Town Of Greenburgh Volunteer FD Affordable Housing

[exmrvfc 0]

The consolidation of disticts makes sense for a lot of the area departments. It might help if some of the villages and town governments consolidated as well. Unfortunately, we have not gotten to the point where enough people are calling for it. I believe the Pelham Manor local election had a trustee candidate calling for consolidation with Pelham and he lost. Witht he way taxes keep increasing, at some point this issue will be forced into discussion.

[x635 4,066]

Let me make some things clearer here in order to better my point. PLEASE NOTE THAT MY VIEWS PRIMARILY APPLY TO THE TOWN OF GREENBRUGH AND ITS AFFORDABLE HOUSING INTIATIVE.

Greenburgh is made up of the unincorporated town (Greenville, Fairview, Hartsdale), for which the Town Supervisor is mainly responsible for , and several incorporated villages (Ardsley, Hastings, Tarrytown, Dobbs Ferry, Elmsford, Irvington) that have their own mayors, budgets, etc.

It seems every time one of the volunteer firefighters does something good in the VILLAGES, the Town Supervisor lauds their accomplishments. Many times, a "gift" is accompanied by this lauding, whether it's him promising/giving them free access to the town pool, championing their subsidized housing cause, or saying that they should get 10 points on Fire/PD civil service exams......to get this......get more volunteers recruited and retained so we don't have to go career. Huh?

Meanwhile, there are three highly trained, highly motivated, excellent career departments within the incorporated Town Of Greenburgh, that rarely, if ever, get attention from the Town Supervisor. Could it be because the majority of these firefighters don't vote in the town? (Many used to live in the town, but the skyrocketing taxes and housing prices forced them north)

Greenburgh Police provides ALS for the villages using a special program. This comes out of the Town's budget basically, with some payments from the Villages. I'm not sure how this deal works, but this shows if Greenburgh can contract to the villages for EMS and Animal Control services, then they (with the fire districts of course) can figure out a way to provide fire staffing in the villages if ever needed, too..

Anyways, I'm getting a little off my point. With a volunteer department, yes, you are going to get manpower, and in some cases, more then a career department. But having to provide all types of incentives that cost money to accomplish this does not make sense to me.

Having a career department, you will get a defined response at all times.

I admit, at one time I thought housing for vounteers was the best thing on earth. Sure, volunteeers should be able to live where they are serving! After all, we cannot afford housing here!!!! My views on this changed after looking deeper into the real issues.

If volunteers are going to be provided housing, pensions, tax breaks, even in some departments reimbursment for fuel, then volunteer firefighters should have to meet the same exact standards as careeer firefighters, because they are, in a way, being compensated for the job. Not only this, these programs are taking away jobs from the many, many young men and women who are seeking careers as firefighters and only providing a short term, unstable solution to the problem.

True, not every volunteer wants to be a professional/paid firefighter. But in my opinion, this is a profession, and something where it's tough enough keeping up as a career, and I don't see how people do it as a volunteer. I give volunteers a lot of credit. But imagine someone coming into your profession, doing the job for free, getting free or substantially discounted housing for it, tax breaks, etc...not to mention they don't even have to meet the same standards as you do. It's not fair, right? Also, as mentioned being a firefighter nowadays is not the same as it was in 1960....yet there are so many departments living like it is. But that's not what it's about for me.

What this is about is this. I think having a regional or townwide career FD is the future for town. These funds being spent for all these "incentives" to recruit and retain volunteers could be applied to building a career FD. Also, to all the young people who fight for the subsidized housing, put your energy and fight for career positions within your department. These jobs could be YOURS. This, in my opion, is the best long term solution to serving our public.

I guess what I'm getting at is at what point do we draw the line between career and volunteer? Subsidizing Volunteer housing leaves open many issues...what happens when these members who get the housing get older or injured, what happens if they volunteer just for the house, what happens if they decide to move, and what happens when they are away,etc.

