nfd2004

Did this study ALSO look at the direct cost of "property damage and insurance claims" ? If not, somebody pays for that as the result of not having on duty career firefighters. Actually, my guess is that WE ALL pay for that through our homeowners insurance premiums.
 
Did this study look into the ISO (Insurance Services Office) ratings and insurance cost ? There could be a significant difference in what is paid by home owners, particularly businesses. A business served by a Class 1 fire department will be able to save a significant amount on their fire insurance payments versus a place with perhaps a Class 4 or higher number rating (Class 1 the BEST, Class 10 the WORST). Of course one of the main concerns is water supply. A city with good water mains generally does very well.
 
 Just as a comparison, in Connecticut there are THREE Class 1 Fire Departments, Hartford, New Haven and Milford, Ct. All have a good water supply and that gets high marks. However, all are also served by fully career fire departments.
 
   In the earlier thread of "A Fractured Fire Service Norwich, Ct", that city generally has a good water supply, except for one small area. That city is given a Class 4 rating. Part of the city served by a career fire department and the other part of the city served by five separate volunteer departments.
 
  The difference between Milford, Ct and Norwich, Ct is about 10,000 people more in Milford. However, for the same business to operate, the price for insurance coverage would be quite a difference. Maybe an interesting point to consider when paying your tax bill, how much actually goes to the fire dept, and paying your homeowners insurance bill.

Yes it has , I have shots of it coming in the show last night

 
I'm sure the senior citizen that owns it will gladly accept monetary assistance and volunteer labor
 

This video does a good job of showing what commonly happens when a house is on fire in an area not protected by a full time staff of on duty firefighters. By the time the fire department arrives, there's no home left to save.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW70mP_bbfo
 

 
  Thank you very much for that report.
 
1) Great news that so far, FOUR of those laid off Port Chester Firefighters have been hired, with Four more to go. I wish them all the Best of Luck in their NEW Careers.
 
2) We now see there are Four LESS positions that could have been offered to Volunteer Firefighters from Port Chester. A price a few of those younger volunteer firefighters might not have ever thought about. And there still could be some place willing to hire four other fully trained, laid off career firefighters as well. Guess these places didn't look at them as "Fired Firefighters" as somebody once said here.
 
3) An overall INCREASE in response time now. One thing that was never brought up when these Eight Port Chester Firefighters were laid off was what is called "Lead Time". That is the time it takes to get the first piece of fire apparatus on the scene. That "lead time" now has increased. When the day comes that some innocent victim is chocking on some smoke and can't get out, "that's when it will really count". Perhaps an investigation should be done and matters corrected BEFORE such an event happens.
 
4) To the Captains of Rescue 40 and Engine 63, "I salute you". Your true courage to stand up for what is right is respected by everyone of us who can see beyond this smoke screen. And to the members who are walking away, you lead the way in showing everyone of us, just what this Brotherhood thing is all about. My guess is that there are many other places who would GLADLY appreciate your services to their community. I encourage you to do so. As a Retired Brother Firefighter, serving 5 years a Volunteer and 30 years as a Career member, "I THANK YOU" for what you've done. As well as THOUSANDS of others I'm sure.

 
  Thank you very much for that report.
 
1) Great news that so far, FOUR of those laid off Port Chester Firefighters have been hired, with Four more to go. I wish them all the Best of Luck in their NEW Careers.
 
2) We now see there are Four LESS positions that could have been offered to Volunteer Firefighters from Port Chester. A price a few of those younger volunteer firefighters might not have ever thought about. And there still could be some place willing to hire four other fully trained, laid off career firefighters as well. Guess these places didn't look at them as "Fired Firefighters" as somebody once said here.
 
3) An overall INCREASE in response time now. One thing that was never brought up when these Eight Port Chester Firefighters were laid off was what is called "Lead Time". That is the time it takes to get the first piece of fire apparatus on the scene. That "lead time" now has increased. When the day comes that some innocent victim is chocking on some smoke and can't get out, "that's when it will really count". Perhaps an investigation should be done and matters corrected BEFORE such an event happens.
 
