Officers qualifications

[ex-commish 490]

In another forum there is a very good discussion on driving how some departments require being a driver before you can be an officer. There are some good opinions both for and against.

I have a question to ponder. Now that NY has a standard for firefighters...FF1 and FF2, what about a standard set for officers and if so what would you recommend as the training criteria? I feel courses in leadsrship and managment, fire behavior, building construction, incident command to start. andone of the most overlooked training course is training officer ( now called instructiona techniques for the company officer).

And I mention this because when I first became a LT I had no formal training on how to teach. Usually company officers are responsible for conducting training yet have no training themsemves on how to do it. ihave to say taking that class helped me alot especially with material preperation. Something to think about.

Other thoughts on this???

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[Geppetto 31]

Statute requires that the Chief is responsible for determining the cause and origin for fires. Granted that that can be done by calling for a C/O team; but it seems logical to require some basics of fire investigation at some level. Company officers can have a definite impact on this.

[firemoose827 324]

Chief, Arent there officer classes? We take Intro to Officer, Fire Officer I & II, and I believe there are more officer training classes at the academy too. We are also required to have Fire Behavior and Arson Awareness, and Principles of Investigation. I have also taken some courses at college in Schenectady like Fire Administration, Firefighting Tactics (Textbook was Normans "Fire Officers Guide To Tactics.") and Fire Investigation with the City of Schenectadys fire Chief as the instructor. They were good classes and I learned a lot from him.

Jonesy

[ex-commish 490]

Chief, Arent there officer classes?  We take Intro to Officer, Fire Officer I & II, and I believe there are more officer training classes at the academy too.  We are also required to have Fire Behavior and Arson Awareness, and Principles of Investigation.  I have also taken some courses at college in Schenectady like Fire Administration, Firefighting Tactics (Textbook was Normans "Fire Officers Guide To Tactics.") and Fire Investigation with the City of Schenectadys fire Chief as the instructor.  They were good classes and I learned a lot from him.

Jonesy

←

JB, yes there are many classes and I am glad to see you are required to have FBAA and PFI. As stated earlier by someone else, the job of determining a cause is up to the chief under state law allthough most of us use ( i know I do) the county C/O team to assist with that task. Like conducting training, cause determinitation is an important function and FBAA also discusses fire behavior.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[Guest]

well todays day and age we can't pick and choose officers. sometimes we have to take what we can get. these people who wish to take officer responsibility need to know what their directing. they should have requirements but be able to work with situations like unforscene vacantcies. a training officer should have tactical expieriance and train the trainer expieriance. prepare people to be officers not just throw them into place. trained personel is the safest and most efficiant. one of the problems that i see and have is retread officers that took classes over 10 - 15 years ago. alot has changed but somethings are also still relavant. one problem that i have in my company is the training officer takes the second due engine to the hydrant. he faces the truck to the scene. what happens when i say we got a hit or working fire. he doesn't understand that when you face the fire and lay in you have to iether turn around after laying or back over the hose you just put down. i presented two options, spot a hydrant and lay out from the scene or stand at a hydrant facing away from the scene. one you keep the road clear for an arrial or other apparatus. two you back up to the scene if an option is there so you don't have to turn around or drive over the hose. time is so precious nowadays we need the people to take the time for training but they can't due to scheduling conflics and availability. in an ideal situation you should have these classes. does it happen is another thing. officers need to take classes but they dont have to be all at once, spead em out so you don't get burnt out. than when their done with captain they are qualified for chief.

[SQDBOSS 6]

Our Department, has had a set standard since the early 90's regarding Officers Training. Before reaching Asst. Chief, a person must have Intro to Fire Officer, Fire Behaivor/Arson Awareness, and Priniciples of Fire Investigation. Were currently looking into adding a CIMS course into the mix as well.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

Good topic Andy. I agree with all the collective observations that have been made by the previous post. I have also noticed in the last few years (perhaps it has been longer) that a lot of the people stepping up to take an officers position are doing so for the status and power that it give them, instead of looking to improve or continue the work their department is doing. You can tell these people by the amount of inacivity during their "term". I'm not limiting this to the Chiefs. I am taking about all officers from the top to bottom. Often I see people get in as a Lieutenant and pretty much take and unmolested ride to the top.

Training is an important part of any operation. If you are set to teach someting, it's a great idea to know it yourself. The career service has a leadership academy that officers attend. Tactics and proceedure are discussed and practiced to name a few things. I think it would be a positive move for the volunteer service to do something similar. Perhaps a condensed version of the classes listed in this forum. Just a thought.

[firecapt32 282]

great topic

I would have to say get back to basics and this will take care of it's self. Departments should have some sort of plan, with each course lined out so that members can see what is expected of them. What ever the Department says it what will deptermine the level of the training.

There are still departments out there without any or at least minimual qualifications for Officers and Chiefs. The fire service should know who these departments .

mabey County Coordiniators should poll their Departments and make some sort of report, as to the qualifications.