Subsidized housing IS NOT the answer to fixing staffing or response problems. Sure, Mr. Town Supervisor, Career Firefighters do cost money, but so do your extensive parks staff and program, $20 million new library, $50,000 a year "Assistant To The Town Council", etc. But when it comes to spending money on issues that truly affect the safety and welfare of the citizens of Greenburgh, seems you just want to take the cheapest/easiest way out, ignore the issue, or give it the attention in the form thats going to get you the most votes.\

And as for the school that thinks that a career FD costs more, chew on this. Add into the fray the amount all these "incentives" cost, then add how much the redundancy in costs having several different FD's with duplicate resources costs.

I AM NOT TRASHING THE VOLUNTEERS AT ALL. I just feel, as Westchester's one of the wealthiest counties in the nation, that we should be taking large, progressive steps NOW towards the future, not applying band aids and other temporary fixes.

Edited November 30, 2006 by x635

[Guest]

Your point is well thought out and well taken. I certainly won't take any of that away from you. However, if you are looking purely at finances then it would take A LOT of incentives to equal the cost of a single career firefighter. Although I'm sure that you do not mean it to be so, but it is slightly offensive to imply that a progressive future only lies with a career department.

I would never argue that nothing can beat a staffed department. It's fantastic to have the ability to come up on a scene in VERY quick order with a crew who's positions are previously defined. However, the ability to justify this cost is usually definied by the fact that in some area the volume of calls is simply too much for a volunteer department to handle or the demographics prevent a solid volunteer core. I do believe that subsidies for volunteers are acceptable, so long as it doesn't get so excessive as to make a career department an accesable budget option. (You might point a finger here at volunteer dept's that buy new chiefs cars every year, buy race cars and have an unreasonable rig replacement schedule.)

One last point: The, "doing your job for free", arguement is just not reasonable. The career fire jobs in this county are not going anywhere and will probobly grow in some areas. The reality is that it is a job that can be done for free by volunteers in areas with limited call volume and other areas where it can't be done for free and requires the existance of a career staffed dept.

There are very serious merits of a career fire dept, but there is legitimacy to volunteer departments as well. In the end the most reasonable way to look at it is, there is a place for both forms of fire department and that includes this county.

It's very easy to envy career firefighters, I do, and it's easy to see that it can be a fantastic job. At the same time I believe in volunteering and volunteer fire departments and support the use of limited incentives to allow people to volunteer. If they become too costly volunteers are too few, time to hire!

[Guest]

I think part of the issue is that these incentives still don't give the public a guaranteed minimum response. So really, your not solving anything - your still stuck with the manpower issues and extended response times.

[ajsbear 11]

Let me make some things clearer here in order to better my point. PLEASE NOTE THAT MY VIEWS PRIMARILY APPLY TO THE TOWN OF GREENBRUGH AND ITS AFFORDABLE HOUSING INTIATIVE.

Greenburgh is made up of the unincorporated town (Greenville, Fairview, Hartsdale), for which the Town Supervisor is mainly responsible for , and several incorporated villages (Ardsley, Hastings, Tarrytown, Dobbs Ferry, Elmsford, Irvington) that have their own mayors, budgets, etc.

It seems every time one of the volunteer firefighters does something good in the VILLAGES, the Town Supervisor lauds their accomplishments.  Many times, a "gift" is accompanied by this lauding, whether it's him promising/giving them free access to the town pool, championing their subsidized housing cause, or saying that they should get 10 points on Fire/PD civil service exams......to get this......get more volunteers recruited and retained so we don't have to go career. Huh?

Meanwhile, there are three highly trained, highly motivated, excellent career departments within the incorporated Town Of Greenburgh, that rarely, if ever, get attention from the Town Supervisor. Could it be because the majority of these firefighters don't vote in the town? (Many used to live in the town, but the skyrocketing taxes and housing prices forced them north)

Greenburgh Police provides ALS for the villages using a special program. This comes out of the Town's budget basically, with some payments from the Villages. I'm not sure how this deal works, but this shows if Greenburgh can contract to the villages for EMS and Animal Control services, then they (with the fire districts of course) can figure out a way to provide fire staffing in the villages if ever needed, too..