4) To the Captains of Rescue 40 and Engine 63, "I salute you". Your true courage to stand up for what is right is respected by everyone of us who can see beyond this smoke screen. And to the members who are walking away, you lead the way in showing everyone of us, just what this Brotherhood thing is all about. My guess is that there are many other places who would GLADLY appreciate your services to their community. I encourage you to do so. As a Retired Brother Firefighter, serving 5 years a Volunteer and 30 years as a Career member, "I THANK YOU" for what you've done. As well as THOUSANDS of others I'm sure.

 
The only problem has been from those with a fear of change from past practice. There are many on both sides of this equation that suffer from a lack of exposure to other and much larger systems and are often consumed with only accepting things being done as they witnessed solely within the confines of the Stamford system.
 
Since the operational and reorganization changes that first started with the formation of Engine 7 in 1997, I can recall those that were quick to scream that the sky would fall if this or that happened....
 
To my knowledge, the sky has not fallen...yet. In Stamford's case, quick change occurs slowly, but with the finalization of this contract, many new changes will occur to the Stamford fire service. 

 
  Thank you very much for that report.
 
1) Great news that so far, FOUR of those laid off Port Chester Firefighters have been hired, with Four more to go. I wish them all the Best of Luck in their NEW Careers.
 
2) We now see there are Four LESS positions that could have been offered to Volunteer Firefighters from Port Chester. A price a few of those younger volunteer firefighters might not have ever thought about. And there still could be some place willing to hire four other fully trained, laid off career firefighters as well. Guess these places didn't look at them as "Fired Firefighters" as somebody once said here.
 
3) An overall INCREASE in response time now. One thing that was never brought up when these Eight Port Chester Firefighters were laid off was what is called "Lead Time". That is the time it takes to get the first piece of fire apparatus on the scene. That "lead time" now has increased. When the day comes that some innocent victim is chocking on some smoke and can't get out, "that's when it will really count". Perhaps an investigation should be done and matters corrected BEFORE such an event happens.
 
4) To the Captains of Rescue 40 and Engine 63, "I salute you". Your true courage to stand up for what is right is respected by everyone of us who can see beyond this smoke screen. And to the members who are walking away, you lead the way in showing everyone of us, just what this Brotherhood thing is all about. My guess is that there are many other places who would GLADLY appreciate your services to their community. I encourage you to do so. As a Retired Brother Firefighter, serving 5 years a Volunteer and 30 years as a Career member, "I THANK YOU" for what you've done. As well as THOUSANDS of others I'm sure.

Did this study ALSO look at the direct cost of "property damage and insurance claims" ? If not, somebody pays for that as the result of not having on duty career firefighters. Actually, my guess is that WE ALL pay for that through our homeowners insurance premiums.
 
Did this study look into the ISO (Insurance Services Office) ratings and insurance cost ? There could be a significant difference in what is paid by home owners, particularly businesses. A business served by a Class 1 fire department will be able to save a significant amount on their fire insurance payments versus a place with perhaps a Class 4 or higher number rating (Class 1 the BEST, Class 10 the WORST). Of course one of the main concerns is water supply. A city with good water mains generally does very well.
 
 Just as a comparison, in Connecticut there are THREE Class 1 Fire Departments, Hartford, New Haven and Milford, Ct. All have a good water supply and that gets high marks. However, all are also served by fully career fire departments.
 
   In the earlier thread of "A Fractured Fire Service Norwich, Ct", that city generally has a good water supply, except for one small area. That city is given a Class 4 rating. Part of the city served by a career fire department and the other part of the city served by five separate volunteer departments.
 
  The difference between Milford, Ct and Norwich, Ct is about 10,000 people more in Milford. However, for the same business to operate, the price for insurance coverage would be quite a difference. Maybe an interesting point to consider when paying your tax bill, how much actually goes to the fire dept, and paying your homeowners insurance bill.

Pete, I will agree that neither side really wants integration. That being said integration is probably the only option that contains any long term survival for the volunteers. One does not need to look very far from home to see other communities that have dealt with similar issues. The solutions are there for the taking. One side effect that any integration plan will have is fleet reduction (call it consolidation if you want) because 1 department will need far less duplication than 6 departments ever did.
 
I will disagree on one point. I think the volunteers will have a voice in their own destiny. However that is probably not the voice of the current leadership, which seem to be divided into two camps: 1) Fight to the death over minutia and 2) total capitulation for its own sake. I do not think either camp is right. If you see each individual issue as a battle, the old adage of choosing ones battles wisely comes into play. They need to decide what is worth fighting for and what is not, which oddly enough is similar to the union negotiating process.
 
