we are not talking about it then its off the table).
ps. I think there is another term for "non-mandatory", but cant remember what it is.

I've just finished reading the book "Triangle" which is, obviously, the story of this fire. But, the book begins with a look at the social conditions in NYC that led up to the fire and summarizes the legal impacts and development of unions and fire codes that were implemented as a result of this fire. It was a good book. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in 1) fire history or/or 2) US social & labor history.

This is a good idea. Video can be a great training tool. A video such as this of a structure prior to FD arrival presents an excellent opportunity to discuss strategy and tactics without second guessing another department.
In response to scenario #1, I will offer the following: (I will detail what my actions would be as the first engine officer given the resources available as per the scenario- if this fire occured in my own department we would have more manpower available and thus certain things would be done differently).
1. Give a quick size-up via radio and call for more help.
2. If a hydrant is within 50 feet, order the driver to hook up to it. A competent driver should be able to get water from a hydrant within 50 feet of the rig and charge a handline. This is not ideal of course but we need to work with what we have.
If a hydrant is further away than that, radio the second engine that they will need to secure a hydrant and feed us.
3. Leave room for the truck in front as usual but this fire will not require the use of master streams. Neither will we need aerial or tower ladder to reach the roof.
4. Order the other firefighter to stretch a 1 3/4" handline to the front door and wait for me there.
5. Go around back for a quick look. As I am doing that I would question any people in the area as to whether anyone was inside. Don't waste a lot of time doing this but do ask the question. Oftentimes people will remain mute until asked and once asked will say, something like, "yes, there are two children in a back bedroom, etc." If someone says yes, there are people inside, take a quick moment to ask how they know this, how many people,and where they are located. Sometimes bystanders have this information also but do not volunteer it until asked. Of course, use your judgement in deciding how credible any info. you receive might be.
During this walk, check for a basement and make sure the fire did not start there. It is very important to not be above the fire unless you know you are. This particular home seems to be built on a slab with no basement but always discipline yourself to check for this.
Is this building truss construction? Maybe, but doubtful. Look at the windows. I believe they are an older, aluminum frame type.
6. On the way back to the front give another quick report by radio to the incoming companies as to what you have and what you want from them. Truck should be doing a search. Second engine should be securing a water supply if not already done by your driver, and second engine should also be stretching a backup line.
7. Take the line in the front door and head for the interior door to the garage. You do not need to wait for a FAST team to be assembled as there is a potential life hazard. In any event, another engine and the truck should be there by now or in another minute, as per the scenario information. Be agressive but cautious. Keep in mind that your company is undermanned, that you might only be working off the tank, that the wind is blowing toward you, the fire may be in the attic, etc. All of these things are concerns but no reason not to initiate an interior attack.
8. Put the fire out. At this point I will take some time to explain...several others in this thread have stated that this fire should be an exterior attack, or that 2 1/2" should be stretched. In my opinion,, neither is correct. The amount of fire showing can certainly be knocked down with an adequately supplied 1 3/4" handline. 2 1/2" is too much to handle for a 2 man hose team anyway. Putting some water on this fire is the best thing we can do to save anyone who may still be inside.
It appears that the main body of fire is in the garage. It may be in the living area of the house too, and also in the attic. You will find out if fire is in the main part of the house when you enter with the line.Hopefully you have a thermal imager. If so, use it to scan the attic and the rest of the house. Before advancing far, check the upper levels of the room for heat and listen for crackling. Do not pass fire. Get the truck inside with you to complete the search and open the ceilings to check for fire in the attic as soon as possible.
Oh, if you encounter any occupants inside, remove them....
***Some of the things in this post which may raise some disagreement are my decisions to make an interior attack with this much fire showing; to enter without a FAST team assembled; to make the attack potentially on booster tank water; to use a 1 3/4" handline***
I acknowledge in advance that these actions may seem controversial to some in the fire service not because they should be, but simply because I am aware of the way many of us think.
OK. I took a few minutes to respond to this type of thread which I usually don't. Can I go back to bashing vollies now????

I guess the truth really hurts some of you guys.
I speak based on the irresponsible actions of the local chiefs and assistants with ghost lettering on their vehicles. Maybe south of here the Chiefs drive with respect and decency... But then again, I have seen plenty of Chiefs from Westchester, Rockland and Putnam drive around erratically with the lights and sirens blaring at the HVVFA shows 100 miles out of their response area, so maybe not.
Ghost lettering and blue LEDs on fire apparatus wasn't important to have until the cops got it. All of a sudden, everyone has to have it and it apparently has nothing to do with the police having it?
If you don't think I should be a moderator because I have an opinion that is different from yours, I am more than happy to give it up. However, I won't give up my opinion.

Arlington FD, Ex Rescue 3252, Replaced by the 2010 Ferrara Inferno.. 1988(1989?) Mack MC 250/250/0. Ex FDNY R3

Arlington FD 2010 Ferrara Inferno .. j/n=H4457 Heavy Rescue. No Pump..

SPH 100

You can have a ladder truck, a brush truck, a rescue truck, but that is an engine

That's an engine not a truck.

http://www.10-75.net/apparatus/ny/albanycnty/albany/afd/apparatus.htm

The rhetoric that is coming out from the lawyers and this guys family is ridiculous. The DA says that bonita zelman who is the attorney for the other players who were arrested that night called the lead detectives and said that unless the charges against her clients were dropped they wouldn't speak to investigators about the shooting. Zelman now denies this but i firmly believe this happened and the reason i believe this is that she is a low ball lawyer who saw dollar signs at the outset of this thing and figured that she could get her mug in front of the cameras and shame the DA's office into dropping the charges which isn't going to happen so now she is in way over her head and she is panicing and trying to make threats to get her clients out of trouble. If it can be proven that she made this statement then that is a matter for the NYS bar association to deal with as a possible misconduct issue.
The next topic is henry sr. who was on news 12 saying that the charges against the other players should be dropped because they were only trying to help his son ..... help his son how by breaking the window of a store ?? I don't remember ever reading about breaking a window out of anger as being a recognized part of first aid. The rest of the people were arrested for dis con/resisting, and I ask again, how was that trying to help dj henry. After the shooting dj henry was a prisoner of the police on scene which means that nobody should have been going near him except PD/EMS/FD.
Then we have michael sussman who proved himself to be a huge opportunist during the Yonkers desegragation case and now he is proving to be nothing more than that now. He is alledging that the ME's office fabricated the tox results because it contradicts witness statements from that night ... this fool would try to have us believe alcohol / marijuana and God knows what else fueled college students instead of a highly educated team of doctors and scientists... sorry mr sussman but NO.
The bottom line is that everyone involved on the henry side is grasping at straws becuause they know that they don't have a leg to stand on anymore. Any public opinion they had on their side is now gone - and shame on anyone who took their side to begin with.
During this whole thing we must keep the most important thing in mind and that is the officers involved. I have said it before in this thread and I will say it again, these cops were forced to respond the way they did because of dj henrys actions, the fault with this entire situation is on dj henry.