Anyways, I'm getting a little off my point. With a volunteer department, yes, you are going to get manpower, and in some cases, more then a career department. But having to provide all types of incentives that cost money to accomplish this does not make sense to me.

Having a career department, you will get a defined response at all times.

I admit, at one time I thought housing for vounteers was the best thing on earth. Sure, volunteeers should be able to live where they are serving! After all, we cannot afford housing here!!!!  My views on this changed after looking deeper into the real issues.

If volunteers are going to be provided housing, pensions, tax breaks, even in some departments reimbursment for fuel, then volunteer firefighters should have to meet the same exact standards as careeer firefighters, because they are, in a way, being compensated for the job.  Not only this, these programs are taking away jobs from the many, many young men and women who are seeking careers as firefighters and only providing a short term, unstable solution to the problem.

True, not every volunteer wants to be a professional/paid firefighter.  But in my opinion, this is a profession, and something where it's tough enough keeping up as a career, and I don't see how people do it as a volunteer. I give volunteers a lot of credit. But imagine someone coming into your profession, doing the job for free, getting free or substantially discounted housing for it,  tax breaks, etc...not to mention they don't even have to meet the same standards as you do. It's not fair, right? Also, as mentioned being a firefighter nowadays is not the same as it was in 1960....yet there are so many departments living like it is. But that's not what it's about for me.

What this is about is this. I think having a regional or townwide career FD is the future for town. These funds being spent for all these "incentives" to recruit and retain volunteers could be applied to building a career FD.  Also, to all the young people who fight for the subsidized housing, put your energy and fight for career positions within your department. These jobs could be YOURS. This, in my opion, is the best long term solution to serving our public.

I guess what I'm getting at is at what point do we draw the line between career and volunteer? Subsidizing Volunteer housing leaves open many issues...what happens when these members who get the housing get older or injured, what happens if they volunteer just for the house, what happens if they decide to move, and what happens when they are away,etc.

Subsidized housing IS NOT the answer to fixing staffing or response problems. Sure, Mr. Town Supervisor, Career Firefighters do cost money, but so do your extensive parks staff and program, $20 million new library, $50,000 a year "Assistant To The Town Council", etc. But when it comes to spending money on issues that truly affect the safety and welfare of the citizens of Greenburgh, seems you just want to take the cheapest/easiest way out, ignore the issue, or give it the attention in the form thats going to get you the most votes.\

And as for the school that thinks that a career FD costs more, chew on this. Add into the fray the amount all these "incentives" cost, then add how much the redundancy in costs having several different FD's with duplicate resources costs.

I AM NOT TRASHING THE VOLUNTEERS AT ALL. I just feel, as Westchester's one of the wealthiest counties in the nation, that we should be taking large, progressive steps NOW towards the future, not applying band aids and other temporary fixes.

←

YOu're sounding more and more like a career FF. The answer here is PAY the Career FF a proper wage and give some sort of tax break to live in the community. Lets not get into the argument giving the volly's incentives now make them paid or they are taking jobs away. How many career FF's have "B" jobs as carpenters, plumbers etc?? Well then you're taking jobs from union men too.

It boils down to making living in these towns and villages affordable. Pay the career guys a decent wage, give some advantages for young people to stay in their community and we would not have a lot of these problems. We all know there is very little affordable housing today for someone starting out. Were can you find a 2 or 3 bedroom house in good shape for $200K or under? $250K? Its all over southern NY. Very little, maybe a co-op? There has been a little falling off of housing prices but not much and lets face it, builders don't make money building cheap homes.

[HFD23 37]

I really don't care to get involved in the argument but I do want to ask all of you so far who have express opinions the following questions.

How do you decide which volunteers get the housing? How cheap is it?

How do they keep it what if they leave the Dept. or what if the 20 year old kid who gets the cheaper house or tax break now is out of college working full time and can’t meet the minimum number of calls or drills? Do you kick them out? Just how much cheaper can you make it? Houses around here cost anywhere from 450,000 up to over 900,000,

There are also depts. that have affordable housing with members who live there and are making a pretty decent amount of money will the member’s income be evaluated every year and if they make to much they are out?

The point is once you start giving these incentives there are a lot of rules to work out. Maybe a minimum number of years with the dept to prevent people who just want a tax break or a cheaper house..

A lot to consider I would like to here some suggestions on these. caz there is no way every one can get cheaper housing

Edited November 30, 2006 by HFD23

[Guest]

I don't think he ever said that the volunteers were taking away career positions - hes simply saying that if a town wants to get better coverage why should they pour thousands into incentives that 1) dont wholly work and 2) are only a temporary fix for the issue (like he said, as it becomes more expensive to live in Westchester means more time @ work and more time w/ the fam and less time to volly). Instead, hes saying that maybe these particular areas need to consider the possibilities of consolidation and eventual installation of career departments which, unlike volunteer departments, can guarantee a minimum and timley response and thus the taxpayer is getting the biggest bang for his/her buck.

Just as a side note, im a big proponent of helping public servants (Cops, FFs and EMS workers, teachers, etc.) reside in the communities they server. I know in Rye Brook, around the time they were wrapping up construction of the Belle Faire community they had reserved a number of houses for teachers, firefighters and police officers. It's a great way to bolster community character and help those who protect our communities solve problems from the outside and inside.

Edited November 30, 2006 by 66Alpha1

[steve shryock 0]

I really don't care to get involved in the argument but I do want to ask all of you so far who have express opinions the following questions.

How do you decide which volunteers get the housing? How cheap is it?

How do they keep it what if they leave the Dept. or what if the 20 year old kid who gets the cheaper house or tax break now is out of college working full time and can’t meet the minimum number of calls or drills? Do you kick them out? Just how much cheaper can you make it?  Houses around here cost anywhere from 450,000 up to over 900,000,

There are also depts. that have affordable housing with members who live there and are making a pretty decent amount of money will the member’s income be evaluated every year and if they make to much they are out?

The point is once you start giving these incentives there are a lot of rules to work out. Maybe a minimum number of years with the dept to prevent people who just want a tax break or a cheaper house..

A lot to consider I would like to here some suggestions on these. caz there is no way every one can get cheaper housing

←

The affordable housing is administered by a local affordable housing committee. The applicants must provide personal financial data for the past few years and the financial guidelines are set bu HUD as is the overall qualifying criteria. It is not a pick & choose deal but one that has the same rules across the board from community to community with variable multipliers for the actual minimum and maximum incomes, depending on the size of the family. A single person is not eligable for a house but an accessory apartment in a house that is part of the program.

As for the Greenburgh Town pool, it is not free. I as a volly in one of the villages may purchase a membership at regular rate, the only incentive is that they are allowing us to join their pool and to pay them.

I do not see any negativity from this topic. It is a wonderful debate and hopefully it may open the eyes of some people who do not have all the facts or who are against CHANGE!. The US Fire service, over 200 years of tradition uninterupted by progress.

[firecapt32 282]

Im back!!! miss me!!!

The Town of Greenburgh does in fact pay the villages(all the villages get money) for fire protection, this money is given to the Villaga and Some(up to 37% may go to the fire department budget) the rest is in the village coffers. If you dont believe me look at the towm budget. so in fact the villages get this fire protection money.

Housing if you lower the taxes or give incentives to volunteer firefighters someone else has to make up that difference---so in fact you are creating a paid department, even to the extent that you are giving them a pension.

There is no system in place that will guarantee manpower day or night.

You can look for a system that might give you a better trained firefighter. Why not pay them to go take classes --milages-incentives for completion and so on collage classes towards a degree, all make better firefighters.

just my thoughts

[steve shryock 0]

Im back!!! miss me!!!

The Town of Greenburgh does in fact pay the villages(all the villages  get money) for fire protection, this money is given to the Villaga and Some(up to 37% may go to the fire department budget) the rest is in the village coffers. If you dont believe me look at the towm budget. so in fact the villages get this fire protection money.