That way all departments in that area will know. As a Chief Officer you are assumeing the respponsibility of all memebrs that respond to your callls even if it a mutual aid company. so I thingk you might want to know that level of the Officers coming in to your fire or even better the lever of Officers coming in to protect your citizens while you are fighting a fire. You do want the best for your citizens.

[ajsbear 11]

There are just way too many departments who just put someone in to fill a position with anyone rather than have an opening. How about them 18 Y.O. Lt's. and 23 Y.O. Cheifs.

[Medic137 6]

For departments that run ambulances, and probably have more EMS runs than any other type of call, shouldn't the chief be (at least) an EMT?

[firemoose827 324]

For departments that run ambulances, and probably have more EMS runs than any other type of call, shouldn't the chief be (at least) an EMT?

←

Until I joined this dept, I would have agreed with you 100%. But here, the chief works very closely with the squad capt and vice versa. The chief allows the capt a lot of freedom and doesnt interfere. It is a good working relationship and we rarely have any problems. We have monthly officers meetings and the squad capt is always part of them and has a complete say in matters. Our squad members who arent in the fire dept also, are required to take a watered down version of Basic Firefighter so they know what is happening at fire scene stand-bys. I dont know about other depts, but this one works well together. I do agree with you though, I think that todays chief officers need some type of EMS training.

Jonesy

[Monty 35]

From Putnam County Bureau of Emergency Services

Uniform Training Standards

All Firefighters entering the Fire Service in Putnam County after August 1,2002 must comply with the following training standards:

To receive an Interior Firefighter Accountability Tag, Departments will certify via Interior Firefighter Form that subjects have successfully completed the Basic Firefighter Course,(#91) the Intermediate Firefighter Course (#92) and Firefighter Survival (#87) .

In order to be designated as a Company Officer, 1st Line Supervisor, Lieutenant or individual Fire Department equivalent title, firefighters must successfully complete the following New York State training classes for Level II Firefighter.

Basic Firefighter……………  42 Hrs

Intermediate Firefighter…….  36 Hrs

Hazmat Operations…………. 16 Hrs

Fire Fighter Survival…………09 Hrs

CFR or Equivalent……………78 Hrs

Advanced FF…………………24

AVET…………………………16

Introduction to Fire Officer  (27 Hrs) and one of the following category 2 courses:

ICS (12Hrs), Commanding the Initial Response (12Hrs), HAZMAT Incident Command (24Hrs) Fire Officer I  (21 Hrs)

** OFPC Officer Development class, or NFA Officer Development Course will satisfy requirement for Introduction to Fire Officer and other required Category 2 Officer course.

My Company's qulaification for line officer is two years of active service - or a letter from all the current Line Offficers supporting the candidate! We have no requirements for interior other than a medical - that doesn't include a fit test. But that's another story.

Edited March 21, 2006 by Monty

[firecapt32 282]

Monty

you better change the qualification--as of april 06 ther will no longer be any basic/intermediate/or advanced. firefighter one fighter two are now the standards.

But it looks like a great system.

how did you get the County to adapt that?? How did the departments handle that?

[ex-commish 490]

For departments that run ambulances, and probably have more EMS runs than any other type of call, shouldn't the chief be (at least) an EMT?

←

Monty, first let me say I am a chief and an emt. I do not however feel being a an emt is a necessary criteria for being a chief. On the fireground I am in charge of the incident and am ultimaley responsible for whatever happens. On an ems call, the crew chief in which in some cases is a medic, is in charge of patient care so my rank really has no bearing unless of course there is a safety issue.

My dept does ems and we have dedicated line officers who must be emt's who handle the administrative stuff for ems.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[Monty 35]

Monty

you better change the qualification--as of april 06 ther will no longer be any basic/intermediate/or advanced. firefighter one  fighter two are now the standards.

But it looks like a great system.

how did you get the County to adapt that??  How did the departments handle that?

←

Unfortunately, it's not my County I happened across the web site while I was looking for training courses in adjoining counites (incidentally, Rockland seems to offer the most).

[Guest]

Hey Chief,

Where would I find that training officer course you refer to below

Thanks!

AM

BMFD #327

In another forum there is a very good discussion on driving how some departments require being a driver before you can be an officer. There are some good opinions both for and against.

I have a question to ponder. Now that NY has a standard for firefighters...FF1 and FF2, what about a standard set for officers and if so what would you recommend as the training criteria? I feel courses in leadsrship and managment, fire behavior, building construction, incident command to start. andone of the most overlooked training course is training officer ( now called instructiona techniques for the company officer).

And I mention this because when I first became a LT I had no formal training on how to teach. Usually company officers are responsible for conducting training yet have no training themsemves on how to do it. ihave to say taking that class helped me alot especially with material preperation. Something to think about.

Other thoughts on this???

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

←

[ex-commish 490]

Hey Chief,

Where would I find that training officer course you refer to below

Thanks!

AM

BMFD  #327

←

It is given at the fire academy at Montour Falls. According to the website it is being given on 5/20 and 5/21 and also 11/18 and 11/19.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD