NJ Investigates Borough's Fire Truck Purchases

[Guest]

NJ Investigates Borough's Fire Truck Purchases

SCOTT FALLON

The Record (Bergen County, NJ)

BOGOTA - State investigators want information on the borough's recent purchase of two new firetrucks, a transaction that the mayor claimed was rife with bid-rigging.

In a May 31 letter to the borough, a lawyer for the State Commission of Investigation said the agency was looking into "procurement practices" of towns when they buy fire- trucks.

The letter, sent in lieu of a subpoena, asked for 12 items, including names of all vendors who submitted bids, qualifications, quotes and specification for firetrucks since Jan. 1, 2006.

A spokeswoman for the SCI would not comment on whether the investigation focused solely on Bogota.

In April, the council unanimously accepted a Wisconsin-based company's price of $799,879 for two pumper trucks. Voters in November approved spending up to $800,000 for the trucks.

But Mayor Steve Lonegan, who requested the investigation, said volunteer firefighters violated state bidding laws because they drafted the bid specifications narrowly to steer the contract to Pierce Manufacturing.

Council President Joe Noto would not comment on the investigation Monday since he had not seen the letter. But he maintained there was nothing untoward about the bidding.

"The specifications were approved by the town before they were sent out," Noto said. "There was nothing wrong with this."

Fire Chief Eugene Stipo could not be reached for comment.

Lonegan said he wants the firetrucks but believes the town could save a lot of money if it went with another company.

"It's the old thing, you have to buy the volunteers their toys," he said. "You don't. I have to bust my chops to save taxpayers $5,000 to $10,000. We could have $160,000, $170,000 in savings with this."

The borough had initially received a bid from Pierce but rejected it at Lonegan's urging. Ferrara Fire Apparatus of Louisiana then submitted a bid of $671,914, but it was rejected for lacking information. Firefighters then prepared a report showing that Pierce's bid met the town's needs best.

[hudson144 150]

AMEN -Happens here in westchester all the time! class A pumpers for $500,000??? Its not the bells and whistles or LED lights that put out the fires. Amazing what does go on without anyone saying a word! have fun with this one.-hudson

[AndyC3J 190]

How much of that price tag is "bells, whistles and LEDs", and how much is equipment? There's a Seagrave pumper up here in this area that weighed in at over half a mil, and the full compliment of equipment on the rig was included in that price. The cost of the truck by itself, I do not know. Does not appear to be a "parade pony", either. Oh, it looks nice, but it's not a "whacker-mobile".

Edited June 5, 2007 by AndyC3J

[x635 4,066]

I absolutely agree this happens, and it's not right. BUT....the whole low bid sytem needs to be overhauled, because you do get what you pay for.

But, the specs being written by dealers needs to end, and utilization of objective "apparatus architects" who can design the best apparatus for the department and make it so a few different manufacturers can bid needs to be a standard practice.

Also, fleet standardization is also a consideration.

[Oswegowind 17]

I know that sealed bid is the key...but how many times do you hear...oh we're getting a so and so and it has not even been set out to bid yet. I know this is the same with ambulances...Oh, we are getting a PL Custom so we are just going to go through the motions and have everyone visit us!

Understandably there has to be specifications but they have to be flexible...unless it makes it unsafe or inoperable!

[e290l103 3]

there's much more to this than what was in the paper. much more. the rigs in question are no frills engines. thats all I will say on a public forum.

[DCurtis 1]

Good thing they didnt go with Ferrara, that would have been a world of unnessesary pain.

[Guest partyrock]

I've said this before in other threads and I'll say it again, low bid is not the problem. It ensures competitive pricing. You creat a spec for a great rig and you will get a great rig. Make your specs performance and strength specific and keep them rigid. Do the process right, use people who know what they're doing and while your truck may not have the name you want it will do the job. It might even leave you money to load up on all the bells and whistles.

DCurtis, I'm assuming you're in PFD. Quick question...how many of the rigs problems are from the factory and how many are from private vendor modifications and the repair shops?

[Guest]

As some stated earlier, it is not just an FD thing, it happens everywhere. If you write a bid spec so narrow that it limits the bidding process, then that is what you get. For the most part the engine/drivetrain/pump are the same no matter who you buy the vehicle from. The cost is in the finish and quality of the finished product...cab and body. If you spend 200k on a truck that lasts 10 years or 350k on one that lasts 20 years, what did you really save on the 200k truck.

Of course a Johnnie Come Lately company will bid low in comparison to everyone else, but when the close their doors a few years after you purchase, then what happens?

Ultimately, you get what you pay for.

I do know that the all LED lighting package on our new tower was about $7600...not a big chunk of change bell and whistle item. We even used a 1974 Q2 (Nice and f'n loud) had it rebuilt and re-chromed for $350 and slapped it on the front bumper. It wasn't the most expensive aerial built by the manufacturer, but nice enough to make the company's 2006 calender.

E290...I tend to agree with you on that there is more to this story then what is being printed.

[Remember585 815]

We recently received a "Wisconsin born" apparatus which came in at a price of around $480K.

Bells and whistles? Not really. To be honest, nothing on the rig was put there without good consideration. I will make this comment - I'm not a huge fan of the FRC gauges, the flowmeters rarely seem to work / work right. That's an item I could live without in the end.

What we got was a rig with all stainless construction that should last us almost 30 years. It has a Waterous 1500 gpm pump, 750 gallon tank, 10KW hydraulic generator, 4000 watts of floodlights and a hydraulic ladder rack. Other then that, nothing spectacular. The rig is solid, dependable and most importantly, perfect for our needs.

Personally I can't believe how much this stuff costs - I know of an ambulance being bought for over $160K!!! I think it is getting to a point that between the NFPA recommendations, DOT compliances and materials costs it won't be long until a simple pumper/engine is going to cost $500K with almost nothing on it.

[Guest]

Good thing they didnt go with Ferrara, that would have been a world of unnessesary pain.

←

I totally agree how could they even spec a Ferrara?? Even if they look at the newer chassis the Velocity or Impel id stick with pierce..

[Guest]

Even something like this for bogota will do!!

[RWC130 594]

They drafted the bid specifications narrowly to steer the contract to....

SAY IT AINT SO! lol

[EJS1810 7]

"It's the old thing, you have to buy the volunteers their toys," he said. "You don't. I have to bust my chops to save taxpayers $5,000 to $10,000. We could have $160,000, $170,000 in savings with this."

Sounds like the Mayor might have some issues with the Fire Department to begin with

Edited June 6, 2007 by EJS1810

[LED138 10]

Even something like this for bogota will do!!

←

Are you kidding me? Just because something works in one town, doesnt mean it will work for another... Theres another town that had the same thought as that.....

[Guest]

LED...actually, the folks in Trenton listed standardization of fire apparatus purchases as a target item for the Comptroller position the Gov established. I wish I had the whole story for you...But it appears they want to create a list of equipment pre-authorized for purchase and that is what you get to chose from. If it actually happens...who knows.

[LED138 10]

I'd love to see it. If there is one thing that wont happen up in Bergen County is having the FD's being told that they only have the option to purchase what the State offers. Everyone wants their toys and have their own opinions on them. It also opens the State up to some issues like, who will be manufacturer? Its not like buying a police car where you have Ford, Chevy or Dodge. There are a lot of good manufacturers out there. I mean for a town that has had nothing but problems with a Pierce to be told that you have to buy a Pierce because thats what we want is obsurd. But, NJ is good for some pretty screwy things.....................

Edited June 16, 2007 by LED138

[vodoly 535]

i think they ((bogota fd ) have enuff votes to get mayor out of office next electon I saty stay tuned this is far from over LOL watch both bidders lose out next time

[antiquefirelt 994]

For those who just spec a Peirce (or any other single manufacturer) you are not spending the taxpayer dollars wisely. If you can spec what your dept. needs, and keep the specs generic enough that 3 or 4 companies will bid, you'll find that Peirce will cost alot more than most others. Are they nice? Yes. Are they better built than many? Yes. Are they better built than any other? No. There are some great builders and some crappy ones. Peirce is outpricing itself because of the whackers who think their the only decent trucks on the market. With hundreds of depts who just spec and buy Peirce the price will continue to grow. On our tower bid they were over $100k more than three others and nearly equal to Aerialscope to which they are far from equal! Hell the owner of the Peirce dealer told us we had to want a Peirce because it was a Peirce! What a joke! IMO the Peirce badge is the most expensive of all "bells and whistles". Show me Peirce bought on low bid and I'll show you a spec that only they could meet.

Design the truck/engine/rescue to meet your community. Then compare it to a stock truck or a big city bid spec, if your close enough to either, you might save some dough tacking on to an order and keeping changes to a minimum. If not continue below.

Go an look at apparatus similar to what you've "designed". Who does what well. What works, what would people change? Ask about the dealers, who gives good service?