As for the scales being weighted to the union, yes they are. However I don't blame the union for this. The VFD's over the years created a system where non response became the rule not the example. There were many factors that contributed to this, too many to list here. Some are systemic and not specific to Stamford by a long shot. The fact of the matter is that adapting back to a response norm is proving difficult. I think the saving grace will be new members who did not know the old system, because the dinosaurs are just sitting in their tar pits waiting to become fossils.

Update - The Firefighter's contract was passed by the Board of Representatives tonight with a vote of 20 in agreement and 4 abstentions. 

Pete, I hate to sound like an extremist, but many (such as yourself) have invested time and personal capital to try and prevent this type of continued behavior and hostility.
 
To try and sabotage a negotiation that has taken more than 5 years for the Union to reach is nothing short of a "nuclear" sized mistake on the part of these 5 "chiefs".
 
I am not surprised that a couple of these people would continue to fan the flames in Stamford, but having all 5 take part appears to be a collective effort by all remaining volunteers.
 
Disagreements over each departments operations, tactics, hose lays, policies, vehicle colors, etc. are understandable within the fire service....attempting to affect the livelihood of the families of 280 union members is inexcusable and something that will not fade with time.
 
If the volunteer Chiefs wanted to unite Stamford career firefighters behind one common enemy for many, many years to come, they will have finally succeeded at something. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Sounds like a real cluster F***!!!! I guess that you get what you pay for. Try to save money by trying to privatize a service a public service does not always work out well.

I find it interesting that Stamford volunteers that can't find common ground for issues such as joint-training, accountability, staffing, radio procedures, etc; but always seemed to form a concrete bond and unite whenever the City, Union, or City Fire Department can be attacked.
 
Volunteer firefighters wiring a letter against a tentative agreement after it has been reached in good faith between the City and the Union....
 
The same volunteers then go on to create a telephone campaign to City Representatives to spread more fear and lies about this agreement????
 
I have often read here how volunteers are often unfairly attacked by the big bad IAFF or how the IAFF has these (special pamphlets) that encourage hostility toward volunteers (ALL BS).
 
Yet, here is a glaring and very tangible example of another case were a handful of pathetic volunteer Fire Chiefs have attempted to affect the livelihoods of more than 280 union firefighters. Much like Port Chester, jealousy appears to be the number one value being promoted by some of these organizations. 
 
I can think of no more clear example of why the term "RIVAL ORGANIZATION" exists.
 
Regardless of what action occurs from the Stamford Board of Representatives, the damage done by these 5 clowns will assure an epic fissure will exist between career and volunteers in Stamford. For these 5 ninnies have managed to instantly erode any chance for cohesion within the system. Something that I suspect they knew full well when concocting their letter.
 
 
 
 

I do not know all the details, but there is enough information in the story to state this is nothing more than a pizzing match.
Once the adults involved realize this, this can be easily solved by those involved.
Anyone who has kids has dealt with similar situations.
But, what are the chances the departments or the local politicians will actually work this out?
If the local press pushes it, they may be forced to find the solution, otherwise this will continue.

Becoming a career firefighter requires an individual to be in peak physical condition. A firefighter can go from zero to 100 miles an hour in a matter of minutes. A normal heart rate increases even BEFORE any physical work is required. The physical work is heavy and very demanding in that it must be done to perhaps save a life.
 
 Most career firefighters will tell you how rewarding that job can be. But their families can't tell you about the worries they have while their loved ones go out there to do that job. Unless you've done it, it is really hard to relate how difficult this job can be.
 
 In order to become a career firefighter there are many test to pass. Generally, just passing is NOT enough. Only the highest scorers are chosen.
 
 Once an individual is lucky enough to get that job, citizens from young and old, black or white, along with each of his co workers (called Brothers and Sisters) must depend on his training and skills. They must also depend on his physical ability to perform these physically demanding skills.
 
  Here is New London, Ct Firefighter "Johnny T" as he shows us one aspect of the job and what it takes to be a firefighter.
 
 

A similar study was done in PA several years ago with a similarly "large savings" attributed to the volunteers.  Unfortunately, the study had some significant flaws, but it is still mentioned from time to time.
 
As I recall, some of those were.......
 
A large part of the "savings" was in salary costs, but the way they determined and sold it was flawed.  It was described as the cost to replace all of the volunteers with career personnel, but it didn't fully take into account some important factors.  They essentially took the number of people on the rosters of the volunteer departments and multiplied it by a per-capita cost.  So, to replace X number of volunteers with X number of career firefighters would cost Y.
 
Anyone who knows much about the volunteer fire service in PA should be able to see the problem with that.  For those unfamiliar, many VFD/VFCs over report their membership numbers.  Rosters can include life members (retired volunteers), social members, associcate members and so on and not accurately reflect the true number of active members who are trained and routinely responding to calls.  I've seen ones where they have 100 on the roster, but only 20-25% actually respond to calls to some extent.
 
Additionally, we have a number of areas which have way more individual fire stations/VFCs than are necessary.  For example, my department covers a small city of just over 5 sq mi with 2 stations (down from 4 in its prime) operating 4 large apparatus and 3 support type vehicles.  A nearby group of 3 communities that comprise a school district collectively comes in at just under 5 sq mi.  Until a year or so ago, they operated from 7 stations (6 now) with at least 14 large apparatus and 7 support vehicles.  Collectively, they run less total incidents per year than we do, a percentage of which are automatic mutual aid responses outside their area.  We do very little mutual aid (not by our choice).  We run far more working fires in our city than they do in their collective 1st due.
 
The study didn't really look at "right sizing" the delivery of fire services.  County wide, we average 1 fire station for every 3+ sq miles.  For comparison, PG MD and Fairfax VA average 10+ sq miles for every fire station.  The study didn't really take into account the fact that a more regionalized approach to delivery would reduce the total number of stations & apparatus needed and also result in not needing to replace volunteers on a one for one basis.
 
It didn't really account for other economic factors like you mentioned, insurance ratings and property loss and how they are impacted by volunteer and career delivery models.
 
So while there clearly are savings realized with the volunteers, they aren't necessarily as large as claimed by the study for the above reasons and others.

Did this study ALSO look at the direct cost of "property damage and insurance claims" ? If not, somebody pays for that as the result of not having on duty career firefighters. Actually, my guess is that WE ALL pay for that through our homeowners insurance premiums.
 
Did this study look into the ISO (Insurance Services Office) ratings and insurance cost ? There could be a significant difference in what is paid by home owners, particularly businesses. A business served by a Class 1 fire department will be able to save a significant amount on their fire insurance payments versus a place with perhaps a Class 4 or higher number rating (Class 1 the BEST, Class 10 the WORST). Of course one of the main concerns is water supply. A city with good water mains generally does very well.
 
 Just as a comparison, in Connecticut there are THREE Class 1 Fire Departments, Hartford, New Haven and Milford, Ct. All have a good water supply and that gets high marks. However, all are also served by fully career fire departments.
 
   In the earlier thread of "A Fractured Fire Service Norwich, Ct", that city generally has a good water supply, except for one small area. That city is given a Class 4 rating. Part of the city served by a career fire department and the other part of the city served by five separate volunteer departments.
 
  The difference between Milford, Ct and Norwich, Ct is about 10,000 people more in Milford. However, for the same business to operate, the price for insurance coverage would be quite a difference. Maybe an interesting point to consider when paying your tax bill, how much actually goes to the fire dept, and paying your homeowners insurance bill.

We welcome you back "Update on Stamford Merger'. With almost 308,000 views, 69 pages and 2,065 post, plus this one, this has been NO DOUBT, the most popular, and most interesting thread on this site.
 
It's been awhile since I've made a visit to Stamford. But as I read that letter to the BOR one or two things mentioned particularly caught my attention.
 
One was about the fire apparatus riding right by the volunteer station. I knew that not too long ago, there were two individual mobile homes being used by the Stamford FD. One was used by the members of Engine 8 and I think one was used by the members of Engine 9. I understand the reason those mobile trailers/firehouses had to be put there is because TWO of those volunteer fire companies would NOT allow the career firefighters to operate out of their stations.  Turn of the River Vol Firehouse was one and has about three or four bays in a two story building. I would think there would be enough room for that piece of apparatus (E 8) and the three on duty firefighters. I believe these are within a 1/2 to 1 mile of each other.
 