Housing if you lower the taxes or give incentives to volunteer firefighters someone else has to make up that difference---so in fact  you are creating a paid department, even to the extent that you are giving them a pension.

There is no system in place that will guarantee manpower day or night.

You can look for a system that might give you a better trained firefighter. Why not  pay them to go take classes --milages-incentives for completion and so on  collage classes towards a degree, all make better firefighters.

just my thoughts

←

100% accurate. Not only can you review the Town budget but you can probably review the village budgets to see what is allocated where.

[firecapt32 282]

The Town of Greenburgh spends a lot of money---a whle lot of money for fire protection. are they getting their monies worth--not sure but some f.d.'s are gettign a lot of money and doing very little.

[x635 4,066]

Now I'm really interested, because Mr. Feiner has stated to me via email that this housing will be made available to "paid" employees of the town, not just volunteers.

I understand the housing costs are out of control, and something needs to be done to make this town more affordable for us "blue collar workers", but even if I could afford a house in this town, the taxes are INSANE. This town spends money like it grows on trees...literally. They spend on every concievable outllandish thing, with no concious to the taxes in this town.

What I'm truly concerned about is service provided to the citizens, many of which are my friends and family. To tell you the truth, I feel much more comfortable knowing that when I pick up the phone, I know what I am getting (with the exception of EMS at times)

Now, if my tax dollars go to subsidize this housing for both PAID and VOLUNTEERS, what is the end result? I'm very confused?

[antiquefirelt 994]

With the number of houses and apparatus in the Westchester area, like L.I. it seems that (from afar) a regional combination dept. could cut duplication, increase service and still save money. Given the density and money there a PG Co. type dept. seems like a decent model.

But, this is a rarity in most parts of the country. Generally consolidation and regionalization is service driven, not cost savings.

We too have struggled with creating incentives for our POC members becuase the total money allocated for 25 of them is less than the cost of one of our career staff. Of course the POC guys live in town vs. most of the paid personnel who do not. Our guys make enough money to want to buy a house with some grass and trees in the yard, but this is something that cannot be afforded in the town where they work!

[antiquefirelt 994]

Now, if my tax dollars go to subsidize this housing for both PAID and VOLUNTEERS, what is the end result? I'm very confused?

←

Career guys live and vote in the town where they work and pay less, putting more money back in their pockets. Vollies have an incentive to stay and work in the community and are more available for runs. Town makes out by not having to hire more paid staff, but keps the Union somewhat apeased by offering a peace gesture (affordable housing).

And while I'd be very happy to have more personnel per shift in my dept. I know realistically this would not hire enough to fight "the big one". Day to day a few more staff gets the job done more efficiently, ie: smells and bells, FP duties, housework, room and contents. But when there's a big fire and you need lots of help, those extra three guys per shift aren't gonna cut it. The answer is to find a way to get enough career staff to run safely and effieicently (more than 3 per apparatus) to most of the jobs without cutting off the volunteers who back you up.

[firefighter36 52]

I tend to agree with x635, and again it is not to bash or belittle volunteer firefighters. Just as a point, I believe that there is a federal law that says combination fire depts. can compensate volunteer members in the form of stipends, gas reimbursements, etc. for no more than 10% of a career member's salary. These are all incentives aimed at retention of members.

Someone also mentioned NYS Constitution and Countywide Depts. Here in Dutchess, we have tried to have home rule law applied to change that, and cries fell on deaf ears in Albany.

Also, we have had meetings considering consolidation, however, people liked their kingdoms and could not swallow their pride and admit that a problem may exist.

Lets not forget that Cities and Villages, under the NYS constitution are required to provide police, fire, and other services. Towns are not.

I think the root of the staffing and carrer/ vollie issue is that if you work in a department that is understaffed, it is uncomforting to know what you face and how long it may take to get more qualified people there. Personally, I don't care who gets a paycheck, just that my a#$ is covered when something goes down.