Write specs that meet your needs. Have them proof read to ensure there are not manufacturer specific items, or keep these to a minimum and allow others to meet or exceed with an option that must be explained. Remember you should want numerous bids, this keeps the price down. Do not leave gray areas. If turning radius is important make them tell you the turning radius in the same manner.

Go to bid with manufacturers who can build and service the apparatus in an efficient manner.

Take the time to review the bids, line for line. Choose the one that closest meets you spec at the best price. Document why others failed to meet critical points. Heavily weigh who can service the apparatus the best. Everyone has issues, its timely service without a hassle that ensures your happiness.

Award the bid, enjoy your new truck. When the auditor comes to question your process you'll have no issues. And the taxpayers will appreciate your looking out for their wallets.

Low bid does not mean low quality, it means you must do your homework and write quality specs.

[DR104 141]

AMEN -Happens here in westchester all the time! class A pumpers for $500,000??? Its not the bells and whistles or LED  lights that put out the fires. Amazing what does go on without anyone saying a word! have fun with this one.-hudson

←

You said it Hudson!!!! The Dept that i work for got two pumpers for a combine price around $300,000-375.000. Nothing speacial just plane Jane pumpers that do what they are made to do, gets us to the call and pumps.(MEETS ARE SPECS TOO)It was a package deal with another piece off appartus. AND ALL THREE OF THEM ARE PEIRCE APPARTUS

[Guest]

Adding to what antique listed, I have found a large part of the price can be attributed to change orders during the build. This comes from folks not doing their homework BEFORE going to bid. Documenting your "Homework sessions" as a record of due diligence is never a bad idea.

When we built our new tower (replacing an existing one), we spent about 18 months in committee prior to going to bid. We looked at several manufacturers, tested several, took a ton of pictures and kept notes on what we liked and didn't. We visited other depts, asked what they did and didn't like and what they would do different. Being we were replacing a vehicle we had for 20 years, we knew what we wanted and what we didn't.

We published an RFI (Request for information) prior to bid. This non-committal process gets manufacturers to put on paper things you want to know about what ever...It saved us some money and pain in the end.

Also, the committee has to be made up of the right people. A committee of ex-chiefs who will never operate the vehicle are the wrong people for a committee. The committee needs someone with bid/RFP experience, someone with good project management experience and someone with a set of stones to call the builder out when they think they are getting BS'd.

Edited June 18, 2007 by FFD55

[hudson144 150]

a pumper can be bought off the floor at a show for about $340k and can be used in any dept here in westchester. as long as the water flows it will serve the taxpayers. come on- its not like fires are burning every minute here. even the bussiest depts can put a no frills engine in service and get their $$$ worth. alot of overkill and useless spending.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Adding to what antique listed, I have found a large part of the price can be attributed to change orders during the build.  This comes from folks not doing their homework BEFORE going to bid. Documenting your "Homework sessions" as a record of due diligence is never a bad idea.

Good point! We found that change orders come easy at the factory for tons of things. After spending 18-24 months of speccing we found we still didn't know everything on the market. These changes can be very costly and if not done at specific intervals the change order charge regardless of change adds big bucks. Ex: to change a pair of side boat dock style lights would have added $900 for a $125 job due to missing the correct deadline for changes. In the end we saved money on change orders as we cut many things out once we saw trucks on the production line.

BTW FFD55 what did you buy for a tower?

[Guest]

FFD55 what did you buy for a tower

We replaced a Duplex/LTI with a Pierce. You can search 15956 on their web site. It was also the December 2006 calender truck.

I went into the process as a pro-LTI person because the outgoing truck served us well. During our 2nd of 3 factory meetings, I was satisfied we were getting the correct vehicle. We finished not 1 cent over the original bid.

Not to say there wasn't some give and take during the build. Some things were eliminated/changed during the build as they would have proven to be either ineffective or maintenance nightmares. There are a few things we could have done differently, but they weren't major items. There were a few chokes by the builder, some they stepped up to right up front, some were small things found during the build.

[ny10570 745]

a pumper can be bought off the floor at a show for about $340k and can be used in any dept here in westchester. as long as the water flows it will serve the taxpayers. come on- its not like fires are burning every minute here. even the bussiest depts can put a no frills engine in service and get their $$$ worth. alot of overkill and useless spending.

←

Be careful about buying off the floor. Ask a few members here in Pleasantville about how much the like their ladder. I've heard gripes from a few other depts as well about rigs that are either problem plagued or just don't work for their dept.