  The other mobile trailer/firehouse (Engine 9 - ?) is even closer to the other Vol fire house.
 
  Wouldn't it be better to have Eng 8 operating out of TOR Firehouse and Eng 9 operating out of that other volunteer firehouse. That way EVERYBODY would know when the call came in and respond together.
 
  That's just common sense. Just close down those mobile trailer/firehouses and move those two companies into those Volly houses. The only real problem with that is if there is a problem with the career guys, they can be disciplined. But what can be done if there's a problem with the Volunteer guys.
 
  They move into the same firehouse and close down those mobile trailers.
 
  Training is another question I had. Is EVERYBODY really trained to the same level. Yes Firefighter basic level but didn't most of those Stamford guys have to attend some kind of recruit school ?

This is no different than when the Council of Mayors paid Tri-Data to say there was no increased cancer risk to Firefighters. In my city Tri-Data was considered to be the most amazing and knowledgeable and super fantastic fire experts that ever walked the earth. Then it came out that they simply do what they are paid to do. I never trust any study like this because I don't trust the research.  

 
  I can certainly understand how you say that L.I. is fortunate with the members of the fire dept they have. Many of those workers are available due to their work schedules. In addition to that by virtue of the nature of their work, many must maintain some type of minimum fitness level, plus they are geared and trained to deal with various types of emergencies. Long Island is a very special place that has the fortunate option of having many of these NYC workers. They are a part of public servants assigned to work in the most populated city in the United States. Many serving it's citizens under difficult emergency circumstances.
 
 On the contrary, my own brother, a Retired Bridgeport Battalion Chief who rose through the ranks. He fought fires in the busiest companies, during that city's busiest decade for fire duty. When he retired he joined a local volunteer fire department here in Eastern, Ct. He lived right near the firehouse, was available 24/7 and willing to work and give his time. Plus he brought with him years of fire fighting experience from one of the busiest depts in CT. To me, this department had just "Won the Lottery". But that was not the case at all.
 
 Instead many, including the chief, felt threatened and did their best to get rid of him. He was told NOT to touch their Seagrave rearmount ladder. The same kind he had driven for many years as well as was assigned a Lt in charge of busiest ladder co in the city.
 
  One evening a member of the dept was giving a class on that ladder, except when it came time to get the ladder out of the bed, guess who had to show him how to do it. Another time when the ladder had been extended operating at a fire, the operator could not get it back down. It was first thought that there was a mechanical failure of the ladder that's why it wouldn't come down. Guess who was able to get that ladder down in a few short seconds. He was a hero that day, but shortly after he couldn't take it anymore and quit. I imagine most of Long Island does NOT have those kinds of problems.   

Since I am not that well versed in the make up of the paid departments in Westchester, perhaps I could get some clarification from others more familiar with the make up of the various departments involved.
 
It was my understanding that of all the Westchester paid depts Yonkers has the most resources and personnel per apparatus than the other depts.  So, if they are one of your border depts wouldn't it be to your dept's and your citizens best interest to have them on your M/A list?
 
At this particular incident, travel times of your M/A units appears to be moot since the switch to exterior operations occurred 13 minutes after dispatch, 10 minutes after the incident commander declared the 10-75 and just 7 minutes after requesting the 2nd alarm.
 
My other question is how do Pelham and Pelham Manor provide M/A? Don't they both operate just 1+1 with minimal staffing?  When one provides an out of town engine and the other a ladder, do they then do automatic response to each others calls till the M/A is resolved? 
 
 

 
They should start by explaining to them why they are so understaffed that they need 4 departments to put out a house fire. 

 
Totally false (except for them putting Batt 3 in service when one of the other Batt goes out of town).

Total BS.  We have a busy, large enough sandbox of our own to worry about.  
A battalion chief responds anytime more than one unit is toned out, In or Out of the city. Its basically the start of incident command and to protect the members.  So yes, any units out for a duration of time need to be replaced on recalls, including the chief.
When we receive a call for mutual aid, 9 times out of 10, we are requested to the scene.  Not just to cover the fire house.  Sometimes on arrival, the incident commander asks the chief for advice.  
 
So before you start spreading rumors, get the facts straight