I really believe that Countywide Fire and EMS can be a great tool. It can make the best use of career and volunteer personnel, provide ALS transportation, thus solving the concerns that may come along with commercial EMS services (response times, etc.) More importantly, it will get bodies to the scene in a consistant, well organized fashion. That alone can greatly increase public safety.

Good thoughts, and great discussion. Just on a side note, every county north of NYC has more heavy rescues in service that all of NYC... and they probably only run a fraction of calls. Does anyone else find that to be a misappropriation of tax dollars?

[Guest]

I'm going to point out a simple hypacracy here......you are complaining about taxes, and yet you want the municipality to hire more career firefighters and pay them higher wages.

You just can't have it both ways. Fire departments and wages are incredibly expensive. I pay very high taxes plus the additional 5% city tax. Now, part of what I'm getting for my tax money is and incredibly well staffed and outfitted fire department, but the size of the city and the frequency of alarms and working fires makes the cost a no brainer. You have to strike the balance between costs, need and overall operational safety.

Also, I have family that live in places protected by all volunteer departments and I feel very confident in the sevice they are going to recieve. It all depends on the area and the department.

antiquefirelt, your thoughts are very fair.

Edited December 1, 2006 by lfdR1

[x635 4,066]

I'm going to point out a simple hypacracy here......you are complaining about taxes, and yet you want the municipality to hire more career firefighters and pay them higher wages.

←

No, it's not a simple hyprocrisy, you misunderstood. I am complaining about the services that my high taxes pay for. We pay a fortune in Greenburgh, and I (opinion) feel that a lot of money is misspent and/or wasted.

I also never said anything about higher wages.

Nobody ever complains about the cost of police officers, school bus drivers, sanitation workers, teachers, and other professional services we pay for with our taxes. Yet when it comes to hiring firefighters, paramedics, and EMTs, it seems everyone wants to go the cheapest route possible, and rely on a system that, in some places, is obsolete. And the answer to fixing staffing problems is just dumping more money into incentives, with no foresight into future needs.

I'm not getting into a war over whether career or volunteer is better. That's not what this discussion is about. I am talking about subsisidies for housing for volunteers in the busy Town Of Greenburgh, staffing, and resource allocation. For my dollars, I think it would be better spent investing in a long term solution, rather then having my tax dollars paying someone elses mortage. Yes, I am getting a service in return....but I would like to be guarenteed an engine with 4 men who are also EMT's or higher, are physically fit and mature, and held to certain standards with certain consequences. I'm sorry, but I feel solving staffing solutions by giving volunteer FF's housing is a solution filled with holes and potential issues.

Also, I've noticed that the majority of volunteer FF's nowadays is young kids who live at home, with their parents. Because that's all they can afford. I think in Pound Ridge's case, where they bought a rooming house and required certain things from the members living there, is a good example of where a career FD would not be beneficial, and the FD came up with...and implemented....a creative solution to staff their department. I feel the Town Of Greenburgh is a different story altogether.

Edited December 1, 2006 by x635

[firecapt32 282]

if i told you over a million was paid to the towns in greenburgh would you believe me. i might be on the low end go look and see from the town board how much is paid to fire protection districts in the unincorporated town

[Guest]

Okay, understood and I'm sure that, like all municipalities, money is constantly wasted.

Whether you asked for it it or not, I would say that career firefighters (where needed) in general, deserve higher pay than they recieve in many cases.

I know that you're not starting a "who's better debate" and I think it's fantastic that this thread has gone on for a while now with some every incitful comments. This one walks a fine line and I'm glad that it hasn't sunk to a mud slinging debate. Everyone has had solid, well thought out comments and this is proving to be an interesting debate.

[10-Buff-4 0]

I'm not wholly versed in all of this/I haven't followed this, but, I wanted to ask this. Why haven't any Westchester F.D.'s considered a Live-In Program? Live-In Programs are a success and work in busy departments (case in point, Kentland 33 in Maryland). Just my two cents.

-Joe DA BUFF

[Dr. Zuki 1]

How much for the apartment upstairs at the Candelight?

Looks cozy!!